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Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG  
User currently offlineRumorboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 356 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7179 times:

Looks like they want cut or reject some of the leases at CVG. If this goes through the other airlines will probably get rent increases or even increase in landing fee's.


http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/s...006/04/24/daily70.html?jst=b_ln_hl

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

This was expected and I said it would happen in discussions re: DL's LAX lease.

Given that other carriers have such a small part of the CVG market, it is not likely they can make it up. There will be some loss to the bond issuers, just as there was for US in PIT.

DL probably doesn't want all of the facilities but that still doesn't mean another carrier can come in and set up shop. Unlike PIT, CVG is surrounded by cities with LFC service and DL is maintaining a significant portion of their service to CVG's local markets.


User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 1):
DL probably doesn't want all of the facilities but that still doesn't mean another carrier can come in and set up shop. Unlike PIT, CVG is surrounded by cities with LFC service and DL is maintaining a significant portion of their service to CVG's local markets.

Well, if this isn't familiar. Good luck CVG. This maybe the beginning of a long road ahead!



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7079 times:

The difference is that DL wants to keep CVG as a hub... US didn't and pulled down flights left and right and replaced whole markets w/ RJs... all the while charging exorbitant fares. Remember that DL tested Simplifares in CVG and the whole industry got to see how much or how little the market was stimulated by low fares. I suspect many LFCs crossed CVG off their list when they saw how little the market was stimulated by Simplifares.

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9182 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7036 times:

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 2):
Well, if this isn't familiar. Good luck CVG. This maybe the beginning of a long road ahead!



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
The difference is that DL wants to keep CVG as a hub... US didn't and pulled down flights left and right and replaced whole markets w/ RJs... all the while charging exorbitant fares.

Yeah, well idiot Lakefield in 2003 promised the city of Pittsburgh that they'd keep the hub at PIT. Then in November of the following year, the hub was gone... Why could he not be honest with the city. If you want to see where he promised the city, it's in an archived press release from the A.C.A.A. from September of 2003. There is also an archived article in either the Post Gazette or Tribune Review website...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6973 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

So this might free up some gates?? Where is WN?? lol.


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6924 times:

and CO and US are not the same company, Steeler.

You won't see WN in CVG... they have hardly grown in SLC which is a similarly sized market which has no WN cities surrounding it.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6880 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 5):
So this might free up some gates?? Where is WN?? lol.

CVG could use some WN right now! with IND, CMH nearby amongst others, folks in the metro area can save considerably by driving a couple of hours or so. Here in SLC we don't have that option since LAS is 400 miles away and DEN is over 500 miles.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6789 times:

Maybe there's a way to make Concourse 3A open to AA, UA, CO, NW, USA3000 and US and shut down Terminals 1 and 2? A has 28 gates domestic, mostly narrowbody, while B has 29 gates with customs. Without DL having a major hub there, they don't need to keep three facilities open like that.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6763 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
You won't see WN in CVG... they have hardly grown in SLC which is a similarly sized market which has no WN cities surrounding it.

WN still has a decent presence in SLC, and has actually added a second MDW and the four DEN flights within the past couple months:

8x LAS
7x PHX
4x DEN
4x LAX
4x OAK
3x BOI
3x SEA
2x STL
2x MDW
2x PDX
1x ABQ
1x GEG
1x BWI
1x RNO

I don't think CVG could support that many flights, but I bet they could support the typical WN "focus city" flights such as MDW, BWI, BNA, LAS, PHX, and maybe MCO or somewhere in Florida.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6763 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
The difference is that DL wants to keep CVG as a hub...

We have no idea what DL wants or will do at this point.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2273 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Maybe there's a way to make Concourse 3A open to AA, UA, CO, NW, USA3000 and US and shut down Terminals 1 and 2? A has 28 gates domestic, mostly narrowbody, while B has 29 gates with customs. Without DL having a major hub there, they don't need to keep three facilities open like that

my thoughts exactly, consolidate the remaining airlines in concourse A, and DL and OH would have B & C


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6675 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 10):
We have no idea what DL wants or will do at this point.

Every indication is that CVG is doing what it was intended to do without being excessively dependent on flow traffic as it was before. DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG. They've had every chance of doing so before and they didn't.

