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WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"  
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8639 times:

Hello all,

I have posted some thoughts about WN's presence in PIT regarding their additional service being added to PHL. WN has said that they are very happy with their service in PIT considering the demand and were considering adding more service, including adding more destinations according to press releases in the local newspapers. It has been a year roughly since WN added service here, and they only have 20 daily flights. The last time they added any service there was several months ago when they added TPA and PHX, as well as additional flights to PHL and MDW.

One good reason for the lack of expansion is of course the O&D. It is still rather low compared to other airports its size, and especially regarding the O&D in PHL, but statistics released by the Airport Authority continue to suggest that O&Ds are increasing at a record pace, despite posting lower pax loads as a result of the US dehubbing there.

I have also posted arguements that perhaps other airlines could move in and build up a hub here now that US has moved out (at least its hub has)... I know that the O&D loads right now would not support a hub operation for any airline, but let's consider what Pittsburgh business market is looking like:

1. The Pittsburgh Planning Commission has just approved of a proposed 9-story building on South Side to house North American Headquarters for scores of Asian-based technology companies. Already, there are roughly 50 signed agreements from corporate managements of those companies. The building complex is set to bring at least several hundred jobs into the city

2. Reed Smith, a Pittsburgh Based law firm, has merged with a London-based group to become one of the world's largest firms. Reed Smith will still be based in Pittsburgh; it is the anchor tenant in the proposed Three PNC Plaza, a 25-30 storey office/mixed use building in downtown

3. Toshiba anounced that it will buy Pittsburgh-based Westinghouse assets. Westinghouse also has anounced that it will be tripling its number of engineers at its Pittsburgh base to 9,000. Hopefully, Toshiba will stay committed to keeping its employee base in Pittsburgh; the last thing this city needs is to lose another considerable business operation. This city cannot afford it and Mayor O'Connor and company need to be persuasive about them staying here!!

4. As said before, PNC is expanding its headquarters in Pittsburgh, and it completed somewhat of an alliance with Merril Lynch regarding their shares of Blackrock. That alliance is worth almost a trillion dollars. It is Pennsylvania's largest banking/financial firm and has aquired other banks as well to expand its presence nationwide.

Needless to say, Pittsburgh's business market should hopefully increase considerably as its downtown continues to show growth. There is some commercial growth in downtown, but there is mostly residential growth, which is not at all a bad thing. With a growth in residence there, more services will be needed here, such as dining and entertainment. The north shore is also looking at an expansion of the central business district with DelMonte and Alcoa having large corporate presences there. With such growth and interest in the region, this should really drive up the demand enough to warant a rather large air traffic operation at PIT, maybe not as large as what US had 5 years ago, but certainly better than the one that they have now...

Any thoughts? I am ready for comments and criticism...

edited for errors and cockroach removal  Smile

[Edited 2006-04-19 23:40:53]


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
148 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8575 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Thread starter):
The last time they added any service there was several months ago when they added TPA and PHX, as well as additional flights to PHL and MDW.

I don't know but it seems like WN is focusing on PHL right now. They just announced that on July 2, they would be starting PHL-CMH route. Also, they plan to add/start service from PHL to: Two daily flights to Nashville, Tennessee, they are adding one daily flight to Providence, and they are also adding service to MCO which overall brings to seven daily new flights. Probably since the O&D Market is greater in PHL they decided to start expansion there.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060419/1274864.html?.v=3

I'm guessing WN will build in PIT, but they will probably grow in a few other cities first.



Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8557 times:

As you knwo SWA will do whatever is profitable at PIT whether operating 15 DD or 200.

If WN sees business is growing and more flights will be needed expect WN to snatch it up.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9706 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8518 times:

PIT is an interesting city. It stradles the line between being part of the Midwest and being part of the Northeast. It's economy is sort of a mix between the two. The city as a whole has decent air service with US. It is much better then other cities that use to have a big US presence like Baltimore, Indianapolis and Dayton. Southwest certainly will be a good fit for the city, just like how it serves many cities in the midwest. However there just isn't much growth in that part of the country. Aside from MDW, WN hasn't been expanding much in the middle of the country even though there are a decent number of airports that it serves. 20 flights isn't that bad. I personally can't see PIT ever growing like PHL has. WN is really trying to expand along the East Coast. PIT is part of that, but afterall it a city of 2 million people and already has a ton of air service. I would expect PIT service to be at about the level of CLE, DTW, or IND. So maybe a few more flights if things work out, but I personally doubt there will be a huge expansion.

