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CO Vs UA..the MSY Story  
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6223 times:

Two weeks ago I booked and flew (most of) two roundtrip trips .... one was BZE-IAH-MSY-IAH-BZE on CO Economy.....and while I was in MSY I booked a quick trip MSY-IAD-LHR-IAD-MSY on UA in Business Class

the CO flights were exceptional, flights were on time, service was very friendly...the agent in BZE even gave me an upgrade (which I didn't ask for).
The UA flights were VERY different....the flight from MSY was late which caused us to get into IAD with 20 minutes to spare, by the time we got to the LHR departure gate there was 5 minutes to spare, even though the plane was still there, the captain/agent refused to let us on even though there were no less than 15 of us transferring (some of the pax were going on to DXB) over from the MSY flight....so we sat there and watched the LHR flight leave without us...UA refused to try to reaccomodate us saying all flights (through JFK/ORD) were full until the following day.....ANYWAY, I said forget it and told them cancel our LHR trip and book us on the next flight back to MSY.....that turned out to be a pricey loss of business for UA......not to mention the cost of putting up 15 passengers for the night.

And we all wonder why UA is in bankruptcy and everyone flies CO!


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAndoo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

First off United is out of bankruptcy. Second United, along with almost every other carrier has a 10 minute cut-off for boarding. Especially with the international flights. Did they give you any reason as to why you were late into IAD? Was it weather? Mechanical?

User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6118 times:

Ok.....details details...they are just of bankruptcy....u r right!

NO...never got a reason why the inbound flight was late...

I know about cut-off times...that is resonable, IF you are originating at that station, BUT if you have at least 15 of YOUR high paying passengers, coming off one of YOUR flights, then one would think that it would pay you to have the connecting flight delayed a few minutes to a) save yourself some money b) save yourself some CSR time and c) get lots of goodwill and future pasesngers.

I have had CO hold flights many times for me....last time was 2 months ago ..they held a flight for 10 of us connecting in IAH.....also had AA do it for me in MIA several times.....



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6104 times:

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 2):
Ok.....details details...they are just of bankruptcy....u r right!

NO...never got a reason why the inbound flight was late...

I know about cut-off times...that is resonable, IF you are originating at that station, BUT if you have at least 15 of YOUR high paying passengers, coming off one of YOUR flights, then one would think that it would pay you to have the connecting flight delayed a few minutes to a) save yourself some money b) save yourself some CSR time and c) get lots of goodwill and future pasesngers.

I have had CO hold flights many times for me....last time was 2 months ago ..they held a flight for 10 of us connecting in IAH.....also had AA do it for me in MIA several times.....

Send a letter to Chicago headquarters. Otherwise, if the service was that bad, and they refuse to tell you why your flight was late, don't fly them again. This attitude towards customer service, ie "we don't care, it's your responsibility, blah, blah" is part of why UA was/is in the condition it's in. I still think they are no better than they were before the bankruptcy. I'll never fly them because of this.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineTWAL1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6060 times:

Actually perceived service failures have nothing to do with why United entered bankruptcy. (Nor DL, NW, TZ, US) This story could be repeated for many different airlines. The line about the corellation poor service and bankruptcy is the oldest, stalest and most uneducated line out there and the use of it makes one look like a imbecile.

User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6040 times:

Quoting TWAL1011 (Reply 4):
Actually perceived service failures have nothing to do with why United entered bankruptcy. (Nor DL, NW, TZ, US) This story could be repeated for many different airlines. The line about the corellation poor service and bankruptcy is the oldest, stalest and most uneducated line out there and the use of it makes one look like a imbecile.

In UA's case, yes it does apply, because the employees were the owners of the company. The mangement is totally inept at times, and I should know. I cleaned planes with UA through DGS for two years. What airline did you work for, TWAL1011?



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5972 times:

Quoting TWAL1011 (Reply 4):
Actually perceived service failures have nothing to do with why United entered bankruptcy.

