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Why Did AA Abandon The Denver Hub  
User currently offlineAAden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 835 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9110 times:

why did AA abandon their denver hub? with their agressive tactics I would of thought that they would of stayed to fight it out with united.

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9100 times:

AA had a hub in DEN???

I must have missed that part.

Sure you don't mean CO???


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9083 times:

Quoting AAden (Thread starter):
why did AA abandon their denver hub? with their agressive tactics I would of thought that they would of stayed to fight it out with united.

AA never had a DEN hub. It was proposed when DIA was first being planned, but that was when the original Frontier was going through financial problems and was in the process of being shopped around. AA had nearly made a codeshare/alliance deal with FL (the original code) but Frank Lorenzo stepped in and basically told AA "don't mess with my turf, I won't mess with yours." AA then abandoned the idea of partnering/acquiring FL.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26534 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9047 times:

They probably abandoned it because they never had one. CO, FL (the old Frontier and UA all had significant operations at Stapleton. When the switch to DIA was made, CO decided that the cost structure wasn't going to work for them and they bailed. That is what left the vaccum that begat the founding of the current Frontier (F9), which had a lot of influence from the old one.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8999 times:
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AA never had a hub in Denver, Continental did, at least they did until 1995, when DIA opened, then continental, which had already beaten United to the punch by getting the leasing rights to the A concourse, basically pulled out of every market they served from denver except clevelend, houston and Newark. They had a pretty sizeable operation here, including express service, and took something like 1600 jobs with them when they left. From what i understand,they pretty well pulled out in disgust. I think continental's willingness to keep their hub in denver was partly contingent on their ability to keep their maintenance base at Stapleton open, from what i understand there was a lawsuit at some point in the past over aircraft noise affecting certain mostly low income neighborhoods near the airport, and the claimants agreed to settle on the condition that Stapleton be shut down when DIA opened. Continental approached the settlement class and asked for a waiver so they could fly like 12 flights a month into Stapleton for maintenance purposes, but two members of the class basically told continental to go pound sand, since the waiver had to be unanimous, and these two basically pig headed people refused to vote to waive, continental was out of luck and took it's hub and alot of jobs elsewhere.


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8927 times:

I guess we can assume from the above answers, that AA never had a hub in Denver?

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Are you thinking of TWA? they had a hub at Stapleton in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Braniff also built Denver up in the late 70s only to pull it back pretty quickly.

[Edited 2006-04-18 20:45:49]

User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3829 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8431 times:

Here's some more info on AA's -proposed- hub at DEN in the 1980's. It's mentioned in a page that deals with the last days of the original Frontier written by one of Frontier's pilots back in 1987 on the first anniversary of Frontier's cessation of operations.

While we felt our ESOP would be successful because O'Gorman had worked a deal with Bob Crandall and American Airlines through an alliance, we would need a buyer willing to out bid Lorenzo.

Crandall was interested. O'Gorman sent Vice-Chairman Doug Bader and myself to DFW for a 3 hour meeting with the Allied pilots. The purpose of this meeting was to see if the APA pilots would help bring a group of ALPA pilots on board with American. The meeting lasted nearly all night. It was a positive meeting. Hank Duffy, ALPA president, called from an IFALPA conference in Sweden saying he would roll out the red carpet if the Frontier pilots wanted to go with American.

The next day, a Saturday, Doug and I boarded an American 727 for Denver with good feelings about our meeting. We met Mr. and Mrs. Bob Crandall on board who were traveling to Denver for a retirement party for some American pilots. Crandall sitting next to us across the isle, leaned over and said: "you know we have to have this deal done by Tuesday don't you?" I replied:"Yes sir! We had a good meeting with your pilot leadership, and feel there will be no problem moving forward."

That was the last we heard from Crandall. On Sunday I called O'Gorman to report on the trip and my brief conversation with Crandall. Joe then asked me to meet him in his office Monday around noon.

Monday 8:00 AM O'Gorman called to ask me to restate that which I had reported to him the day before. I restated this and then asked what was up. O'Gorman said he had been unable to contact Crandall. He felt Crandall was refusing his calls and was not returning them either.

The American deal was dead. Fred Vogel, president of APA, later informed me of a meeting called by American upper management Sunday. He said the feelings were this would be the "announcement."

Nothing happened and the meeting broke up.

Speculation was that Lorenzo got to Crandall and reminded him of a few things. Things possibly like "I won't play in your back yard if you don't play in mine."

American had announced big plans in the Denver market. No such plans exist today. Continental, while expanding into many back yards hasn't done so in American's two new hub operations. If this speculation is true, you can bet it wasn't done on the telephone... (ref: the conversation between Crandall and Braniff's Lawerence that caused a major public uproar a few years prior).