Aviation in the Midwest has not been expanding much outside of Chicago. In fact many airports have lost service. This is especially the case when the A320s and 737NGs started flying transcon routes, which meant that less traffic was to connect through midwestern cities between smaller coastal markets.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1294 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8518 times:

What is it exactly that you expect from them? They have nearly doubled the number of flights and destinations from PIT in their first year. They never stated that PIT was to be a major destination. Hell, Im just happy they are here at all. Plenty of communities would kill just to have the WN service that we have now. Rome wasnt built in a day. WN has a multitude of opportunities systemwide. They will act first on those that look the best.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8494 times:

In a nutshell: no new industry--the kind that'll attract jobs and young people. The "young people" thing is the problem. The demographics in Pittsburgh (and all of Western Pennsylvania) are not encouraging. Too many old people--the kind that are not frequent travelers. I'm not optimistic that WN is going to expand much beyond the present levels. I'd be delighted if they did! It will take an economic miracle to get Western Pennsylvania going the way it was in the '50s and '60s. Until that happens, there is nothing to keep 20 and 30 somethings around to start businesses, raise families, etc. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I remember the "boom times" there. Everytime I go back it only seems to get worse.  sigh 


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8468 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
20 flights isn't that bad. I personally can't see PIT ever growing like PHL has. WN is really trying to expand along the East Coast. PIT is part of that, but afterall it a city of 2 million people and already has a ton of air service.

Oh I don't think it will grow like that either, but I thought it would have a little more than 20 flights. That is true, 20 flights is not bad at all, considering that they are now the number 2 carrier at PIT regarding pax loads. Although they're a distant number 2 well behind US. I just thought that given what they've been saying in their press releases and in the Post-Gazette, they might have added a few more flights if not at least one more destination or so... I guess they don't want to play the game of Risk Pittsburgh-edition just yet...

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
This is especially the case when the A320s and 737NGs started flying transcon routes, which meant that less traffic was to connect through midwestern cities between smaller coastal markets.

PIT used to be THE city for east-west transcon traffic, but that has changed when US removed the hub and put that traffic through PHL and CLT

Quoting Flaps (Reply 4):
What is it exactly that you expect from them? They have nearly doubled the number of flights and destinations from PIT in their first year.

It's not that I want anything from them... I dunno, it's just that after US dehubbed there everyone, including myself, looked towards WN to pick up the slack. I suppose they have done this for now.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 4):
They never stated that PIT was to be a major destination. Hell, Im just happy they are here at all.

That is true, they never did say that they wanted PIT to be another MDW or BWI for them

Quoting Flaps (Reply 4):
Plenty of communities would kill just to have the WN service that we have now.

True, ATL and CLT would LOVE to have WN service there. WN, unfortunately, doesn't want to enter large hub airports, and both are certainly in that category...

I suppose that if and when the business market becomes more stable and strong enough to support stronger O&D, maybe WN would consider adding more service there, and if not WN, would anyone else consider adding service like B6 which will launch service on June 30. FL? How about F9. I know that George and the A.C.A.A. are talking with them to try and land them for PIT-DEN. I guess if WN adds this route in the future before F9 does, then we can forget about F9 ever coming to PIT...

Perhaps I should have renamed this as the future of LCCs in PIT...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8435 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
The "young people" thing is the problem. The demographics in Pittsburgh (and all of Western Pennsylvania) are not encouraging. Too many old people--the kind that are not frequent travelers.

And this is absolutely murdering the city, and yet there are people who actually say that Pittsburgh is the place to retire to. Just what this dying city needs, more people to speed up the financial death process.

I suppose if the city and county merged, making Allegheny County one massive city to put it back on the map, I suppose this would be a quantum leap in the right direction for the city. These 100 or so municipalities need to get it into their heads that the city needs to merge in order to save money and make more money as well. Right now, Pittsburgh is in a bit of financial jeopordy; it has been posting loss after loss year after year under the Murphy administration.

In addition to this merger, this would also make Pittsburgh one of the more populous cities with 1.3 million people living in Pittsburgh Proper if you will, somewhat like what Philadelphia is right now. Maybe more companies would consider Pittsburgh for an expansion as opposed to the reduction of a Pittsburgh presence...

I absolutely ABHOR the fact that Pittsburgh has more of a senior population than it does 20-40 year olds. As you stated, and I agree, that is absolutely terrible for the city of Pittsburgh, and I am not sure of how to deal with this. Companies are looking at this and are giving Pit the door mat or cold shoulder treatments. Therefore, adding more corporate space to attract business I guess is not the answer to this problem...

Something else that needs to be rectified: the state's malpractice insurance program. Healthcare is probably the largest chunk of SW PA's economy, and thanks to those absurd laws regarding malpractice insurance, those doctors cannot afford to live here and move out. This is certainly not good for Pittsburgh, also considering that they are building a nationwide presence as well as an international one. They opened a research and medical center in Italy recently. Hopefully the blockheads in PA State office will do something about this, or are they really out to shoot Pittsburgh, as well as the rest of the state, in the foot...

I don't mean to be harsh in any sense, but this is the sad truth

[Edited 2006-04-20 01:20:54]


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4103 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8431 times:

US never de-hubbed PIT, so I don't understand the talk about that. The only thing it is NOT anymore is THE hub for US. It's still a hub and will continue to be. How many US flights does PIT still have? Including express flights, which last time I checked still had wings and engines and still actually carried people places?
There are more US mainline flights from PIT than CO mainline flights out of CLE. And I don't see too many people saying CLE is no longer a CO hub.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8398 times:

You are somewhat right HPramper... However, here are some numbers regarding services between CLE and PIT...

