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United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 15815 times:

ZURICH, Switzerland -- Fresh out of bankruptcy, United Airlines, the world's second-largest airline, is not going to buy new jets from The Boeing Co. or Airbus any time soon.

But when it does, Boeing's 787 Dreamliner would be a good addition to United's fleet, as might Boeing's bigger jumbo jet, the 747-8, said Glenn Tilton, United's chief executive.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/267152_air19.html

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 15790 times:

I thought this comment at the end was very telling and the steal of the entire article:

"I have not been able to see it," Tilton said when asked if the A380 has a future with United.

If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6959 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15724 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

Really? More so than BA or Cathay? What about Asiana or SAA? One or both of the Taiwanese airlines? Air China? Air India, indeed? Never mind the two Japanese airlines...

I would have had UA someway down the list with several of these higher. Remember that UA is something of an exception among American carriers in flying 747s. AA doesn't. DL doesn't. CO doesn't.

There are still plenty of potential A380 operators out there without UA.


User currently offlineMaartenV From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15651 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

So that means that just NW is left as possible US customer for the passenger version of the A380?

Didn't some Airbus official say, when United was still in bankruptcy, that United would return to profitability and buy the A380? This is a dissapointment for Airbus and good news for Boeing, since they are more likely to go with the 787 and the 748i then the 350 and A380.

Can we expect United to order all, or maybe 3 out of 4 versions of the 787.
787-3, To replace domestic 767s (do they still fly the 767 on domestic routes) and 757s.
787-8, To replace international 767-322ER's
787-9, For routes that fall in between the 777 and the 763 right now. (I'm not really sure about this one...)
787-10, to replace their oldest 777s, which will turn 20, when they will probably take delivery of their new planes if they wait for a couple of years with their 787 order.

Any thoughts?



Its all about supply and demand...
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15607 times:

Answer often depend on how the questions are being asked..

Reporter: Has the 787 and 748 a future with United.

Tilton: Not for the moment, but when it does, Boeing's 787 Dreamliner would be a good addition to United's fleet, as might Boeing's bigger jumbo jet.

Anyone planning a purchase at a sharp price is not going to rule out the competitor before starting negotiations, unless you're Continental, Delta, Jal or ANA.

"The eventual mix of jets that United might order, be it the 787 or 747-8 -- or planes from Airbus -- will depend on how various markets open up, Tilton said."

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

Untill a while ago, it looked that United wouldn't even be able to ever order a narrowbody again. While United can be seen as a potential customer for a VLA much more than Delta, Continental or American, changes are greater to see them operating nothing bigger than 777's in the future, as the before mentioned 3 US carriers keep expanding into Asia.



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User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15607 times:

Before we start speculating, maybe it is good to read again the very first line of the article...

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15586 times:

I definitely could see United operating a combination of 787s and 748s as their long haul fleet in the future. 777s will likely stick around, but eventually they will be replaced. Of course we are looking 15 years into the future.

The 767s and 744s will likely need replacing at about the same time as the fleets are currently on average about 11 years old. There is still life in those planes, but they will need replacements eventually. United isn't in a position to need any airplanes right now, but with an average fleet age of 11.7 years, I would guess that they would need to make some large orders in the next 5 years.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 15540 times:
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Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

I'd be interested in which routes you think UA could use one on.

As for myself, about the only routes I could see UA using it on are SFO-NRT and IAD-FRA. And since I would expect SQ will (eventually) put an A380 on the former and LH one on the latter...

UA has consistently shed capacity at LHR, so I don't see UA needing one there as if they wanted to expand, they would not have sold and leased so many of their slots. As is they can upgauge to 744s or 748s with their current slots and be fine. And since they do have the option of getting back the five slots they leased to VS down the road, they can add frequencies if they feel the need (such as an Open Skies treaty opening DEN-LHR).

Quoting MaartenV (Reply 3):
Can we expect United to order all, or maybe 3 out of 4 versions of the 787.

I believe all four 787 models have a home in UA, for the missions you note. The 787-3 is too big to replace the 757, but it will work fine to replace the two-class 767 and 777s for service to Hawaii.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15336 times:

Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15319 times:

Regardless of when UA decides to order the 787, they should probably go ahead and put in an order so they can guarantee a slot. They are already filled for the first 3-5 years or something like that.. unless they want to wait until 2015 or later..

I'm sure they could probably get plenty of slot space for the 747-8



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15221 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?

I bet they would get a sweet deal for ordering both the 748 and 787's and all GE engines??? seems more logical route... but who knows



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15130 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?

Interesting question. United has such a long history with Pratt & Whitney dating back to when they were actually divisions of the same company. I would expect there to be a bidding war from GE and RR.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15037 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Really? More so than BA or Cathay? What about Asiana or SAA? One or both of the Taiwanese airlines? Air China? Air India, indeed? Never mind the two Japanese airlines...

