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Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies  
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Posted (8 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

After a meeting with Colombia's vice-president, an Air Madrid representative announced that the colombian government was to ask its spanish counterpart to implement an open-skies policy between the 2 countries, hopefully before the year's end.

Air Madrid seems to be doing well on its colombian destinations. They said that they want to operate daily flights to Bogota, instead of the current 3 weekly frequencies, and that they would also serve other destinations in the country such as Cali and Medellin, and maybe San Andres Island.

Traffic between Colombia and Spain has been growing at a high rate in the last few years. 3 spanish airlines serve BOG: Iberia, Air Comet and Air Madrid (who also stops in CTG).
Avianca has been extending its services too, by serving Madrid from Cali. It will soon start BCN from BOG twice weekly (one of these flights will also stop at ALC)


Source (In spanish)
http://www.elcolombiano.terra.com.co...a_cielos_abiertos.asp?CodSeccion=4

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

How many flights there are in Colombia-Spain route today?? With AVs new routes, CLO-MAD and BOG-BCN, I guess will be reaching an average of 3 daily flights (including numbers from Air Madrid, Air Comet and IB). Can pax numbers support more flights?? On the other hand, I haven't heard how's the CLO-MAD doing for AV?? I would think many pax from PEI and Armenia take this option, instead of coming to BOG.

Good luck.



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 760 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3530 times:

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
How many flights there are in Colombia-Spain route today??

The frequencies allowed by Colombia-Spain bilateral (highly restrictive)are almost fully covered.

For Colombia
Destination: MAD or BCN
- Up to 7x weekly (Avianca MAD-BOG)
- Up to 3x weekly if codeshared with Spanish airline (Avianca MAD-Cali c/s with Iberia)
- Up to 4x wekkly if one of the two legs is via Canarias or Alicante (those two BOG-ALC-MAD-BOG) mentioned above

For Spain
Destination BOG
- Up to 7x weekly (Iberia MAD-BOG)
- Up to 3x weekly if codeshared with Colombian airline (Air Plus MAD-BOG c/s with a Colombian airline i can't remember right now)
- Up to 3x wekkly if one of the two legs is via Cartagena de Indias, San Andrés Isla, Santa Marta or Armenia (Air Madrid MAD-CTG-BOG-MAD)

I think the only option available is for a Colombian airline to fly via Alicante or Canarias (2 more if the above ALC-BCN is launched)

[Edited 2006-04-24 21:20:24]

User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

Quoting Aisak (Reply 2):
(Air Plus MAD-BOG c/s with a Colombian airline i can't remember right now)

IIRC, that one is P5. Anyway, don't quote me on this.


Good luck.



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 3):
IIRC, that one is P5. Anyway, don't quote me on this.

It is! Aerorepublica indeed.
Funny actually, as if you look in Amadeus, the P5 coded flights MAD-BOG-MAD appear as being operated non-stop with an MD81  

Quoting Aisak (Reply 2):
I think the only option available is for a Colombian airline to fly via Alicante or Canarias (2 more if the above ALC-BCN is launched

AV will use only one of the 4 available frequencies that require a stop, as one of the BCN flights will be non-stop IB codeshare.

The BCN flights start 15th June.

I guess that if the open skies becomes reality, the ALC stop will disappear.
Shame in a way. I notice that AV are advertising BCN as a new destination, but not ALC! It's not even listed on their reservations system. They are just treating it like an obligatory stop, when there is some catchment to be had there..

[Edited 2006-04-24 23:36:11]

User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

I think thats good though if it happens maybe that will prevent AV or P5 form adding routes to other european nations.....

User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3397 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Thread starter):
Air Madrid seems to be doing well on its colombian destinations. They said that they want to operate daily flights to Bogota, instead of the current 3 weekly frequencies, and that they would also serve other destinations in the country such as Cali and Medellin, and maybe San Andres Island.

That is, of course, if they can get their act together in the mean time. An on-time performance of 8% [yes, eight] and average delay-time of 3 and a half hours are figures that speak for themselves.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
Can pax numbers support more flights?

They sure can. Service between Colombia and Europe is still extremely limited, and the existing flights are going out nearly full even on low-season.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
On the other hand, I haven't heard how's the CLO-MAD doing for AV??

Surprisingly well. Cali has shown an amazing response to the dedicated nonstop service to Madrid.