CLE has over 220 flights, mainline and express
PIT has only 175 mainline and express and US continues to reduce its presence at PIT. It just removed more express routes from its network, including but not limited to JST and State College, so that 175 might drop even further... I don't remember how many mainline flights PIT still has, but it is nothing to be impressed with. I want to say somewhere around the ballpark of 40 or 50 mainline with the rest being express, but I am not too sure with those numbers. Someone else posted such numbers but that was on a different thread a while ago...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1606 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8308 times:

182 a day on your average weekday

45 mainline (32S, 737, 757)
137 express (77 turboprop, 47 regional jet, 13 E-170)

Mainline cities right now are BOS, CLT, DCA, DEN, FLL, LAS, LAX, LGA, MBJ (Saturdays), MCO, MIA, ORD, PBI, PHL, PHX, RSW, SAN, SFO, SJU (weekend), TPA

CUN resumes Saturdays on June 10
SEA resumes 6x weekly June 11
MBJ ends after May 6


N670UW

[Edited 2006-04-20 02:21:31]

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8287 times:

Quoting N670UW (Reply 10):
182 a day on your average weekday

45 mainline (32S, 737, 757)
137 express (77 turboprop, 47 regional jet, 13 E-170)



N670UW

So I was right about the mainline number, but there are 7 more regional flights than I thought, at least according to that one post that stated that there were 175 daily flights, but I guess they didn't check their facts... Do you suspect the number of E170s to go up considerably, considering the anouncement of Republic building a base in PIT?

Thanks for that info though  Smile



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineNcflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 492 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8254 times:

I don't care about the press releases on all the japanese companies and what not, like its brethren in Cleveland (where I live), Detroit, Buffalo, etc., PIT just isn't growing and won't be growing as fast as other cities in the sun belt. Unions, aging population, weather, reliance on manufacturing, high tax structure-- you know the reasons. PIT's service in Cleveland, DTW, CMH, and other comparable cities is capped in the ballpark of 20. BWI grows in part because the airport is able to move share from DCA, MDW from ORD. Plus those big cities are just much healthier than the rust belt. WN invests most heavily in Chicago, Phoenix, Baltimore, Las Vegas, Florida, seems to me. Makes a lot of sense. And by the way if Wright is appealed, watch out DAL.

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4103 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8247 times:

I just checked on this. DCA and BOS both have more mainline flights daily than PIT. Yet US still only calls them "focus cities." US must really think highly of those express flights out of PIT...I'd like to see total enplanements on US aircraft (mainline + express) out of these cities. It is possible that the only reason PIT is still referred to as a hub is because of the heavy maintenance there, and the administrative facilities on site.

User currently offlineWN57787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8247 times:

WN will Not have PIT grow as fast as PHL.. PHL is the Fastest Grown city for WN.. Look at RDU WN has been thare 7 yrs and only have 27 flts A Day.. RDU had 19 Flts for 3 yrs Before Growning Aging. it takes time to bild.

User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8231 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 1):
I don't know but it seems like WN is focusing on PHL right now. They just announced that on July 2, they would be starting PHL-CMH route. Also, they plan to add/start service from PHL to: Two daily flights to Nashville, Tennessee, they are adding one daily flight to Providence, and they are also adding service to MCO which overall brings to seven daily new flights. Probably since the O&D Market is greater in PHL they decided to start expansion there.

Southwest has expressed a desire to increase to over 100 daily flights from PHL. The only holdup is the lack of available gates. This should be alleviated once the Terminal E expansion and all the shuffling of airlines within the airport is completed. A major effort has been to move all of the international carriers to A-West (where they should have been in the first place) and to make A-East essentially a Domestic terminal. Several airlines in other terminals will then move, or have already moved, to A-East. The thought being that WN could potentially occupy an entire Terminal ("E" or "D") as their own.


User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8231 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 11):
Do you suspect the number of E170s to go up considerably, considering the anouncement of Republic building a base in PIT?

I hope so, maybe that would allow US to right size more markets ex.PIT. I remember when they first came online and PIT was a MidAtlantic base E-70's were flying PIT-ATL,BNA,SYR,MCI and BUF amongst places.  frown 

Regards,
MD90fan  airplane 



http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8187 times:

Then I think MidAtlantic was in PHL, and US anounced that it would close its MidAtlantic service after it sold the assets to Republic. It's bad news for PHL, considering the bulk of the employees were based out there, but better news for PIT. The down side here though, is that former MidAtlantic employees being rehired by Republic are getting lower salaries. But yeah, hopefully this base will get a little bit bigger... If it does get any bigger, like if Republic winds up employing some 1,000 or so employees at some point and run some 30 or 40 E170 operations per day, what would that look like overall for US? Would there be any need for any more mainline equipment considering the amount of regional feed coming into PIT? Or is this once again my passion for PIT running amok? I can live with heavy-duty regional service at PIT; it's better than nothing!!