The above website is heavily slanted toward's the writer's views (and he's quite passionate about them  Smile ) and I don't know how accurate his entire account is, but I thought it was still interesting and provides some background on what was going on at DEN back then.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26534 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8413 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 7):
(ref: the conversation between Crandall and Braniff's Lawerence that caused a major public uproar a few years prior).



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 7):
The above website is heavily slanted toward's the writer's views

The above website also was inaccurate about certain things. The recorded phone conversation between Braniff and American was between Bob Crandall and Howard Putnam, not Harding Lawrence. AA was also convicted of an antitrust violation



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9215 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8374 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 4):
I think continental's willingness to keep their hub in denver was partly contingent on their ability to keep their maintenance base at Stapleton open, from what i understand there was a lawsuit at some point in the past over aircraft noise affecting certain mostly low income neighborhoods near the airport, and the claimants agreed to settle on the condition that Stapleton be shut down when DIA opened. Continental approached the settlement class and asked for a waiver so they could fly like 12 flights a month into Stapleton for maintenance purposes, but two members of the class basically told continental to go pound sand, since the waiver had to be unanimous, and these two basically pig headed people refused to vote to waive, continental was out of luck and took it's hub and alot of jobs elsewhere.

That was unfortunate for CO at DEN. It seems as though they had a healthy presence there and were very happy with their service. At least DEN has a sizeable UA hub and the home fortress of F9 though... How many flights do UA and F9 operate daily there? Sorry to get a little off subject here...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8274 times:

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 6):
Are you thinking of TWA? they had a hub at Stapleton in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Braniff also built Denver up in the late 70s only to pull it back pretty quickly.

TWA never had a hub in Denver in the 1970s/early 1980s. In fact, TWA had no hubs. That was their problem after deregulation started. They had sizeable operations at many cities (DEN included) but no hubs. When they realized they needed hubs they built up STL and JFK.

As for Braniff, they also never had a hub in DEN and never built up DEN either. Outside of DFW they only had a secondary hub in Kansas City, which at its peak only had about 50 flights. I'd need to look at my Braniff timetables, but I believe they only had about 15-20 DEN flights.


User currently offlineDolphinflyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 201 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

AA toyed with the idea of a DEN hub in the late-80s/early-90s, but it never materialized. Clearly the close geographic proximity of DFW and DEN played a key factor in killing the idea, as would be potential duplicative service via the ORD/DFW/DEN hubs on east/west routings.

Quoting AAden (Thread starter):
agressive tactics

This quote I've got to question. Of late, AA seems to be turning tail and running whenever the competition (esp. LCC) puts up a fight: BOS-SEA, BOS-SJC, JFK-SJC, etc. Need I go on?

It's sad to see AA increasingly putting all of their eggs in too few baskets. Their retrenchment to the core hubs (DFW/ORD/MIA) and downsizing of former focus cities (BOS/JFK/RDU/SJC) leaves them increasingly vulnerable. AS seems to have been able to figure out how to compete with WN on the West Coast. Why can't AA also figure out a way to compete against WN/B6, etc. in certain markets?


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8208 times:

Quoting Dolphinflyer (Reply 11):
It's sad to see AA increasingly putting all of their eggs in too few baskets. Their retrenchment to the core hubs (DFW/ORD/MIA) and downsizing of former focus cities (BOS/JFK/RDU/SJC) leaves them increasingly vulnerable. AS seems to have been able to figure out how to compete with WN on the West Coast. Why can't AA also figure out a way to compete against WN/B6, etc. in certain markets?

I don't view AA's retrenchment to its hubs as being "afraid" of competing with LCCs. They're just placing the planes where they think they can make more money. When AA pulled the plug on BNA and RDU, they retrenched to ORD, DFW, and built up MIA. It's a better use of resources than trying risky point-to-point service that doesn't necessarily have a chance of working out. I would consider LAX and NYC to be large stations for AA anyway, they have a huge FF base in New York and have a sizeable one in LA as well. They just choose to fly the most profitable service, instead of risky ventures.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineBrick From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1588 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

Quoting AAden (Thread starter):
why did AA abandon their denver hub? with their agressive tactics I would of thought that they would of stayed to fight it out with united.

Are you referring to American's "Strengthen the West" campaign back in 2000 or 2001? That's when they added DEN-SJC, DEN-SFO, and DEN-LAX flights. They may have even been a DEN-RNO flight in there as well. Only the DEN-LAX route survives to this day.



A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 4):
I think continental's willingness to keep their hub in Denver was partly contingent on their ability to keep their maintenance base at Stapleton open, from what i understand there was a lawsuit at some point in the past over aircraft noise affecting certain mostly low income neighborhoods near the airport, and the claimants agreed to settle on the condition that Stapleton be shut down when DIA opened. Continental approached the settlement class and asked for a waiver so they could fly like 12 flights a month into Stapleton for maintenance purposes, but two members of the class basically told continental to go pound sand, since the waiver had to be unanimous, and these two basically pig headed people refused to vote to waive, continental was out of luck and took it's hub and alot of jobs elsewhere.

