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Possible AF Daytime Flight JFK-CDG  
User currently offlineSkyteam10001 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 198 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4986 times:

Hi guys,

I just completed an AF online survey. As a frequent CDG-NYC traveller, they wanted to ask my opinion on a possible new AF flight between CDG and JFK. This new CDG-JFK flight would leave paris at 9.30pm, arriving in JFK at 11.45pm, and the return JFK-CDG would leave JFK at about 7.45am IIRC, and get to Paris around 8pm (not sure about the exact times on the return leg).

It is very interesting that they would consider a daytime flight for the eastbound leg, which I believe would make a lot of sense for African and Asian connexions. Right now there are no daytime flights between the US and France (eastbound, obviously). I know of several daytime flights between the US and the UK, but for France that would be new.

I actually don't think much of the daytime flight as it would be a waste of time for me, however the CDG-JFK flight leaving at 9.30pm would be terrific for me as it would enable me to work a full day and then fly to JFK. It would probably be one of the latest flight to leave Europe for the US.

Anyway, I thought I'd share that with you. Not sure if the flights will actually happen, after all it is only a survey, but I am glad AF is being innovative in their flight schedules !

A.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4891 times:

Thanks for sharing that. A lot of people prefer the daytime flights because it allows them to get to their homes/hotels for the night rather than trying to have a full nights sleep on a 6 hour flight.

I hope they will add this flight for the summer schedule.


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6372 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

The fact that there hasn't been a daytime flight between the US and France has been shocking to me. Paris is becoming more and more of a business destination, and I think a daytime flight on this route would be great for all parties. Also, the late night flight back from France to JFK sounds great for both business and leisure travellers - biz travellers get a whole day of work, and leisure travellers get a whole of sightseeing or travel to get to Paris.

I'm also surprised a flight like this to Frankfurt hasn't been started.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21882 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

I'm not a fan of daytime Transatlantic flights - I find that it makes much more sense to spend the night on the plane rather than waste a day travelling.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11983 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4829 times:

I think AA or CO could make a daylight 752 work eastbound, assuming that AA refitted the international 757s with new J seats. AF, IMO, could definitely fill a flight eastbound during the daytime, with connections to the CDG redeye departures alone, easily.

User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4829 times:

Personally, I believe its a good idea, and it would allow for connections from the west coast red-eyes.

User currently offlineMlsrar From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I'm not a fan of daytime Transatlantic flights - I find that it makes much more sense to spend the night on the plane rather than waste a day travelling.

While my preferred carrier, NW, does not operate any daytime TA flights, having taken the daytime ORD-LHR flight on AA (98/99 I believe it was) twice, it was great!

Sure, you do lose a day to flight, but it is incredible at minimizing jet-lag. The eastbound flights are generally less than 7 hours from ORD. Take an ambien when you arrive, awake refreshed and ready to work.



I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6372 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Quoting Mlsrar (Reply 6):
Take an ambien when you arrive, awake refreshed and ready to work.

Do you work for Ambien?  Wink

I personally dislike the daytime flights, but love the late night reverse flight from Europe to North America (having taken a BA flight LHR-JFK that left at like 9 or 10pm...whole day of enjoying London!)


User currently offlineTundra767 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2005, 430 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

I agree a daytime flight is great. It also works for late night connections to Africa and the Middle East as was my case. I took the early AA flight BOS-LHR that arives just in time to take the last EK flight of the night to DXB. I felt great no jet lag!

User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3309 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4716 times:
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I, too, love day flights. My family did EWR-LHR this summer on VS and left Newark at 8:00 AM. It was so great to get some good sleep in London, and before that we were even able to go out and explore a little bit because we weren't tired at all yet! I loved it.

I do, however, have one complaint about the day flights. While they are amazing at minimizing jet-lag, there are no inter-Europe late night flights, so I would never be able to fly to LHR and then connect to ATH or GVA, the two airports I fly to most often. I'd have to use a different airport, or spend a night in London. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, but it'd be nice to get right where I'm going. Maybe I can convince LX to make their JFK-GVA flight a day flight, and DL to make their JFK-ATH a day flight as well!

TIS



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User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7429 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4642 times:

A Daytime flight NYC-PAR is very unlikely to happen.
TWA already tried one in the late 80s.
A flight leaving JFK at 7:25AM would land in CDG at 08:50PM, because of the 6 hours difference (Only 5 hours with London, and a shorter flight).
You have to wake up very early in New York, You loose a whole day, and miss most of the possible connections at CDG, and if Paris is your final destination, well, by the time you go thru immigration, customs, and reach Paris : your day is over.
While a US airline could do it with a very late return departure from CDG, AF would have to leave an aircraft overnight in JFK do operate such a flight, (which costs a lot), just like with Concorde (Concorde would arrive at 8:45AM at JFK and leave at 08:AM the next morning).


User currently offlineSkyteam10001 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4595 times:

FlySSC, it may be very unlikely to happen but at least AF is thinking about it, hence the online survey. There are several eastbound daytime flights between the US and the UK. I know the US-UK market is bigger than the US-FR market, but does that mean there is no room for an AF daytime flight ?

A flight arriving around 9pm in CDG would enable you to connect all the flights going to Asia or Africa leaving in the late evening bank : BKK (174), BGF (880), DXB (530), HAN (174), HKG (188), JNB (990), LBV (976), LAD (928), SSG (962), NDJ (882), PNR (824), PHC (870), PVG (118), SIN (256) - I probably forgot a few.

That may be enough to fill up the flight along with some O&D travellers ? You know more than I do since you work for AF but this little list gives some sort of credibility to that survey, no ?