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8131 times:

Yeah Vega, that would be nice to see WN take up an entire concourse at PHL. I agree that the international gates should have been at A-west myself. Are they going to extend A West so that it parallels the runways? I am sure that considering the international expansion that they would have to expand A-West...


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8091 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
In a nutshell: no new industry--the kind that'll attract jobs and young people. The "young people" thing is the problem. The demographics in Pittsburgh (and all of Western Pennsylvania) are not encouraging. Too many old people--the kind that are not frequent travelers. I'm not optimistic that WN is going to expand much beyond the present levels. I'd be delighted if they did! It will take an economic miracle to get Western Pennsylvania going the way it was in the '50s and '60s. Until that happens, there is nothing to keep 20 and 30 somethings around to start businesses, raise families, etc. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I remember the "boom times" there. Everytime I go back it only seems to get worse.



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 7):
And this is absolutely murdering the city, and yet there are people who actually say that Pittsburgh is the place to retire to. Just what this dying city needs, more people to speed up the financial death process.

I suppose if the city and county merged, making Allegheny County one massive city to put it back on the map, I suppose this would be a quantum leap in the right direction for the city. These 100 or so municipalities need to get it into their heads that the city needs to merge in order to save money and make more money as well. Right now, Pittsburgh is in a bit of financial jeopordy; it has been posting loss after loss year after year under the Murphy administration.

In addition to this merger, this would also make Pittsburgh one of the more populous cities with 1.3 million people living in Pittsburgh Proper if you will, somewhat like what Philadelphia is right now. Maybe more companies would consider Pittsburgh for an expansion as opposed to the reduction of a Pittsburgh presence...

I absolutely ABHOR the fact that Pittsburgh has more of a senior population than it does 20-40 year olds. As you stated, and I agree, that is absolutely terrible for the city of Pittsburgh, and I am not sure of how to deal with this. Companies are looking at this and are giving Pit the door mat or cold shoulder treatments. Therefore, adding more corporate space to attract business I guess is not the answer to this problem...

Something else that needs to be rectified: the state's malpractice insurance program. Healthcare is probably the largest chunk of SW PA's economy, and thanks to those absurd laws regarding malpractice insurance, those doctors cannot afford to live here and move out. This is certainly not good for Pittsburgh, also considering that they are building a nationwide presence as well as an international one. They opened a research and medical center in Italy recently. Hopefully the blockheads in PA State office will do something about this, or are they really out to shoot Pittsburgh, as well as the rest of the state, in the foot...

I don't mean to be harsh in any sense, but this is the sad truth

Unfortunately Steeler83, I don't share your optimism. There is no way Pittsburgh is getting better. It's going to get much, much worse. The taxes are too high and the local leaders have no vision. They just want to line their own pockets with more and more money. I personally believe that if you don't have a job in medicine or the medical field, and you're under the age of 30, you should get out of Pittsburgh as quickly as you can. There is no future here, except in medicine. Otherwise, don't get bogged down with a family and mortgage and be stuck here. There are plenty of cities around the country that are growing and have vision. Pittsburgh simply isn't one of them.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 8):
US never de-hubbed PIT

US officially de-hubbed PIT in November 2004. It has been a focus city ever since. Check out every US Airways press release. It says so right on the bottom with Fort Lauderdale, Washington, Boston and New York LaGuardia. We have great service for a city our size, and again, we should are extremely lucky. Ideally, PIT's air service should mirror someplace like CMH or BNA. RDU has done incredibly well, with AA's subsidized trans-Atlantic flight to LGW.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7989 times:

Would WN ever look at adding West Coast service from PIT, say to OAK and/or LAX?

Also, I have to agree with you guys about the state of Pittsburgh and the Rust Belt in general. Everything is in a state of decay. PIT isn't the only city like that, other ones, like YNG, are going the same way. The population demographics aren't helping it either. Too old. I just don't see it getting much, if at all, better for the cities of the Rust Belt.

-Copa


User currently offlineAirwave From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7974 times:

Ok, I have nothing to contribute to this discussion at this time, but I just gotta say...Steeler, I can't believe you actually went with my thread title idea!! LMAO  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

Quoting Steeler83 (Thread starter):
edited for errors and cockroach removal

Oy! That's my line...sorta, lol.

Airwave  eyebrow 



When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7969 times:

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 20):
Would WN ever look at adding West Coast service from PIT, say to OAK and/or LAX?