Perceived (and actual) service failures have a huge bearing on United having been forced to reorganize through bankruptcy. The Summer from Hell back in 2000 cost United hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars in revenue. In 2000, one of the best years in history for the industry, UAL's operating profit fell $737 million from 1999's $1.391 billion to $654 million. By comparison, Delta's operating profit increased from $1.318 billion to $1.637 billion in the same timeframe, while AMR's operating profit increased from from $1.156 billion to $1.381 billion between 1999 and 2000. By the same token, UAL's 2001 operating loss of $3.771 billion was nearly as large as the sum of DAL's operating loss of $1.602 billion and AMR's operating loss of $2.47 billion. Between 1999 and 2001, yields fell 6% at UA, fell 3% at DL, and increased 1% at AA.

So yes, part of why United's fall was so precipitous was indeed its service failures.


User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5935 times:

I have had the same type of experience with UA at IAD, which is why I'll never fly UA through IAD again.

On the flip side, I've had good experiences going through ORD.



"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5923 times:

Employees and owners should never accept lower standards. That is true whether you are selling seats or burgers. In the end the customer is paying your salary.

UA should have looked at the issue, as they could obviously see in their system that quite a few inbound passengers were held up a few minutes, and taken action to make as little as an inconveniece as possible.

In fact I have had CO make a announcement on board that "we know that several of you have connections that are tight because of our delay and we are doing our best to ensure that your connections will be made".



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

UA should have looked at the issue, as they could obviously see in their system that quite a few inbound passengers were held up a few minutes, and taken action to make as little as an inconveniece as possible.
****

This is a tough one. By holding the plane for the 15 latecomers, you now run the risk of having a planeful of latecomers.


User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5901 times:

Well. from the sentiment in the gate area they now got 15+ UA haters...and most of us were on full fare business class tickets.....


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

Well. from the sentiment in the gate area they now got 15+ UA haters...and most of us were on full fare business class tickets.....
****

Which just makes me repeat my earlier comments. All the passengers sitting in Business and first as well as economy probably would not have been too happy to be late themselves in order to wait for you. Therefore having many other full are business passengers, first passengers, and I am pretty sure plenty of their 1K, 1P, 2P etc


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

Missing connecting flights is an old story. Everybody who flys regularly has one. There does seem to be excessive concern with on-time departure and they would rather strand passengers than have delays spread throughout the system. Did you take the afternoon flight? Morning flights are less likely to be late and when you arrived at IAD there would be two departures to LHR ahead of you rather than one.

IAD, particularly the UA/AA Terminals C and D are one of the worst terminals in the USA, aside from IAD's own but soon to be abandoned Terminal G. Even LAX's Terminals 7-8 are better, if that is possible.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 5):
In UA's case, yes it does apply, because the employees were the owners of the company.

UA's bizzare ESOP was scheduled to end not long after UA filed for Ch. 11. Employee ownership was designed to shrink and scheduled to sunset but Ch. 11 wiped out employee "investment" in UAL stock. UA is now primarily owned by investment banking concerns.


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5770 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 12):
UA's bizzare ESOP was scheduled to end not long after UA filed for Ch. 11. Employee ownership was designed to shrink and scheduled to sunset but Ch. 11 wiped out employee "investment" in UAL stock. UA is now primarily owned by investment banking concerns.

Yes, I remember it was put out to pasture early in the Chapter 11 proceedings. But the fact remains that UA's pilots and mechanics union (who had board seats) are partially responsible for putting UA into Chapter 11 in the first place, with their outrageous contract demands and bad executive decisions (Jim Goodwin/Rono Dutta/etc.).



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6350 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5690 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 12):
There does seem to be excessive concern with on-time departure and they would rather strand passengers than have delays spread throughout the system. Did you take the afternoon flight? Morning flights are less likely to be late and when you arrived at IAD there would be two departures to LHR ahead of you rather than one.