And if you doubt that the city of Cinti and KCAB will fight to keep DL in its present form, how many mainline flights and destinations does CLE, IND, or PIT have? And how many of those have nonstop service to 5 overseas destinations plus Hawaii. Nada. KCAB doesn't want to take a bath on the lease but they sure as heck do not want to lose DL.


User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1603 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6675 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
Yeah, well idiot Lakefield in 2003

It was David Siegel. Lakefield was hired after Siegel "resigned" in 2004.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6630 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Every indication is that CVG is doing what it was intended to do without being excessively dependent on flow traffic as it was before. DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG. They've had every chance of doing so before and they didn't.

And if you doubt that the city of Cinti and KCAB will fight to keep DL in its present form, how many mainline flights and destinations does CLE, IND, or PIT have? And how many of those have nonstop service to 5 overseas destinations plus Hawaii. Nada. KCAB doesn't want to take a bath on the lease but they sure as heck do not want to lose DL.

All the same things were said about PIT and US, and enlighten me on how that turned out. Nothing is over until the fat lady sings.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6630 times:

Am I reading the article right? They want to reject Terminal 3, Concouse B? B is DL's main terminal, that includes 29 gates, international gates and the Crown Rooms/Business Elite lounge. That would leave them with Concourse A, which is partially occupied by DCI, CO and NW. Concourse A has no international gates, has limited room for widebodies, no Crown Room and is pretty ratty when compared to B.


Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6612 times:

Yes you are reading it right,

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG

Might want to check again as in this case the glass is half empty, and not half full!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6564 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Maybe there's a way to make Concourse 3A open to AA, UA, CO, NW, USA3000 and US and shut down Terminals 1 and 2? A has 28 gates domestic, mostly narrowbody, while B has 29 gates with customs. Without DL having a major hub there, they don't need to keep three facilities open like that.

The ATA brief a few weeks ago stated US was moving it's operations to Terminal 2 and closing Terminal 1. I think in June.

Also, two weeks ago I was in CVG for the night and the big news was LCC was going to annouce CVG service to 3 markets in the upcoming month.

Combine the 2 things above, there will be no room in Terminal 2 once US moves and Terminal 3 concourses are tapped out.


KCAB is in bad shape, the bonds were reduced to junk. The new DHL (7/04) facility is empty, a few days after opening a new runway DL has a +25% reduction in service, Mesaba closed it's maintenance facility and the 2 largest tenants, under the same umbrella, are in bankruptcy.


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6523 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 16):
Yes you are reading it right,

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG

Might want to check again as in this case the glass is half empty, and not half full!

If this is their true intent, Concourse A has 26 gates, of which CO and NW have 4, DCI has 12, which would leave DL with 10 gates. Things aren't looking good at OH, with talk of shuttering them down if they can't get their costs down soon. So if OH goes down, I could see COncourse C going as well. All of this could spell doom for CVG and points to DL pulling it down to a focus city, at best. Hopefully the rejection is just a move to get cheaper lease rates.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 15):
Am I reading the article right? They want to reject Terminal 3, Concouse B? B is DL's main terminal, that includes 29 gates, international gates and the Crown Rooms/Business Elite lounge. That would leave them with Concourse A, which is partially occupied by DCI, CO and NW. Concourse A has no international gates, has limited room for widebodies, no Crown Room and is pretty ratty when compared to B.

bum,
you reject the leases on the facilities for which you want to reduce the rent payments. Just because DL rejects the leases on these facilities doesn't mean they will leave and just because they haven't rejected the lease on Concourse A doesn't mean they will stay there.

CVG had very limited facilities when DL set up shop so there was an obvious need for better facilities for a city of CVG's size. DL really built its facilities to serve as a hub operation so they aren't ideal for local passengers.

CVG will probably still have better air service than other cities its size in the midwest.... and other airlines spent alot more building new facilities that will never be used than what DL spent in CVG. KCAB will lose a much smaller amount than other cities have lost. However, if they try to recoup the losses through grossly higher landing fees, they'll price themselves out of air service completely.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 17):
Combine the 2 things above, there will be no room in Terminal 2 once US moves and Terminal 3 concourses are tapped out.

Even though I hate T2 and the tunnel with few seats design it has, I suppose it could work as a WN terminal, and move everyone else to 3A.

DL claim they want 3A and not B, but this might be a ploy by DL to get a lease on B for the terms they would have gotten for a lease on A. As was said, the region will do what they can to keep DL in B so that they keep the international options open.

