AS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 3243 times:
First, from what I heard because they didn't serve the route daily. Its much harder to get the business traveller if you don't run a flight daily. Second was that SFO was an expensive airport for them to fly into. I know SFO is, but they must fly into others that are just as bad. And I'm guessing they just didn't have the demand.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
Swissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 3203 times:
Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 1): IIRC, it was due to terrible loads on the SFO-YYC flights. I'm not really in the know, but that is what I think happened.
Quoting AS739X (Reply 2): First, from what I heard because they didn't serve the route daily. Its much harder to get the business traveller if you don't run a flight daily. Second was that SFO was an expensive airport for them to fly into. I know SFO is, but they must fly into others that are just as bad. And I'm guessing they just didn't have the demand.
Copaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2953 times:
Quoting WJA737 (Reply 9): We are to go back into SFO form YYC,and YYZ.
When is this going to happen? That would be awesome. It was great seeing WestJet at SFO, miss seeing them there. What's the timetable? It would also be great to see another carrier on the SFO-YYZ route.
SunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4361 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2700 times:
I think WS has a big problem on U.S. destinations and it is named Aeroplan. If AC doesn't fly it then UA does. It would be interesting to know the percentage of the Canadian frequent flyer market controlled by Aeroplan. I would guess something in excess of 80%. I have family and friends who fly on business regularly in Canada and they are all Aeroplan members. The continued accumulation of these points keeps them very loyal!!
AAflyguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2669 times:
I do know that WJ's service to PSP performed incredibly well this winter. The load factor was above 90% (in Mar) for the 4x weekly service to both YYC & YVR. I'm sure there is a significant challenge, not only with the AC/UA "STAR Alliance" but also with Open Skies in general. I mean, until a decade ago, there was so little competition transborder. But the product WJ offers is very different than that of AC, and the fact that it offers a single-class of service and seatback Live TV are part of that differentiation. I would hope that the airline receives tremendous support for its product, because without it, I suspect fares within Canada and in competitive transborder markets would be much higher than exists today.
WJ will survive and thrive with some transborder markets, and those that are not performing at or near forecast are likely to be discontinued, as we've seen happen several times over the last year. PSP has a bright future with expanded WJ service, I believe. Wonder if AC will wake up and decide to provide some Canadian competition? I think we'll find out next winter.
Planenutz From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1280 posts, RR: 11 Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2606 times:
Another problem with WJ's SFO service was that the fare to YYC and points beyond was not competitive.
I was flying back and forth from SFO to YYC for work last year. UA/AC, DL and AS were always significantly cheaper. The frequency of flights were also a problem. Because the service wasn't daily, ther was less flexibility. Both UA and AC operate daily flights, and AS multiple daily services via SEA.
I would not connect PSP with true transborder service to destinations like LAX & SFO.
PSP is basically a charter operation which has been operated going back many years by Canadian carriers. (Remember Canada 3000) Matter of fact Westjet has a contract to fly to several such destinations (mostly Florida, Carrib, Mexico) on behalf of Air Transat Holiday whom takes the risk to fill the seats. http://www.transat.com/en/media_centre/2.0.media.centre.asp?id=891
Westjet's success with its own scheduled US services, have really been inconsistent.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
AAflyguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2385 times:
Laxintl, I remember Canada 3000, and Royal, and Air Transat, and even WestJet, all of which have offered charter service to PSP. That is no longer the case, however, nor has it been for some time. WestJet has no contract in place to put butts in seats on its PSP operation. The risk in operating the PSP service falls 100% on the company, not a 3rd party. The PSP market is much smaller than those major ones you mention, however, it is no less significant in the context of being considered a successful transborder market. I somewhat feel that the reason for a revenue passenger taking a trip is irrelevant. If they're paying, and the operator's bottom line is being met and/or exceeded, then it is supporting itself. The 4x weekly service from both YYC & YVR with WJ was more than a doubling of capacity for the airline over the previous/initial season, and HQ also operated 2x weekly B757s coupled with AS 5x weekly, both from YVR.
DFORCE1, I do expect that AC will be represented in PSP, and I expect it sooner than later. I say by 2008, its customers will be able to reach the desert on AC metal, not just aboard Star Alliance partner UA. The CRJ 705 and EMB jets are what will make this service viable.
This market is currently a seasonal one, specifically speaking on transborder demand. However, the local PSP area is growing rapidly, by more than 20,000 annually. Dependent upon the type of equipment and seats in the market, it could be sustained year-round in the future (3-5 years out).
Canada 3000 similarly operated scheduled service to PSP towards the end.
Essentially what has happened are the PSP, LAS, PHX, most of Florida which were bastions of Canadian charter operations are simply being marketed as scheduled service. There is little risk involved, as the destiantions have predictable snowbird traffic.
The true test of WestJet transborder strategy are the battles in the real markets such as LA, SFO, NYC where the carrier must battle for each and every passenger while also defending itself from a host of competing carriers.
Regretfully WestJet has not done a very good job to date.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Copaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2046 times:
Quoting MD90fan (Reply 20): How do you guys think Harmony is gonna do on OAK and JFK ?
Can't really say how JFK will do, as I don't know the specifics of that market, but I believe the OAK service will be fairly successful, as it is only 2x weekly. JFK will probably do fairly well too, as I don't believe there is that much, if any n/s service between YVR and JFK.
DFORCE1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2009 times:
Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 4): I wonder could WS have served Oakland from YYC or from other points in Canada (ie YYZ or YVR) and made a profit?
I guess we'll soon find out with Harmony on the YVR-OAK route twice weekly. Should do alright although I feel a 737 is better suited than a 757. But maybe Harmony will build some brand loyalty, it's likely to be the only carrier between BC and California where a meal is served.
Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 21): Can't really say how JFK will do, as I don't know the specifics of that market, but I believe the OAK service will be fairly successful, as it is only 2x weekly. JFK will probably do fairly well too, as I don't believe there is that much, if any n/s service between YVR and JFK.
I'm a little hesitant to make predictions on OAK as I don't know much about it but with only twice weekly service, they should have a reasonable chance of making a go at it.
As for JFK, AC operates the only service between YVR and JFK which is once daily. I think Harmony will fit in nicely. Business travellers will enjoy Harmony's outstanding service and although no PTV's, they do offer meals and Harmony One looks outstanding. Perhaps maybe even better than AC's Executive class. Has anyone been on either Harmony One and AC Executive? What's the comparison?