5 or 10 minutes could have been made up in the air or even taxiing! I can uderstand holding a plane half an hour is trouble some....but the point was the plasne was still at the gate.

We were on the afternoon flight.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5663 times:

Yellowtail,
I’m with you. It still happens that responsible, profit-driven airlines can and do hold flights for the benefit of customers, esp. those that have already been inconvenienced by that airline once (do you not think those customers are already sweating it the whole flight wondering if they will make their flight? Not exactly service there) When international flights are involved and there is minimal reprotection options, getting it right is even more important. And Chicago to Dubai is not exactly a market that requires a single routing… it seems hard to believe that every other airline over every other routing was sold out.


User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

yellowtail,
if by some strange reason the gate agent came on board and made a announcement that raise your hands if you want to hold for 15 paxs, im sure you and the others would not have raised your hands. as to co holding flights for paxs.....B.S. why wasnt our CO flt held in iah on our way back from crp in march????(connecting to den)for 11 pax cnx to den????do not say co does it....they nor any airlines s.o.p. is to hold flts. the sun,moon and stars must have been perfectly alligned the day you flew on co.


USPIT10L,
can we use your theory on uals ch11 filing on who has/been in bk as well???
hint....co has made the trip many times.....



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

and CO is a very different, customer focused airline now. They learned their lesson even though it took two turns.

And you didn't say whether there was an alternate flight to DEN within a couple hours or even if you could have made it to your final destination within 24 hrs.

It's not the passengers' jobs to tell the airline how to run their business.... they would surely have a half dozen flight attendants on every narrowbody serving 2 hot choices in both cabins on flights as short as 30 minutes... and they'd pay far less than they do now. It's management's job to run the airline for the benefit of everyone, including those accepted by the airline for travel but not yet sitting on one of its planes.


User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

world,
flight was late out of iah due to mech issues. by the time we landed in iah we were 1:20 late...last flt of the day on co was full and they would not endorse/push the tickets over to ua. in the end i should have flown den-sat and driven down but the price was to good not to take it, customer svc in crp was good...iah is not exactly customer driven.btw..i did end up flying ual back from iah on a employee pass.



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5582 times:

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 16):
can we use your theory on uals ch11 filing on who has/been in bk as well???
hint....co has made the trip many times.....

I'd apply it to Lorenzo, but he had no interest in employee ownership. I blame Stephen Wolf directly for the ESOP and how poorly it was worded and executed. You cannot force an employee to stick all their money into their own company's stock. Thank God Ken Lay got caught with Enron. Too late for the employees though. Same goes with UA.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9820 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5536 times:

I am sorry you missed your flight. That sounds pretty tough. I have had pretty bad experiences. I agree that it would have been good for United to be a little more helpful. I personally feel that United is a good airline, but they don't necessarily go the extra mile. For comparison's sake, I had a similar thing happen to me last year, but with a different effect. I flew United ORD-EWR to connect to SQ EWR-SIN. Our flight from ORD-EWR was 2hrs 30min late. That left about a 10 minute connection time in EWR for a flight that I had not checked in for. I thought I would totally miss it, but SQ not only held the flight, but sent a private escort for us three passengers and had boarding passes ready for us at the gate. SQ goes the extra mile, but UA does not. It is frustrating. However I am not sure of any airlines in the United States that truly go as far as holding flights and giving escorts. The same thing could have happened on other airlines.

Personally I think Continental is pretty good, but I'm not sure if they would have held the flight if you came in on a delayed flight. You are comparing a good experience to a bad experience. The problem is that you could have just as easily had a bad experience on CO and good one with UA.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting Yellowtail (Thread starter):
we got to the LHR departure gate there was 5 minutes to spare, even though the plane was still there, the captain/agent refused to let us

Doors close 10 minutes prior to departure so security can be verified and certified.

It's a hard policy for customers to understand, and to be sure I wouldn't like it either.

But once the flight is "closed",which usually happens 10 minutes before scheduled departure, that's it, there is nothing you can do to get on.