I doubt it, especially since all they're doing now is connecting the dots. Way too much traffic on US to make it work.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7969 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Thread starter):
I have also posted arguements that perhaps other airlines could move in and build up a hub here now that US has moved out (at least its hub has)... I know that the O&D loads right now would not support a hub operation for any airline, but let's consider what Pittsburgh business market is looking like:

I would not count on PIT being a major hub in the sense it was when US was running full throttle ever again. Too many other hubs in the region, ORD, MDW, DTW, CLE, CVG, PHL, EWR, etc. etc. Seems like you can get to most places n/s from PIT, just not on one airline. Question number 1 for O/D growth, what are the demographics of the PIT metro area. Old or young, doing good $$$ wise, or declining ? How's population trends, growing, staying the same, shrinking ? Don't forget about the baby-boomers, they are starting to retire now, doubt they are going to stay in climes like PIT and like, most likely they will start heading out to FLA, NV, AZ, SC and such. If the area is growing, O/D will grow, if they area is staying the same, shrinking, not much is going to happen in the way of more flights, let alone a hub.

As for WN "only have 20 daily flights" from PIT. They just opened the station, they are not big in the midwest with the exception of MDW. Look at DTW, a station for WN since the 80's, they only have 16 flights per day and the Detroit metro area is a lot larger than the PIT metro area. At least PIT has N/S to FLA, DTW has to connect in BNA.

By the way, which airline are you expecting to move a hub into PIT ?


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7959 times:

Mayor O'Connor is trying to turn things around for the city though. It does have a formidable business market, granted not as strong as some of the other markets out there and probably not going to be for some time... Many people are looking into the theory of a boomerang effect though, where many people who fled the rust belt for the sunbelt wind up coming back to the rust belt states... a heck of a theory if you ask me, but some people have done such...

As far as what airline I would think would want to build up service in PIT, I was thinking FL, but that is just supremely wishful thinking... Well, I guess considering your post, USPIT, about PIT only getting much worse, I am getting the hell out of this hell hole... no one cares about Pittsburgh. I liked Baltimore, so I guess I'll move there and declare that my future home! So much for my being optimistic...  sarcastic 
[Edited 2006-04-20 04:43:05]

[Edited 2006-04-20 04:50:33]