A.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7429 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4466 times:

Skyteam10001, you are right for evening connections.
Now is there any demand on those destinations to propose a daytime flight, at least 4 or 5 x Weekly ?
Does the cost in term of aircraft utilization worth it ?

I surely don't know ... As you said, the Market US-France is far smaller than the market US-UK, but AF is also by far very dominant on this market, so ... Why not ? Maybe an A319ER DEDICATE flight could do it !


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4167 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I'm not a fan of daytime Transatlantic flights - I find that it makes much more sense to spend the night on the plane rather than waste a day travelling.

Well, it's NOT an either-or thing. You can happliy refuse to take the flight you're 'not a fan of' and go at night...when most of the flights leave anyway. There are people who DO favor the daylight crossings; it gives them an option. And the people who do favor them certainly don't care one bit if you think they're a 'waste.'


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7429 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4401 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 13):
There are people who DO favor the daylight crossings; it gives them an option. And the people who do favor them certainly don't care one bit if you think they're a 'waste.'

As Skyteam10001 mentionned, the only interest of such a flight, arriving at 9:xx PM in CDG would be the connections to all the flights leaving CDG at 11:xx PM : HKG, SIN, LAD, NDJ, DXB, JNB, BKK, PNR, SSG, PHC, etc ...

I don't think such a daytime flight would be popular among PAX who have PARIS a s their final destination.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4366 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
TWA already tried one in the late 80s.

True, but TWA did not have anywhere near (a) the presence in the market that AF now has thanks to Skyteam or (b) the connections offered by AF beyond Paris to many destinations (e.g., Southeast Asia and Africa) that would otherwise require an all-day layover. Although I agree that this flight would not have worked in the past, I think the market conditions have changed enough that this could finally be a viable route if operated by AF and marketed properly.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6372 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
I don't think such a daytime flight would be popular among PAX who have PARIS a s their final destination

I disagree. I think particularly business people who have morning meetings in Paris would find this fantastic, as I know they do the daytime flights from the US to London. They're able to get a full nights sleep as opposed to just getting off the plane and heading to a 9am meeting barely awake.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8672 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

I'm as surpirse as SW733 that there aren't yet any daytime eastbound flights to both CDG and FRA. Some people may disagree about the value of the eastboud leg but everyone agrees that the late night westbound leg is great especially for business travelers and airlines could charge a higher premium on that flight to make up for possible lower loads on the eastbound leg.

In addition, a day time eastbound TA flight offers additional connections to the red-eye passengers coming from the West coast, and it's a much better flight to connect to Africa, Middle East and Asia. For example, a premium passenger that misses his LAX-CDG flight could easily be rebooked on a LAX-JFK-CDG flight rather than be forced to spend an extra 24 hours in LA.

The same goes for LH in FRA, specially as LH expands their flights to India, it would make tremendous sense to have a daytime flight from NYC and BOS to FRA. Why BOS you may ask? Well, Frankfurt, New York and Boston are very large financial centers. In addition, Boston is a high tech region with a lot of links to offshore offices in India.


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3635 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

While many state that a daytime flight is a day wasted, there are many people like me who hate red-eyes.

I don't only hate red-eyes, I deplore them! I can't sleep on those seats, and when I arrive the next day in Europe I'm doing one of two things:

1. Forcing myself to stay up in a bleary-eyed state

2. Taking a nap.

To me, feeling like sh*t while strolling around the Roman forum because of lack of sleep on the red-eye flight over is a day wasted.

Good marketing on behalf of AF. For business and leisure travellers alike.

PJ


User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

I have been wondering why AF hasn't already started this flight. I think if there can be multiple daytime flights from NYC-LON, surely AF can do one daytime JFK-CDG. I would much rather fly to Europe during the day, and not have your first day in Europe ruined because you can't sleep on the flight over. I wonder if AF would use something smaller than the 777, like maybe the 333?

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 12):
Skyteam10001, you are right for evening connections.
Now is there any demand on those destinations to propose a daytime flight, at least 4 or 5 x Weekly ?
Does the cost in term of aircraft utilization worth it ?

I surely don't know ... As you said, the Market US-France is far smaller than the market US-UK, but AF is also by far very dominant on this market, so ... Why not ? Maybe an A319ER DEDICATE flight could do it !

yes the A319ER dedicate would be a very good option.

As mentioned before the flight would laking at least conections to the most European destinations as the most europe-bound flights leaving CDG at 2000 - 2100



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3716 times:

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 19):
I wonder if AF would use something smaller than the 777, like maybe the 333?

Definitely. Something as small as the 319ER has been suggested. By 333, you mean 332 by the way!

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
I'm also surprised a flight like this to Frankfurt hasn't been started.

FRA is even further than CDG, so even more difficult to schedule...



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineSkyteam10001 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3631 times:

Just to be specific I looked back at the survey and this hypothetic daytime flight would leave JFK at 7.45 am and land at CDG at 9pm.

Let's see what AF does with the results of that survey ! Anyway I can only encourage them to keep on thinking outside the box.

Aurelien


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7429 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Quoting Skyteam10001 (Reply 22):
Just to be specific I looked back at the survey and this hypothetic daytime flight would leave JFK at 7.45 am and land at CDG at 9pm.

If ever such a flight is operated one day, that will be to offer the connections leaving CDG in the evening, that you mentionned in your reply # 11 particularly flights to Africa and "Oil" destinations (PHC, SSG, PNR, LAD, etc...)
In that case, a Daily A319ER could be possible or an A332, but probably not Daily.


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