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How Does Open Sky Policy Effect A Domestic Flyer?  
User currently offlineRyGuy From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 180 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5117 times:

Recently there is alot about this open skys policy, but there is just parts that I do not understand. For Example, How would it effect somebody like myself flying domestic flights 90% of the time. Does it mean cheaper airfares around the board or just onto international flights...

Thanks,
One Confused Traveller


RyGuy


From somewhere out there...
8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5109 times:

I have a question on the same subject too.

Is cabotage still in effect with open skies? Would a routing like Vancouver-London-Toronto instead of Vancouver-Toronto be illegal?


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 1):
Is cabotage still in effect with open skies? Would a routing like Vancouver-London-Toronto instead of Vancouver-Toronto be illegal?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Canada and the U.K. ever had full cabotage, and I don't think this new deal will allow, say, BA to fly YUL-YOW, or AC to fly GLA-MAN. Could be wrong, though.  Smile


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5059 times:

Okay, here's the way I understand it:

Fifth Freedom means a third country's airline has the right to fly internationally between two other countries. For example, passengers may buy tickets LAX-LHR on Air India, a third country's airline.

Cabotage (which is a word I don't know the origin of) or Eighth Freedom means another country's airline has the legal right to fly domestically between two points in another country. For example, Qantas flies SYD-LAX-JFK. The LAX-JFK segment is ONLY for passengers continuing from SYD. No local traffic between the two American airports is allowed.

If Eighth Freedom rights were granted to Qantas, they would be able to sell tickets for LAX-JFK.

To answer your full question, a domestic flyer would probably not notice an "Open Skies" policy unless it specifically allowed Eighth Freedom rights. In the United States, assuming the facilities are available, any airline can fly any domestic route it wants.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5052 times:

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 1):
Would a routing like Vancouver-London-Toronto instead of Vancouver-Toronto be illegal?

If 8th freedom rights weren't involved, a direct YVR-LON-YYZ would still be legal as a triangular route if for example a Canadian airline such as AC or TS would operate it. Most Open Skies treaties only grant (if applicable) 5th freedom rights, which means that when an aircraft makes an intermediate stop, they can sell tickets for the next point in that route, as long as it isn't a domestic flight within a country. An example would be NW in AMS. NW has 5th freedom rights out of AMS for their destinations in India. The same with RG and their old GRU-CDG-AMS route, because they did sell tickets for the short CDG-AMS route.


User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Thanks for all the responses, folks, although it looks like I was thinking about something different.

I remember reading on this forum a few months ago that if one wanted to do a domestic segment from A to B in the US, then the routing could not have a Canadian city as an intermediate connection point between A and B.

Is this also called cabotage?

Regards


User currently offlineBA747YYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2006, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5012 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
Fifth Freedom means a third country's airline has the right to fly internationally between two other countries. For example, passengers may buy tickets LAX-LHR on Air India, a third country's airline.

No it's not that, and i think the domestic flights still have to end up in the primary country.
I remember about 2-3 years ago Branson wanted to start a Canadian domestic system but could not due to regualations.


User currently offlineNetworkDoc From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
Cabotage (which is a word I don't know the origin of) or Eighth Freedom means another country's airline has the legal right to fly domestically between two points in another country.

There are two different forms of cabotage as constituted in the Eighth and Ninth Freedoms of the Air. The Eighth Freedom you refer to is known as 'fill-up cabotage' meaning that an airline of one country is permitted to operate services within a foreign country only if the cabotage service is operated related to its Third and Fourth Freedom services [i.e. the mutual exchange of traffic rights between countries in bi-/multi-lateral air agreements]. The Ninth Freedom, however, permits the provision of domestic air services by an airline in a foreign country unrelated to any of its Third and Fourth Freedom flights offered, also known as 'stand-alone cabotage'.

Most Open Skies agreements are only international (e.g. US-Canada and all its other Open Skies Agreements, HKG-Malaysia, US-Brunei-Chile-NZ) whilst some others cover both international and domestic services (e.g. the EU and Australia-NZ).

So despite Open Skies becoming more widespread, domestic markets remain widely protected.



Flown: AB/BA/BD/BI/CX/DI/DL/KE/KL/LH/LT/LX/MH/NW/OZ/PR/QF/SN/SQ/TW/UA/VS/5J.
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 5):
I remember reading on this forum a few months ago that if one wanted to do a domestic segment from A to B in the US, then the routing could not have a Canadian city as an intermediate connection point between A and B.

Is this also called cabotage?

Yes. Cabotage is carriage of passengers and freight between two airports in the same country, regardless of actual routing. NYC-YVR-HNL is cabotage as is LAX-SEL-GUM. Some others? LON-NYC-BDA, PAR-MIA-CAY, MRS-MRU-RUN, PAR-LAX-PPT.


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