The fact that the flight originates in Bogota means that AV can more easily fill the plane, but naturally, high-yielding passengers tend to take the nonstop BOG-MAD flights, whereas the lower-yielding types are routed through CLO.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
I would think many pax from PEI and Armenia take this option, instead of coming to BOG.

It depends. There is an evident lack of air-connections between Pereira/Armenia and Cali [excluding one daily flight by Aires from PEI], whereas these cities are very well-linked to Bogota, and even better, on Avianca. It would be logical to think that the CLO-MAD service is a niche service dedicated for serving the strong local demand between the Cali/Palmira region and Spain.




SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 15 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 6):
That is, of course, if they can get their act together in the mean time. An on-time performance of 8% [yes, eight] and average delay-time of 3 and a half hours are figures that speak for themselves.

That is appalling! I certainly hope that they improve on this front. Air Madrid have tried to cover too much with a small fleet. I trust that they won't let their success slip by letting their reputation be damaged beyond repair. They have already given way on the food onboard, which is now included at no extra cost. People are prepared to be forgiving to save €100, but the honeymoon may not last forever.

I liked Air Madrid mentioning MDE as a possible destination. Yet, I would not fly them if it were in place today for fear of missing my connecting flight from MAD to LON.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (8 years 14 hours ago) and read 3329 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 7):
That is appalling! I certainly hope that they improve on this front. Air Madrid have tried to cover too much with a small fleet. I trust that they won't let their success slip by letting their reputation be damaged beyond repair. They have already given way on the food onboard, which is now included at no extra cost. People are prepared to be forgiving to save €100, but the honeymoon may not last forever.

I liked Air Madrid mentioning MDE as a possible destination. Yet, I would not fly them if it were in place today for fear of missing my connecting flight from MAD to LON.

intresting that NM no gives the food free of extra charge....


If they would serve MDE it would be a success for them, but only if they would get more aircrafts and stop the problems with the delays (that are often very big 24hours etc....) + they need a better conections to Europe destinations, the new short-haul flights from them are not very good linked to the long-haul flights.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
If they would serve MDE it would be a success for them

Who knows. I have always wondered if there really is a strong-enough demand to support a dedicated flight from Medellin to Spain.

CLO-MAD has been performing amazingly well, but it is still understandable given that a greater population from the Cali-Palmira area migrated to Europe, whereas people from Medellin did so to the United States, at least more visibly.

One or two weekly flights stopping in Cartagena on the way out could probably do fine for starters.



SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 9):
CLO-MAD has been performing amazingly well, but it is still understandable given that a greater population from the Cali-Palmira area migrated to Europe, whereas people from Medellin did so to the United States, at least more visibly.

I am not sure if more people from Cali area migrated to Europe than from Medellin area, I would say it is nearly the same.... for germany it may even that the Paisa population is much higher compared to the Caleños.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 hours ago) and read 3254 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
I am not sure if more people from Cali area migrated to Europe than from Medellin area, I would say it is nearly the same

I'll put it this way: when AV studied the possibility of flying to Spain from secondary cities in Colombia, they considered the two largest population areas from where people migrated: those were Cali/Yumbo/Palmira, and the Coffee Region [Pereira/Armenia]. Medellin was never mentioned.



SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 11):
I'll put it this way: when AV studied the possibility of flying to Spain from secondary cities in Colombia, they considered the two largest population areas from where people migrated: those were Cali/Yumbo/Palmira, and the Coffee Region [Pereira/Armenia]. Medellin was never mentioned.

I lived over 20 years in Europe and with my colombian root, I know very good the colombian community in Europe. So I have my personal experience.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 12):
I lived over 20 years in Europe and with my colombian root, I know very good the colombian community in Europe.

I hope all the 500,000 Colombians in Spain are friendly to you, now that you know them so well.

Just kidding, of course your experience counts, but I rather stick to facts, and Avianca couldn't be so dumb as to not see that MDE has a certain potential, if it ever existed. If they went after Cali it's because the market there was bigger or more promising, regardless of your experience.



SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 hours ago) and read 3238 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 13):
I hope all the 500,000 Colombians in Spain are friendly to you, now that you know them so well.

Just kidding, of course your experience counts, but I rather stick to facts, and Avianca couldn't be so dumb as to not see that MDE has a certain potential, if it ever existed. If they went after Cali it's because the market there was bigger or more promising, regardless of your experience.

 Big grin well I think Cali had better cards for the europe flights, as more international companys are located in Cali. regarding VFR MDE should be stronger.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 hours ago) and read 3235 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 14):
as more international companys are located in Cali. regarding VFR MDE should be stronger.