It's all for the sake of security.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9820 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5473 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 21):
Doors close 10 minutes prior to departure so security can be verified and certified.

It's a hard policy for customers to understand, and to be sure I wouldn't like it either.

But once the flight is "closed",which usually happens 10 minutes before scheduled departure, that's it, there is nothing you can do to get on.

Yes it is true that once they finalize a flight that they can't let more passengers on. Doors do close normally 10 minutes before a flight. This is difficult for passengers to understand since they often see a plane sitting their with the jetbridge attached. However the paperwork is finalized.

However that doesn't mean that the airline can't hold the plane. It does happen. I have been on plenty of flights where they waited a few extra minutes, especially when it is the last flight of the day. It costs the airline money, and is up to the captain often times, but the airline can do it.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSwank300 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5463 times:

I agree that it could have been a flip experience between the two airlines. If your origin were IAD and you were on the plane, you would be mad that they were holding the plane for other passengers because that would make you late. So, it all depends on the perspective from which you're coming from. I will say that these rules all go towards United's ever-improving on-time record over the last few years, currently the best of all the legacy carriers btw.

Also, I would like to know where Scott B's earnings figures are coming from.


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5436 times:

Quoting TWAL1011 (Reply 4):
The line about the corellation poor service and bankruptcy is the oldest, stalest and most uneducated line out there and the use of it makes one look like a imbecile.

A bit harsh, don't you think? In my opinion, my attitude during the 2X BK CO endured, affected my customer service delivery. Maybe your experience was different with TWA's BK, but I did see several crew who weren't willing to put up with as much as we do today.


25 Post contains links ScottB : http://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch.html
26 CO767FA : There are exceptions to every rule and this was possibly an incident where someone didn't exercise good judgement (if indeed the customers were only
27 COfaninBOS : I fly CO on the last flight from IAH to BOS all the time. The flight is held more often than not, especially in the winter time. There's always a larg
28 Jetdeltamsy : The determination whether or not to hold a flight is not the same as re-opening a closed flight. When a flight is held, the "close" process is delaye
29 Worldjet777 : I just love CO...started flying them recently as opposed to the silver birds, and I don't mean to go back! Cheers, wj777
30 Nbseer : At NRT last March, I was stuck in a mob of hundreds of travellers at the final customs checkpoint before the departure gates. With about 15 minues lef
31 Jetdeltamsy : NRT is not under the domain of the TSA.
32 ChiGB1973 : Well, I have always had great service on UA. It is my preferred carrier. Most airlines are hit-or-miss. Of course, I have always had crappy service on
33 Jfr : Exactly! I mostly travel long haul international, and am used to a certain amount of arrival and departure looseness: flights leaving slightly early
34 ManchesterMAN : I guess you just got unlucky. When I last flew ORD-LHR with UA we were delayed and the captain explained that it was because they were waiting for a b
35 Yellowtail : I was carry on....whew! My point exactly.
36 FLFlyGuy : I'm not necessarily defending UA here, but there are several issues. The first one is bags. It is not as simple as just letting you on the plane. If a
37 Jfr : First of all: Specious excuse #1 - Were the passengers given the choice? I didn't hear Yellowtail say they were. My experience is that most passenger
38 AirCop : The Captain and gate agent should have been aware that 15 passengers were arriving late from a connecting flight. They should have been creative enoug
39 DFW13L : I have experienced multiple situations where there have been misconnecting passengers, on BA and on AA, (while I was a passenger onboard the flight) t
40 FLFlyGuy : Just to be clear about the bag issue. The passengers do not have a choice. Security requires that the passengers travel with their bags. If you let th
41 Yellowtail : You know if UA had just communicated with the passengers or at least made an effort to help we would have been more understanding, it would have been
42 Post contains images Okie : You get a vote every time you buy a ticket. Your tribulations have been my overwhelming experience with UA. So I do not fly them unless I can not get
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