Putting DL in A doesn't close down the option of International for DL, however, as it would likely involve DL having international arrivals in B, but departures in A. Deplane the pax, move the jet via tug to A. Works at many other airports around the world. 28 gates is a lot of gates, and they could open a new transfer facility for buses to concourse C.

But B has far better facilities for food and shops and all that than does A. Not sure why DL would truly want A instead.

Either way, I don't see CVG as a market that supports 5 terminals as it stands now, nor even 4 if they only close T1. With DL de-emphasizing the hub for mainline traffic at CVG, the T3 complex should cover things just fine.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9182 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

Quoting N670UW (Reply 13):
It was David Siegel. Lakefield was hired after Siegel "resigned" in 2004.

One of these day's I'll get it right  Smile

Pardon me Lakefield  embarrassed  I meant David Siegel. eehhehehehehh...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineCVG72 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6416 times:

Well guys, it was a good run. Hopefully we can welcome in WN and B6. As for DL, I'll be off to HNL and SXM spending my remaining SkyMiles while they're convienent.

CVG72



Roll Tide // Next: UA/EV/LH CVG-EWR-FRA-DUS-MUC-EWR-CVG
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2972 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

What about SLC? I was there two weeks ago and walked throughout every concourse. It seemed that many DL gates had very few flights throughout the day...perhaps 4 or 5 each (mainline, that is). If DL really wants to cut leases, it should be at SLC, not CVG.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineIH8B6 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 208 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
CVG could use some WN right now!



Quoting Iowaman (Reply 9):
I don't think CVG could support that many flights, but I bet they could support the typical WN "focus city" flights such as MDW, BWI, BNA, LAS, PHX, and maybe MCO or somewhere in Florida.



Quoting CVG72 (Reply 22):
Well guys, it was a good run. Hopefully we can welcome in WN and B6.

No LCCs will come to CVG. They've tried. Delta matches the fares and the LCC eventually pulls out. Ironically, with the exception of Air Canada, Delta staff works above and below wing LCC flights on a contract.

Here has been my problem with James Pilcher of the Cincinnati Enquirer and all of they whiners that write 'letters to the editors' about Delta vs. LCCs when LCCs pull out: They bitch about Delta matching the fares and the LCC then complains that they have a low load factor.

Well, if all the complainers would quit crying and show some loyalty to your beloved LCC then you wouldn't have Airtrash (twice), Vanguard (twice), and Air Canada coming in, touting flights, dropping fares, having no load factor, losing money, and pulling out.

Then the letters to the editor comes in: "To the editor: I hate Delta. It is unfair to me that I have to pack up my screaming kids, drive to _ _ _ (insert city here), and fly out of there. It is not fair. This shouldn't be a free market. Wha, wha. I wanted to fly Airtrash, but Delta matched the fares, so I opted for the schedule convenience and my skymiles and flew Delta. But now the Delta fares are back up because airtrash is gone! Wha wha wha….." Signed, Moron in Cincinnati.

The letter that should be written back: "Dear Moron, quit bitching and drive yourself and your stupid kids to Florida. Signed, your favorite airline."

That's about how it goes. If people would put their money where their mouth is and fly on the LCCs and not Delta when the fares are matched we wouldn't have this problem and I would sleep better at night.

Go Greyhound.