It amazes me you mention "international companies" as a determining factor of the CLO-MAD route, when Cali's industry is down the drain day-by-day. Plus, what business traffic would AV be capturing if they fly only 2 times per week? Business travelers are the ones who need the most felxibility, and 2 weekly services are certainly not what they expect or want.

In this respect I absolutely disagree with you. Business traffic has never been determining for routes between Spain and Colombia, and IF there was any demand for business traveling from Spain out of BOG, it's to MDE, far more indutrialized than CLO.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 14):
regarding VFR MDE should be stronger.

"Should"? I invite you to show me where does MDE beat CLO in yielding over 35,000 yearly passengers to Spain.

I'm waiting...


SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (7 years 12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
In this respect I absolutely disagree with you. Business traffic has never been determining for routes between Spain and Colombia, and IF there was any demand for business traveling from Spain out of BOG, it's to MDE, far more indutrialized than CLO.

not sure with this, specially imports of industrial goods, pharmaceuticals etc are stronger to CLO than to MDE from Europe.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
"Should"? I invite you to show me where does MDE beat CLO in yielding over 35,000 yearly passengers to Spain.

source for the 35.000.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (7 years 12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
source for the 35.000.

You usually don't answer a question with another question. But if you insist:

Aeronautica Civil.

Routes from Colombia to Europe during 2005:

- Bogota-Madrid-Bogota 278,253 passengers moved with a 42% growth from 2004
- Bogota-Paris-Bogota 142,230 passengers moved with a 28% growth from 2004
- Cali-Madrid-Cali 34,083 passengers moved with a 33,58% growth from 2004
- Cartagena-Madrid-Cartagena 19,997 passengers moved with a 86% growth from 2004.




Your turn... and "personal experience" doesn't count.  Yeah sure



SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 12 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
- Cali-Madrid-Cali 34,083 passengers moved with a 33,58% growth from 2004
- Cartagena-Madrid-Cartagena 19,997 passengers moved with a 86% growth from 2004.

Thank you for sharing these figures!
I do think that in Spain there are a lot of Colombian that originate from Cali and Pereira areas. Same is true of teh UK. I guess that it may be different in Grmany.
However, these figures, in particular those of CTG-MAD-CTG, -ith the 86% growth- go to show that increasing supply encourages demand. it is not just the otherway round. So maybe a non-stop flight to MDE, twice a week as you said even with a stop in CTG- might pay off. Pereira and Armenia would be higher in the pecking order, but since it is not techically possible to do that at the moment, those will have to wait.

CLO is not too bad for people going to PEI area and surrounds, as the drive is quite doable.


User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 18):
However, these figures, in particular those of CTG-MAD-CTG, -ith the 86% growth- go to show that increasing supply encourages demand. it is not just the otherway round.

True, and consider that AirMadrid, the main carrier involved in this CTG-MAD activity, went from stopping twice in CTG [both on the way in and the way out], to just one stop, making the MAD-BOG segment nonstop. Theoretically, that could have influenced negatively in the market's growth, but it didn't.

So far this year, the market between CTG and MAD has shrank a bit compared to the same period of the past year, but nothing extraordinary. It should be expected to see a natural increase in traffic begining in June.




SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (7 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 3003 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
In this respect I absolutely disagree with you. Business traffic has never been determining for routes between Spain and Colombia, and IF there was any demand for business traveling from Spain out of BOG, it's to MDE, far more indutrialized than CLO.

depands on what industrie, + dont forget Cali has some big international companies located, Bayer to mention 1 for example.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
You usually don't answer a question with another question. But if you insist:

Aeronautica Civil.

Routes from Colombia to Europe during 2005:

- Bogota-Madrid-Bogota 278,253 passengers moved with a 42% growth from 2004
- Bogota-Paris-Bogota 142,230 passengers moved with a 28% growth from 2004
- Cali-Madrid-Cali 34,083 passengers moved with a 33,58% growth from 2004
- Cartagena-Madrid-Cartagena 19,997 passengers moved with a 86% growth from 2004.

Your turn... and "personal experience" doesn't count.

thats the numbers of passengers moved on the flights or? This numbers do not show the O&D of the markets, so the 35000 passengers do not say a lot of the situation witch city is stronger for airtravel to spain/europe.


to get a correct source regarding the O&D traffic should not be easy, but I am searching.