Not more, not less. And I was specifically thinking of UA's flights to and from NRT.

Emerging from bankruptcy, I would have thought they would eventually be in the market for a handful of 380's. Didn't Leahy at one point even mention UA as a likely 380 customer? (Nevermind the fact that he talks a lot).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
I'd be interested in which routes you think UA could use one on.

See above.

[Edited 2006-04-19 16:02:20]


My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15011 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
Interesting question. United has such a long history with Pratt & Whitney dating back to when they were actually divisions of the same company. I would expect there to be a bidding war from GE and RR.

Yup. United Airlines and Pratt & Whitney's parent company, United Technologies, don't both have "United" in their name for nothin'.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6959 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14979 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 10):
I bet they would get a sweet deal for ordering both the 748 and 787's and all GE engines???

GE's exclusivity on the 747-8 may well win them 787 customers but it's not guaranteed. For example, I could see LH taking 747-8s (with GEnx) but choosing RR for their 787s (a) for a degree of commonality with their Trent 500s, 700s and 900s, and (b) to push another line LHT's way. UA? It was been rumoured that they're still not talking to GE after the DC10 incident in (?) Iowa but I find that hard to believe. It's certainly true that the PW bias gave IAE the advantage on UA's A320s and, with PW out of the 787 race, that might give RR the edge. Very hard to say. As with AA, it could go either way.

On the 787 RR has NW and GE has CO. If each picked up one more customer out of AA and UA to give each two I wouldn't be surprised.


User currently offlineMaartenV From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14959 times:

Having a history with eachother doesn't automatically have to mean anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Boeing also a part of this company? That didn't stop United from buying and/or flying SUD, Airbus, Lockheed and Douglas aircraft.


Its all about supply and demand...
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14913 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?

I believe UA and GE have some continued discord due to UA232. In the past I have heard many say we would never order another airplane with GE engines. Not to say that cost being the key, but I would bet on RR's.

The huge caveat to all of this is, IF we order airplanes in the future. Hope so but not losing sleep over it.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14721 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
Very hard to say. As with AA, it could go either way.

Very true! But we know for sure, if they want 748's well that is an easy choice... and its a given!



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8422 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14579 times:

While now is not the time to lock in an order it is the time for UA to get down some "refundable deposits" for slots when they project they will need the planes. Boeing wants to nail down UA for the 787 just as much as Airbus wants them for the 350 and setting up the slots now makes sense.

It's good to see UA actually talking about new planes in the future - a good indication that there will be a future for them.


User currently offlineAzza40 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13167 times:

if UA do go 787, or if they have, this is what they would look like, courtesy of my freind ben moorhouse. click on the photo to veiw it bigger.


Modified Airliner Photos:
Click here for bigger photo!
Design © Ben Moorhouse
Template © Ben Moorhouse



Aaron  sly 



Not been on here for a good 2/3 years!
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12816 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):
Regardless of when UA decides to order the 787, they should probably go ahead and put in an order so they can guarantee a slot. They are already filled for the first 3-5 years or something like that.. unless they want to wait until 2015 or later..

I'm sure they could probably get plenty of slot space for the 747-8

Agreed, they cannot sit around for years then make an order, surely they need to seriously order in the very near future, especially the 787.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2827 posts, RR: 42
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12572 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Really? More so than BA or Cathay? What about Asiana or SAA? One or both of the Taiwanese airlines? Air China? Air India, indeed? Never mind the two Japanese airlines...

UA basically launched Airbus's A380 program when it asked Boeing and Airbus for a 600+ seat aircraft. The news that they don't see a future for it right now is non-trivial for Airbus.


User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1943 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12475 times:

I actually think that UA can use the A380s very well especially on a couple of its premium markets to Asia and London.

Its HKG-SFO/ORD flights are constantly sold out especially during peak seasons. HKG-ORD is almost 10 flights a week now. For the future of the Mainland China, an open sky agreement is definitely not going to happen for a while, and A380 may be a good solution to add capacity without adding flights. Beijing and Shanghai are all high potential markets. Also, London Heathrow is at its max... I can see UA consolidate a few ORD or IAD flights into A380s, and free up a few slots to sell to other airlines to generate $$$ or to add a few more secondary cities.

Nevertheless, UA is in no shape to buy planes now. I honestly think that money will be its primary concert. If A350s and A340-600HGW (or whatever new models) are offered in cheap enough prices, UA will take them just as well as Boeing 787s. Anyway, this project will be so far ahead...

Thanks for the news! Who knows who will be UA CEO at 2010?