Over-moderation sucks
25 Apodino : How much harder will this whole ordeal make it for CVG to pay for the new runway? And why not this for a solution. Tear down one and two, and then bui
26 DL763DFW : LOL.... nicely put. I agree with you on this one, theres too much bitching and not enough action on the part of the consumer. Everybody wants somethi
27 Meister808 : Great idea, but to do that you need to come up with some sort of money to demolish the old stuff. Since CVG has got to be hurting since it is already
28 CaptainStorck : DHL bought both an airline and an airport when they acquired Airborne; it only made sense to make use of a facility which they owned and could operat
29 Post contains images DAL767400ER : That is actually still part of CVG's master plan, along with an expansion of Terminal 3. Though that same masterplan also includes an 80-gate RJ term
30 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : This brings up the question as to what airline would want to expand CVG? They said the same thing about DFW, before it went to about 20 flights a day
31 FlyPNS1 : Right now, DL has way too many gates at CVG. Look at Concourse B, there's 29 gates, yet DL has less than 100 mainline flights a day. That's barely 3 f
32 TOLtommy : If you think WN is using the business model they were using 5 years ago, you are correct. But they are not. WN entered maor hubs of weaker competitor
33 Luv2fly : I agree and disagree, remember WN is already in IND, CMH and SDF. I myself think that Spirit/NK might be the carrier that is coming into CVG!
34 WorldTraveler : If CVG can attract another carrier who is willing to take on what DL wants to keep, more power to them. Of course, part of this may well be that DL is
35 Luv2fly : No dead on the money! PROOF?
36 AvConsultant : You're thinking it will be WN? Interesting. Very true, plus the airports are very political and any airport director not having a growth plan would c
37 WorldTraveler : DOT filings. US airlines are required to file enough data w/ the DOT for the government and other airlines to see that DL's CVG int'l flights should
38 Ikramerica : Yeah, I know. Skyteam members are all in 3. So is USA300 right now. AA and UA are in T2, US in T1. How does that change anything about what I said? I
39 Midway2AirTran : Apparently DL didn't stimulate a lot of passenger traffic, but they definitely stimulated interest through simplifares as their website was over-flow
40 Positiverate : It never ceases to amaze me how little support incumbent carriers at a hub city get from the local community. All people ever seem to do is complain.
41 Luv2fly : It is a two way street! Yes DL provided a service, and it has been paid for by the local traveling public with high fares for years. It has been told
42 WorldTraveler : But the bottom line is that DL's super low fares didn't stimulate the volume of traffic necessary to support the high volume of flights they have. Per
43 Luv2fly : News flash they never had "super low fares" the only time is when Vangaurd come into town and DL quickly ran them out, and guess what once gone the f
44 FlyPNS1 : As Luv2fly pointed out, Simplifares weren't very low and certainly weren't low enough to stimulate a lot of traffic. Not to mention that Simplifares
45 Ikramerica : DL treated CVG like a captive market and charged fares there to make up for lower fares in other cities. They would only lower fares whenever anyone d
46 Luv2fly : No CVG would be wise to run the airport like a business and stop being held hostage by one airline. Just like PIT, and look just how better PIT is do
47 TOLtommy : I hear ya, but I'm sure WN knew how much traffic was driving from PIT to airports like CAK and CLE, and especially how much was driving to BWI from P
48 TOLtommy : You'd do it for ease of connection. You obviously missed my point, and maybe you haven't been to the ticketing/bag claim part of T3. As currently con
49 WorldTraveler : Newsflash: No airline is making money at super low fares, including B6 and WN. WN is making money because of their finance dept's decision to hedge fu
50 Luv2fly : And yes another carrier will come in and life goes on! People will take what is offered and connect if they have to.
51 Steeler83 : They weren't exactly shown the door by the A.C.A.A., Siegel decided to close the hub to save money and to build up hubs in growing markets in PHL and
52 CentPIT : PIT is fine now. I am sure we will see flights come and go. I think it would be interesting to see WN and or B6 in CVG!
53 Steeler83 : PIT's service is good right now. As far as WN or B6 going into CVG, it might be some time. You are right though; that would be thrilling!!! Although,
54 USPIT10L : Lakefield doesn't deserve much respect, either, Steeler83. You've watched them nearly crumble under his leadership the last couple years. Doug Parker
55 Ejmmsu : Is that why CVG and MEM are so much more popular for conventions and tourists?.... oh wait... they aren't.
56 FlyPNS1 : And do you think having some of the highest fares in the nation will help lure conventions and tourists? I don't think so. Even w/o fuel hedges, WN s
57 HVNandrew : K. You're missing the point. Other airlines will come in to add service, yes. But nobody, NOBODY, is ever going to have the route network that DL had
58 Luv2fly : No I am not missing the point. We do not even know as DL goes through bankruptcy what of the DL CVG route network will remain.
59 Steeler83 : Then it's more like, "who cares, they both sucked..." I hope that Parker will be the CEO for many years to come
60 JetBlueLuv : I am so tired of the bashing of the MEM and CVG hubs on this forum! Yes, they aren't super-hubs a la LGA or CLT; however, having a hub certainly help
61 SESGDL : LGA's a superhub? But seriously, DL's not leaving CVG, just downsizing a bit. A carrier would be stupid to leave one of the highest yielding cities i
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