There is also one fact I think I remember from this since my Father lost his job due to the pull out..... CO wanted to keep Stapleton open for Maintenance but they also said that they were only going to take off and land on the North South Runway (the number escapes me) that would send aircraft off the barren land of the Rocky Mtn. Arsenal also the aircraft Run-up's would also be done on the north end of the field.. but yet again some one forgot that in Denver if you are facing the Mtn's you are looking WEST and not north... But look at it now insted of a maintenance base with few flights and small work force they now have a huge shopping complex and houses on the way with all the increase in traffic and noise that comes with it.. now which one was worse?

Fly & Work Safe
-Carl



If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11695 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8054 times:

Quoting Brick (Reply 13):
That's when they added DEN-SJC, DEN-SFO, and DEN-LAX flights.

AA never flew DEN-SFO, and never flew DFW-RNO, even right after the Reno merger. AA did indeed fly DEN-SJC, but that was cut after 9/11.


User currently offlineTWAL1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8043 times:

So how many flights a day did the AA hub have. What types of planes did they use. DC-10's 747's? How many cities. Did they fly to LHR from there? Were their flight attendants and pilots based there. It must have been great to see all the AA tails in Denever Stapleton.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11695 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8035 times:

Quoting TWAL1011 (Reply 16):
So how many flights a day did the AA hub have. What types of planes did they use. DC-10's 747's? How many cities. Did they fly to LHR from there? Were their flight attendants and pilots based there. It must have been great to see all the AA tails in Denever Stapleton.

AA never had a base in Denver -- Stapleton or International.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4079 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
AA never had a DEN hub. It was proposed when DIA was first being planned, but that was when the original Frontier was going through financial problems and was in the process of being shopped around. AA had nearly made a codeshare/alliance deal with FL (the original code) but Frank Lorenzo stepped in and basically told AA "don't mess with my turf, I won't mess with yours." AA then abandoned the idea of partnering/acquiring FL.

When DIA was proposed and started being built in the late 1980's, not only did then Denver Mayor Federico Pena (later USDOT Sec under Clinton) want AA to start a hub there, but he also wanted DL to move their hub over from SLC. Pena wanted to justify the cost of such a large public works project by being the one and only large regional hub in the Mountain Time Zone.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineTWAL1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

So no base? Did that mean all the pilots and stewardesses had to keep flying in from the other hubs. They must have been pretty busy flying in and out because AA had a hub there. That doesn't sound right. They must have had a base because they would need so many pilots and stewardess esp because AA had lots of flights and I am sure they were international. Did they fly them nonstop to San Juan hub and Honolulu from there? Wow United hob is probably nothing in comparison to the good old days.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
AA never had a base in Denver -- Stapleton or International.


User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7334 times:

Quoting TWAL1011 (Reply 19):
So no base? Did that mean all the pilots and stewardesses had to keep flying in from the other hubs. They must have been pretty busy flying in and out because AA had a hub there. That doesn't sound right.

AA has NEVER had a HUB at Denver, period. The only airlines to have a hub at Denver are United, Continental (until '95) and Frontier (current version and earlier version from the 80's). AA again, has never had a hub in Denver. The only hubs they have had are DFW, ORD, MIA, STL (after TWA buyout), and the defunct hubs of BNA, SJC and RDU.

[Edited 2006-04-19 02:13:12]

User currently offlineBNinMSY From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7189 times:

AA has flown DFW RNO for years.... today they offer 3 nonstops a day from DFW.

"AA never flew DEN-SFO, and never flew DFW-RNO, even right after the Reno merger. AA did indeed fly DEN-SJC, but that was cut after 9/11."


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11695 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7105 times:

Quoting BNinMSY (Reply 21):
"AA never flew DEN-SFO, and never flew DFW-RNO, even right after the Reno merger. AA did indeed fly DEN-SJC, but that was cut after 9/11."

I meant DEN-RNO, in response to the post in reply 13. It was a typo.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 20):
The only airlines to have a hub at Denver are United, Continental (until '95) and Frontier (current version and earlier version from the 80's).

And then there was Western.

While it was prior to hubs being in vogue, Western did have a goodsize operation at Denver-Stapleton.

Off the top of my head, there were nonstops to: SFO, LAX, MSP, RAP, PHX, SLC, YYC, BIL, FSD and SHR....it's been awhile so my recollection is a little rusty.

Not a hub, not a focus-city, but still, one of Western's more important markets of the day, before Berg focused 80% of the capacity around SLC.