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
25 Post contains images Vegasplanes : I am one of those many that left, I'd rather Eat Sh*t and Die before I live anywhere near the midwest again. No offense to the midwesteners, just my
26 Steeler83 : I have looked at Baltimore and I was happy with what I saw there, but I still have my optimism towards PIT though. Sure I may no longer live there, b
27 ATCT : Yea they did. What facilities? Last I check reservations is gone, training is gone, and the other administrative offices at parkway center are gone.
28 USPIT10L : Training's still here. Went to it for PSA training. They also had mainline people there too. Building 2 in RIDC.
29 HPRamper : Isn't PIT the US Operations HQ?
30 Post contains images USPIT10L : For US East, yes. At least until it's moved to Tempe.
31 Post contains links Mah584jr : PIT is US' plane maintenance center. In fact, it will be through 2010. http://kdka.com/topstories/local_story_105121233.html
32 Steeler83 : And there is a fairly recent article in the Post-Gazette that states this... They have agreed to an extension for 5 maintenance structures for heavy
33 Steeler83 : I see it's too late for me to edit that last post, but what are the odds of there being an added cargo presence there? They are rapidly building up ca
34 Post contains images HPRamper : Maintenance for aircraft and ground equipment as well, in addition to a large mail sort and cargo building. US still has quite the infrastructure ther
35 Post contains images N670UW : Not all, CLT has a large heavy mx facility as well. The 757 overhauls are on their way to PIT (I believe). I thought those leases were rejected durin
36 Post contains links LoneStarMike : Try looking at the bright side.I thought it would be interesting to compare O&D statistics and avg. fare information on the city-pairs WN serves nonst
37 LoneStarMike : So what about WN's future at PIT? They seem to be getting the most bang for the buck with short to mid-haul flights of 750 miles or less. Here are som
38 Post contains images Lumberton : The place also has a reputation for unions and labor unrest. This isn't meant to be inflamatory, but it makes business startup in certain sectors (li
39 HPRamper : I meant all the heavy mx it had before. CLT and PIT do share the heavy work. They must have gotten them back. Press release wasn't long ago, a few mo
40 Flaps : The Caravans are operated by Wiggins.
41 Post contains images Steeler83 : I thought they were keeping some of the jobs due to the high demand for hi-def and plasma TVs, according to articles in both the Post-Gazette and the
42 USPIt10L : I wholeheartedly agree. One of my best friends has this 50s-60s "union mentality" and it has hurt him everywhere he's been. I myself don't particular
43 HPRamper : Right, it was in our March 25 company newsletter. Time must really be moving slowly for me. I also remember posting about it then, on another thread
44 Devil505x : Is PHL a "gold mine" for WN? They seem to expand there quite a bit. They started there with about 30 flights/day more or less as well. While I am sure
45 Post contains links and images Airwave : Oh dear, I think you'll incur the wrath of Steeler83 for that, lol. If you take a look at the following thread, you'll see a lot of questions vis a v
46 Post contains images Vegasplanes : Much larger O/D in PHL than PIT. Also better location for WN Northeast to Mid-Atlantic and vice-versa connections. Seems like WN does well in PHL, th
47 Post contains images Steeler83 : Nah don't worry Devil505, but I have to admit that I laughed at Airwave's statement about me going off and dealing you this wrath of destruction if y
48 Vegasplanes : Exactly, this is what I was trying to get across in my earlier posts, that there are much larger pockets of O/D travelers than what is in PIT, hence
49 Steeler83 : What about White Plains, or is that too far away like ISP?
50 Vegasplanes : The problem in NYC is traffic is not the best. I imagine that limited service could be possible at White Plains, like ISP something like 20-30 flight
51 Post contains links and images Steeler83 : Yeah, at this stage of the game, that could be hazardous... and I am not sure of any room in EWR myself... I am guessing that they are relocating to
52 Petmbro : Not to sway off topic but at its peak did US offer any international flights from PIT?
53 Post contains links N670UW : US still offers YYZ and MBJ from Pittsburgh, and CUN resumes in June. As recently as late 2004, US Airways offered nonstops to LGW and FRA. They flew
54 Post contains images Steeler83 : And the business travelers at PIT are fight US to try and get them to resume FRA traffic again. They want to get that resumed by the end of the year
55 CentPIT : Correct, but WN did state that in press releases that they plan on growing PIT along with PHL and MDW in 2006! Downtown Pittsburgh is different in ma
56 Post contains links Steeler83 : So there was a press release about this... Downtown looks different from the way it used to look back in the '50s and '60s. It is no longer a manufat
57 Vega : Although I try to avoid this discussion like a plague, when it comes up I cannot control myself and keep posing the same question. If Pittsburgh busi
58 Steeler83 : Yeah I think that US will bring it back when the time is right, whether it be this year or further along. I feel that it will be further along though
59 USPIT10L : I agree. While a potentially-growing city like Pittsburgh needs access to likewise-growing markets around the world, the reality is that if PIT isn't
60 Steeler83 : Yeah, I give it maybe a few years at least before any such service comes back. LH and BA have both goine to PHL and I believe that EI is going to sta
61 CentPIT : Pittsburgh will see her day! British Airways, Lufthansa, and Air France all serve PHL!
62 Post contains images Steeler83 : How about you and I go into the planning sector some day and try and get younger people, aged 20 - 35, to stay in PGH or move here if they don't live
63 Post contains images CentPIT : Sure I would gladly help. In about a year and a half I am going to school to be a commercial pilot. I will help in the mean time!
64 Steeler83 : We believe! We believe in da burgh!!
65 CentPIT : Hahahaha, where do you live, if you don't mind me asking. You can e-mail me if you'd like to instead of posting it on here.
66 Steeler83 : I currently am at Millersville University of PA, aht near Lancaster, but my permenant residence is Baldwin Borough in the "Sahthills" I still call it