AVIANCA



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 20):
This numbers do not show the O&D of the markets, so the 35000 passengers do not say a lot of the situation witch city is stronger for airtravel to spain/europe.

Oh boy, I never thought that I could ever hear such a ridiculous, hard-headed comment here. When you have no arguments to continue discussing something, just accept it instead of making a total fool of yourself.

Good luck searching for other numbers, you won't find them, or at least not as reliable as the ones given by the Aerocivil, the maximun aviation authority in the country. Cali-Madrid is the second largest O&D market between Colombia and Spain according to official statistics. Whether you or your personal experience agree or not is a completely different story, but facts are facts and there's no more to discuss there.



SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (7 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 21):
Oh boy, I never thought that I could ever hear such a ridiculous, hard-headed comment here. When you have no arguments to continue discussing something, just accept it instead of making a total fool of yourself.

1. a typical arrogant reply from our friend SOUTHAMERICA.
2. name if you whant yourself boy, but not me.
3. Nice to have at least 1 small commonality with you, to be a FOOL, not such big as you but on the right way ....

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 21):
Good luck searching for other numbers, you won't find them, or at least not as reliable as the ones given by the Aerocivil, the maximun aviation authority in the country. Cali-Madrid is the second largest O&D market between Colombia and Spain according to official statistics. Whether you or your personal experience agree or not is a completely different story, but facts are facts and there's no more to discuss there.

I can not see that your numbers from Aerocivil are O&D.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2496 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 2991 times:

When you learn to write in decent, understandable English I'll continue with pleasure. The only things I understood were "friend" and "SOUTHAMERICA".

I repeat:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 21):
Whether you or your personal experience agree or not is a completely different story, but facts are facts and there's no more to discuss there.

S.

[Edited 2006-04-30 21:07:33]

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (7 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
When you learn to write in decent, understandable English I'll continue with pleasure. The only things I understood were "friend" and "SOUTHAMERICA".

I repeat:

use

http://world.altavista.com/

there you can translate my post.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
25 Clo1973 : Cali`s industry is down the drain day-by-day???? I`m amaze of such a statement, so please (and since you are a fact-guy) let me give you some facts..
26 RCS763AV : They may have a couple of plants but the big industries are in BOG and MDE....
27 SOUTHAMERICA : Well, honestly, it shouldn't amaze you, because it's not me, it's a popular belief. It's actually funny to see you pretending to change that through
28 Clo1973 : Let me tell you one thing about "public perception", some public is sometimes ignorant of the facts and they just rely in what the media wants to let
29 Summa767 : Hey guys, I am not about to enter the debate. But just want to say that you have both made some good points, and that this debate has been good to rea
30 RICARIZA : Clo1973, Welcome to A.NET!
31 SOUTHAMERICA : I agree to some extent. Still, things are not that easy. I do agree that the biased media is a relatively valid excuse for Americans or Europeans; af
32 777jaah : The main thing here is that AV is doing great MAD route. I also think that if MED needs a flight to MAD sure AV will try in the future to have a nons
33 Clo1973 : Last saturday, an entire street (Av. Novena Norte, in the neighborhood of Granada) very well known in Cali because many fine restaurants are located
34 777jaah : Any adittional discussion about the convenience of having or if AV made the right decision to operate the route from CLO instead of MED is really beh
35 Clo1973 : You are right, AA first went to BOG, CLO and BAQ. They started MED after further negotiation between US and Colombian air authorities for flying righ
36 Post contains images RCS763AV : Well, this kinds of stuff happen all the time, at least, in Bogota. A couple of cultural events doesn´t mean the city is progressing, and Cali is go
37 777jaah : Please I beg you it's DOESN'T.............chill out man, not everyone is perfect.
38 Post contains images SOUTHAMERICA : Actually, AA opted to change BAQ for MDE. They probably would have liked to continue operating both stations, but in view that they could only choose
39 A300AA : Obviously, and see where they are right now......... One, disappear and the other under foreign investors. They had to lower their costs to compete,
40 RCS763AV : God you chill out, the happy face at the end meant it was just a funny suggestion...
41 Bogota : This is true, especially when they took into consideration that CO began direct CLO-IAH flights.
42 Post contains images SOUTHAMERICA : As if having a sense of customer service was what made them go under . The astronomical fees they were paying for their aircraft had absolutely nothi
43 Clo1973 : Actually , since the very beginning CO´s press announcement stated they would go for daily service in peak season (like they just did from early dece
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