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User currently offlineDIA77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 705 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6923 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 23):
Off the top of my head, there were nonstops to: SFO, LAX, MSP, RAP, PHX, SLC, YYC, BIL, FSD and SHR....it's been awhile so my recollection is a little rusty.

Western was also the first airline to fly DEN-LGW.

TWA also had hub level operations from Denver in 1981:
http://www.airchive.com/Timetables%2...aps/TWA%20Compressed/TWmap8110.jpg


25 Post contains images CitationJet : AAden, how did you pick your username? Why is everyone convinced that AA had a hub in DEN? AA didn't even fly to Denver until sometime after January
26 Christao17 : Don't think it is everyone. Just TWAL1011.
27 CitationJet : A search of the A.net photo database shows no AA 767s, no AA 757s, no AA 747s, and one photo of an AA DC-10 (DEN-ORD) in Stapleton.
28 American 767 : American flew mostly 727's to Stapleton, and maybe S80's and DC-10-10's from time to time. No I don't think American ever had a hub in Denver. Ben Sor
29 TWAL1011 : This must have been one of those hubs they shut down like Nashville and San Jose when they started Reno Air.
30 Commavia : First off, BNA had absolutely nothing to do with Reno Air. Nashville was shut down in 1995, followed by RDU in 1996, long before the Reno Air merger
31 TWAL1011 : Then it must have been part of the shut-down with the Raleigh/Durham hub when they started Midway Airlines. AA must have been strong in the west with
32 Post contains images Nosedive : Flights were between i^3 and pi^8. Back then, AA wanted all pax to know algebra. As for planes Boeing 2707s ONLY. 50 cities served on a tri-annual ba
33 Commavia : Is this a joke?
34 Nosedive : Did they have American Eagle he asks... DUDE YOU COULD FLY ON A REAL EAGLE FROM DENVER! Um, duh?
35 TWAL1011 : No it's not a joke. Maybe you don't remember why American Airlines changed its corporate name to AMR because it owned American, Midway and Reno. I th
36 USPIT10L : Methinks we have another MalpensaSFO/Kahala747/lhr001 on our hands, brothers. Check out his profile. I'm recommending deletion.
37 FLFlyGuy : TWAL1011 doesn't listen very well, does he?
38 Stirling : AMR came about in 1982....long before Midway or Reno. Hey let's start an airline in Denver, and call it RenoAir! Yeah. Idiot.
39 FoxBravo : Indeed. Just ignore the troll and it will go away.
40 TWAL1011 : No they started the airline in Reno. I think it was when the shut down their Denver hub. They still wanted the traffic in the west. So they opened an
41 Jmy007 : This has to be a joke. AA never hubbed in Denver. NEVER. Denver is/and was- United, Frontier (former/ current), and Continental country. Why must you
42 USPIT10L : From an AA fact sheet/history dated 1994 1982: On May 19, stockholders voted to approve a plan of reorganization, under which a new holding company,
43 Post contains links Gr8SlvrFlt : Western had a fairly sizeable Denver operation as well. It was Western that flew the Denver to London route. http://www.airchive.com/Timetables%2...We
44 Gman3 : Why and when did United close down their hub at DFW?? With the sizeable growth it had, I am surprised we retreated from there.
45 Post contains images USPIT10L : Ha. Ha. very funny.
46 Post contains images Boeingfanyyz : AA has never really enriched themselves in the DEN market. If AA would do a LAX/JFK-DEN and then continue on to Aspen or Vail, they could potentialy h
47 Texan : Are you suggesting that Reno Air was a subsidiary of AA from the start? The idea of an airline within an airline has been floated around inside of AA
48 Post contains images Jmy007 : !?!?!?!?!?? I understand that this is your opinion. How often do you travel through DEN or use the main terminal. Please elaborate.... DIA's Jeppsen
49 Post contains images Steeler83 : Man, after so many of yins guys insisted that DEN did not have an AA hub there, ever, and provided substantial proof that it did not, why did he keep
50 TWAL1011 : I never said there was a hub there. The original poster did. I was just asking questions. Nobody has given me any credible proof that a hub didn't ex
51 FoxBravo : That's sound advice, but the thing is, TWAL1011 knows he's wrong. He's just doing this to get a rise out of people, and unfortunately it's working. I
52 Steeler83 : In PIT? no there was no hub there - technically... They did have a massive operation there, some 50 daily flights I believe in the mid 1970s and many
53 AirEMS : I thought the biggest gripe about DIA is the cost to operate there... Landing and gate fees etc... I don't think it had anything to do with facilitie
54 CitationJet : It is hard to generate proof that something didn't exist because there is nothing available to document it. There are no articles or websites that an
55 CO767FA : And that amount is as out of line as the rest of your comment. What does the architecture of DIA have to do with airlines doing business? As another
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