67 KingGeo3 : Pittsburgh is definately on the upswing. I can say for a fact that Pittsburgh companies are making some major capital investments (my recent commissio
68 CentPIT : This is very true. WPXI TV PITTSBURGH reported today actually that approximately 2,700 people live downtown. With in this year an additional 2,000 pe
69 Post contains images Steeler83 : I posted that in a previous post on this thread!!! It was from an article in either the Gazette or Trib about downtown growth. It's nice to see someo
70 Post contains links and images Steeler83 : On today's Pittsburgh Tribune Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/business/s_446511.html "Wanted: Airline to Fly Overseas" This was
71 USPIT10L : Don't count on FL. PIT isn't even a focus city for FL. Why would they try something that isn't even in their business model yet. If FL does fly trans
72 Krisrockwell : Steeler83/CentPIT, et al, Pittsburgh is indeed growing. I live on the South Side (the "03", if you will) and we have certianly seen an explosion devel
73 Tooluther : I hope you are all happy. All this Pittsburgh talk has finally convinced me to part with my money and register. I’ve been freeloading for too long a
74 USPIT10L : Concourse A will not be eaten up by WN as long as US keeps their month-to-month lease on A6-A25. The only gates available during daylight hours would
75 Jdwfloyd : WN will not take over that many more gates on A con. Currently use A1 and A3, and A5 is used for a overflow gate and for the RONs. A7 is used by US e
76 Tooluther : Theoretically though, since US Air is operating the A gates on a month-month lease, the airport authority has the ability to move some of their ops ov
77 USPIT10L : In theory, yes. But I doubt UA would want to move over to B. I heard a rumor about three years ago when Siegel was first talking about pulling down P
78 Steeler83 : Even for a rumor, that would have been horrible. Who makes up such rumors as this? That really would have been a bad thing for PIT if that would have
79 USPIT10L : Bad rumor, yes. But I heard it continously for about nine in from 2003-2004. The whole point behind the rumor was the lack of passenger traffic in Co
80 Steeler83 : It's like I have said in other posts, Century III probably has more people in it per day than PIT has. Relevance? Century III is left pretty much empt
81 USPIT10L : Oh yeah, I used to go and spot all the time pre 9/11. Once I started working at the airport, I tried to come in a little early for my shift and check
82 Tooluther : Not getting the overseas routes before the hub was pulled down is probably for the better. It would have hurt even more to lose two additional prestig
83 Steeler83 : Those routes, especially the NRT route, would have been sweet, but yeah Tooluther does have a point. US avoided even further losses by not getting th
84 USPIT10L : The connecting feed to ORD and the west coast is definitely there, but with LAS and PHX as hubs, US would build transpacific feed from there. PHL mig
85 Steeler83 : True, I especially see this from PHX; LAS is actually considered as a secondary hub and according to a few other links as well as some posts on other
86 USPIT10L : As well as I know what PIT had planned, I have no idea what US was thinking with PHL long-term. A-West was supposed to be finished in 2000, but const
87 Steeler83 : There was also a thread about PHL wanting another runway built but that was shot down, they are extending I think 17/37 or whatever runway that is th
88 USPIT10L : Milan was never served until this year. The intial route application went to DL in 1999 for an additional JFK-MXP frequency. BOS-CDG went to AA. As f
89 Krisrockwell : This morning the local Pittsburgh news (WPXI) reported that "local businesses were calling for international flights out ot Pittsburgh to resume". I g
90 Steeler83 : Oh yeah, it's a very big issue, especially regarding the downtown redevelopment to attempt to make Pittsburgh more of a cosmopolitan city like New Yo
91 Mah584jr : If I were US, I wouldn't worry too much about Asian flights at this point. The codeshare agreement with United allows for that. I don't see the necess
92 USPIT10L : US has never had hubs on the west coast before. If they can get the aircraft, and the slots in various Asian airports, I say do it. I'm not talking a
93 Tooluther : they would have had west coast hubs if they hadn't gutted PSA
94 USPIT10L : PSA's network was never the size that HP's was before the merger. PSA had focus cities, not hubs as we now know them. US only had about 100 flights a
95 Steeler83 : The codeshares the do have, yes, but if they open any routes like NRT KIX or NGO from PHX, I am sure they can generate enough feed into that airport,
96 HPRamper : If NW can make an A330 work from PDX-NRT, with virtually no feed to speak of, I'm positive US can make a flight work (be it A330, A350 or 787) from P
97 USPIT10L : If US can get slots at NRT, PHL is definitely in the cards. Beyond that, I don't know, since no one knows what Parker and company are planning route-
98 Post contains images Steeler83 : Thank you USPIT10L for that information; I was sure that PHL could do that route but I was not sure if the other airports around it had plenty of serv
99 Post contains links CentPIT : WELCOME to my RR list!!! Gates Not Used at PIT according to www.flypittsburgh.com : A Concourse(A1-25): NO gates available! B Concourse(B26-50): NO g
100 Vega : Actually, KIX would be a more reasonable choice, considering the access problems and slot prices at NRT. My feeling is that US is placing the cart be
101 Pe@rson : Interesting to see that a last-minute - the last flight tonight - one-way flight from PIT to MDW is just $108 with WN. Likewise, a last-minute - the l
102 USPIT10L : All the remaining gates in Concourse C ARE international gates. Common use, not available unless someone is willing to pay for them. D82, D84, and D8
103 Steeler83 : Well I guess it looks like space really is at a premium. The only way I see space opening up would be if US wants to reopen the E concourse to put its
104 Tooluther : What is US's mainline gate utilization? How many gates do they need to maintain mainline service at present levels? How many flights a day does United
105 Post contains links Steeler83 : They use gates 25-39 for mainline as well as A2, 4, 6-15. I believe those are all the mainline gates for US for a grand total of 27 gates, according
106 N670UW : The entire US mainline operation (what's left of it) is already in B. The A ops are just RJ's (the 50-seaters) and props. That won't happen. Concours