Carfield


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12345 times:

Quoting Carfield (Reply 22):
Its HKG-SFO/ORD flights are constantly sold out especially during peak seasons. HKG-ORD is almost 10 flights a week now. For the future of the Mainland China, an open sky agreement is definitely not going to happen for a while, and A380 may be a good solution to add capacity without adding flights. Beijing and Shanghai are all high potential markets. Also, London Heathrow is at its max... I can see UA consolidate a few ORD or IAD flights into A380s, and free up a few slots to sell to other airlines to generate $$$ or to add a few more secondary cities.

Carfield, what about during the "low" season...it might become extremely expensive to operate if its not generating money...

they would be better off getting 2 787-10's instead.......better CASM and much much more flexibility.....

slots haven't been a problem for UA.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12209 times:

Quoting Carfield (Reply 22):
I actually think that UA can use the A380s very well especially on a couple of its premium markets to Asia and London.

in all honestly and to put it blankly.. no US airline has any need for the A380.. Us airlines fly on frequency and not on capacity. US airlines put frequency on a much higher priority than moving a schat load of people.. and when they can't get the frequency they want due to one reason or another.. then yes, they will put a large aircraft.. but no US airline has enough capacity to do a 380 daily anywhere.. and when

Even if they are packing them to the gills in a 747.. the 380 is too much aircraft for US airlines. US airlines will code-share the "Hail" out of each other to add frequency where they can't get additional frequency themselves.. which is why every US major has a codeshare partner or alliance.. One World, Star Alliance, Sky Team, South-AT Alliance (WN/ATA)..

I would REALLY REALLY be surprised to see the A380 with a US flag and N- registration.. too fill one of those, you will see a decrease in frequency which no airline wants to do if they don't have to..

And to have a 380 filled with 400-500+ US fare Y seats.. LOL.. funny! I can see the ads now.. Fly to NRT.. $39 each way! Hahahaha.. they could have 175 seats at that price... LOL.. too funny.



Aiming High and going far..
25 Columba : You should have add "passenger version of the A380", A380s with US flag and N-registration will be plenty with Fedex and UPS.
26 ERJ170 : Correct Columba.. I should have made that correction.. Pax version.. Thank you sir..
27 PM : I don't dispute that. But I read the post as suggesting that UA was the airline currently most likely to want A380s and it's that idea I was question
28 1337Delta764 : For UA, it is a tough call. For AA, I think it would go in favor of RR. For Delta, it would go in favor of GE. Also, there is the great possibility t
29 AADC10 : Tilton is leaving UA's options open for the right deal to come along, but probably UA's only interest for the next several years is in more 772s with
30 Lehpron : What recently divorced couple goes off and remarries without getting back on track? Facinating how everyone replies as if both of these quotes from t
31 PM : I'd say you're dead right!
32 KC135TopBoom : But, most of those younger airplanes are the E-170s, and A-319/320 series. That brings the average age down a lot. UA's B-767s, and B-747s are at or
33 RoseFlyer : I understand your point and agree with you, but you added a few years to UA's fleet. The oldest 747 is from 1989, so that would be 17 years old. Half
34 ER757 : I read this quote differently than many of you. Is it possible he's just saying he hasn't been able to see the aircraft itself so he can't comment on
35 FutureUALpilot : I think he meant that at least at this point in time, he does not forsee the A380 fitting into the UA fleet in the future.
36 ATA L1011 : Well the oldest 777's in the fleet are 10-11 years not 13 -14 years old with the 1st delivered in 1995.[Edited 2006-04-20 01:57:09]
37 Stitch : Yet if SQ is worried about the A380 doing SFO-HKG 356-days a year at full load, I'd imagine ORD-HKG would be even more dicey for the plane.
38 Post contains images Jacobin777 : if Airbus doesn't make the A350 more competetive to the B787, the chances are going to be down to 0....... right now, I would say its 90/10 Boeing/Ai
39 Boeing7E7 : And what follows: "We are really interested in how the 787 technology would play in the United fleet," Tilton said in an interview with the Seattle P
40 United787 : My prediction is correct ... United 787
41 Atomother : Perhaps instead of buying all these fancy jets, they could give back some salary to the pilots and other employees that gave wage concessions to save
42 N328KF : Nevermind that before this, UAL pilots were the highest paid in the industry.
43 WN700Driver : And that's the rub. What people don't like to admit or even think about is just how much more it costs to aquire all this shiny new metal. A 748, eve
44 UAL777UK : so true, economics in todays market place would determine whether UA and GE do a deal in the future not whats happened in the past. time to move on,
45 N1120A : Not when there is something available with a lower CASM and likely longer range, all at a lower purchase price.
46 YULWinterSkies : How about the 773ER to replace the 744? Both 380 and 748 look too big...
47 Jacobin777 : I agree with you conceptually, but they don't need to be awash in money to order planes...I think UA would add the 748 sometime by 2011-2015...thats
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