107 Steeler83 : If you finished reading the rest of that little bit about the E concourse, I hinted towards that not happening... Will they eventually tear down the
108 USPIT10L : 14 UA and 3 AC. As long as Express keeps hogging A2, A4, and A6-A25, I don't know when they will move to B.
109 N670UW : There's no plan to do that (that I'm aware of), just a suggestion...
110 CentPIT : Not gates 55-57! Air Canada operates 3 daily DH8s to YYZ! United and United Express as of April 27 2006 operate 14 daily flights. ORD-2 CR7 and 5 B73
111 Steeler83 : And a rather good suggestion at that. I say US should take that into consideration... I am thinking that the 11 gates at the end of B could be used f
112 USPIT10L : Yes, they are. If you had a badge that didn't give you access to downstairs (customs/immigration) you'd get stuck down there! I know--it happened to
113 Steeler83 : That whole section back there was the international arrivals area IIRC... Were there 4 or 5 gates? I seem to think that there were 5...
114 USPIT10L : It's five gates, Steeler83, C55, C57, C59, C60, and C61.
115 CentPIT : I stand corrected. I did not realize that there were five. Thanks for the update. Is jetBlue Def. taking 56 and 58? Where will USA3000 go?
116 USPIT10L : No problem. Happy to help. AFAIK, yes. The only reason C56 and C58 make sense is that there is no breakroom under A2 and A4. Those are the second-best
117 Tooluther : How do RON's work in the morning? Do pax board at the gate the aircraft is parked at or is the plane towed over to the proper gate first?
118 Post contains images Steeler83 : That is what I thought, now if only that would have been a million dollar question on the millionaire show...
119 USPIT10L : Planes are towed over before the departure time to their designated gate. RONs are either parked remotely at stands or on unoccupied gates. This allo
120 Steeler83 : How about D76, 78 or 80? I just thought about this just now... DL said that they are giving up their long-term lease for one of their gates. Am I cor
121 USPIT10L : D76's lease was dropped by DL but picked up by YX. That's where they park the MCI flight at night, and that's where the Skyway turnarounds go during
122 Tooluther : Ok, so if say F9 came into the market, they could take D85 and who ever is currently using it for RON's (Continental/Northwest/Americian?) could use p
123 USPIT10L : D85 was broke when I left DL last September. I don't know if they've fixed it. NW was parking their other RON on D84. But knowing that DL/NW use thos
124 Steeler83 : Ok, thanks. I knew that DL gave up their lease on one of those gates. Given that YX took that over I guess it's safe that D76 will be occupied for so
125 Tooluther : ATA flew to MDW until WN entered the market at close to the same time their codeshare went into effect. I assume the aircraft was a 733. Not sure, my
126 Jdwfloyd : Lets just see if I can clear up the gate usage at PIT. US B26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44 B27,29,31,33,35,37 C55 US Express A2,4,6,8,10,12,14,18,18y,20
127 Post contains images Steeler83 : So they ran from 2003 til last May then? If you can still fly on ATA through a codeshare in MDW, then technically you can fly WN from PIT-DFW... I st
128 Steeler83 : USPIT10L stated that YX is at D76 after DL dropped their lease of that gate.
129 USPIT10L : The aircraft was a 738. I checked it out after my shift ended one night shortly after they started flying here. Loads were never very good, that's pa
130 Tooluther : DFW, HNL, and SFO (until they drop that) The connections to DFW aren't all that great, multi hour layovers. I wonder if you will be able to fly to Oa
131 USPIT10L : I'm hoping US picks it up again soon, once the E170s/E190s start coming in. DFW, MSP, MKE, MCI, BNA, IAH, and DTW should be connected to PIT to ease
132 Post contains links and images LoneStarMike : Did you guys see this article in the Pittsburgh Business Times?Airline aims for business travelers heading to Chicago, Philadelphia Southwest launches
133 USPIT10L : PIT-BWI is a possibility down the road. I remember when WN started service here last year, they did commercials on the radio of the same nature as th
134 Post contains images Steeler83 : It looks to me that we're all on the same page here. Do you mean that "DFW" needs to be connected to PIT and not Detroit? Or does Detroit need it as
135 USPIT10L : Actually, Lakefield and Bronner had NOTHING to do with US Airways in the late '90s. They didn't involved with US until after the first bankruptcy in
136 Post contains images Steeler83 : Oh, right. Come to think of it I do remember seeing those press releases on Lakefield about them in bk in 2003. Where did I come off about him in the
137 USPIT10L : I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. To quite honest, I always felt the old US abused PIT passengers too much, expecting them to pay top-dollar f
138 Steeler83 : I never knew anything about the old USAir from before 1995 or so, and especially about AL. Although from all with whom I have talked about those airl
139 USPIT10L : I'd be more than happy to give you more details on the pre 9/11 US Airways/USAir. I have many timetables and route maps from the '70s on, and know mo
140 Post contains images Steeler83 : Thanks, I will definitely drop you an email, and I think I'll figure out how to lock this thread. I think all of my doubts about the future of WN at
141 CentPIT : I agree 100%! This route would be perfect for AirTran. Agree 100%! Did you get my e-mail?
142 Post contains images Steeler83 : Unfortunately I did not. I am going to try and send you one on here.   Oh, wait, I kinda cannot contact you; I don't know what yours is... [Edited 2
143 Tooluther : What do you mean by that? PIT-JFK did come bfore PHL-JFK
144 Post contains images Steeler83 : I think he might have changed channels and meant US that time
145 Mah584jr : I remember those days well around PHL. We did the best we could to avoid that airline. When I first started flying in the late 80's/early 90's our fa
146 USPIT10L : I can understand taking UA from PHL in those days, especially pre-1996, when USAir really started to build up PHL's service, both domestically and in
147 Mah584jr : There were a lot of connections through the midwest hubs, as I travelled to the west coast. That's not as much of the case anymore these days. Most t
148 USPIT10L : My first flight was on UA back in January 1982 to TPA. Ironic my first airline job was spent cleaning their planes. I loved USAir, United, and Delta
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