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Status Of Russian Aircraft?  
User currently offlineWaterpolodan From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1649 posts, RR: 5
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

With all the constant talk about Boeing and Airbus orders, I've gotten to thinking about what sort of orders Tupolev and Illyushin have recieved recently/are in negotiation for in the future. I suppose the only viable aircraft that could recieve orders would be the Tu 204 and the Il96M... what is the status of the Il96M anyway? There are pictures of the stretched 96 with western engines on this site, but they are all from the late '90s at various airshows... As for the 204, how is the -300 version different than the earlier models? Any order prospects? I'm a big fan of those russian jets, and I'd love to see more of them in the air... I'd imagine both of those aircraft companies must be struggling financially, and it'd be a shame to see such great names go under.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting Waterpolodan (Thread starter):
As for the 204, how is the -300 version different than the earlier models? Any order prospects? I'm a big fan of those russian jets, and I'd love to see more of them in the air... I'd imagine both of those aircraft companies must be struggling financially, and it'd be a shame to see such great names go under.

Well, they're great, if you can get over the reliability, build quality, and fuel consumption issues - which are so bad even Aeroflot buys Boeing and Airbus



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting Waterpolodan (Thread starter):
I'm a big fan of those russian jets, and I'd love to see more of them in the air... I'd imagine both of those aircraft companies must be struggling financially, and it'd be a shame to see such great names go under.

I use to think the same thing until I actually visited Russia. After seeing how they treat their educated professionals still, I personally doubt we will see any Russian developments. There certainly is the infrastructure there to build competitive jets. If Brazil can start from scratch and become a leader in small jets, than Russia certainly could regain its glory.

However Russia lacks the drive and motivation in my opinion. Engineers are not well paid to work there. Manual laborers earn just as much as someone that studied engineering for five years in college. I just can't see more successful designs coming from Russia. The planes they have built are impressive. I got to fly on one just two weeks ago. But nowadays, I don't think we will see Aeroflot ordering Russian jets. Sure there are heavy import taxes on airplanes and Russian airplanes cost about a third as much as their western counterparts, but serious design is not happening on them. The last truly successful Russian jet was the Tu-154M and that was built in the early 80s at the same time as the 757.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3011 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 1):
Well, they're great, if you can get over the reliability, build quality, and fuel consumption issues - which are so bad even Aeroflot buys Boeing and Airbus

Absolutely inaccurate statement! The aircraft are extremely reliable, their build quality is great. Yes, fuel consumption has issues with older a/c. The Il-96 has normal fuel consumption. Aeroflot has more IL-96 aircraft on order, as well as a large order for a future Russian short-haul aircraft. One of the main reasons Western carriers can't order Russian a/c is maintenance is a problem. Can you imagine ferrying the plane to Russia every single time it has a maintenance issue?
Stating that Russian a/c have reliability issues and are bad quality is a completely childish statement that has nothing backing it up.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4104 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 1):
Well, they're great, if you can get over the reliability, build quality, and fuel consumption issues - which are so bad even Aeroflot buys Boeing and Airbus

Wrong. I can only speak for Tupolevs here, but I can say that the build quality and reliability is not worse than that of Boeing. The fuel consumption has nothing to do with the aircraft but the engines. PS90A's don't eat that much fuel, in any case you can put Rolls Royce's on there. As Aeroflot777 pointed out correctly, maintanence is an issue with western carriers. One of the major issues with Cubana taking our 204's right now is the need to ferry them to Ulyanovsk for C and D checks as well as any unplanned maintanence. Flying an empty plane from Havana to Ulyanovsk and back with a fuel stop is not cheap. If someone spend some 20 million created a maintanence base in south america then south american carriers would be much more interested in the aircraft. Look at Boeing, they are based in Seattle but have a developed infrastructure, parts do not have to be flown in from Seattle - there are many places around that world that have them "in stock" so that a minor problem with the aircraft does not ground it for 3 days untill the part is delivered to somewhere half way around the world.
Lets not get started on Aeroflot, the reason that they buy A or B is not because of reliability or fuel economy, its something very different.  Sad

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
But nowadays, I don't think we will see Aeroflot ordering Russian jets.

RRJ

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
However Russia lacks the drive and motivation in my opinion. Engineers are not well paid to work there. Manual laborers earn just as much as someone that studied engineering for five years in college.

I would say bad management is more of an issue. We have the worst marketing division of any company that I have ever seen in my life. This is what happens when you have a bunch of engineers run a company - yes, the product is good, but you can't get it out to the consumers because the people that have that ability are incometent when it comes to sales and marketing! Hewlett Packard is a good example where this didn't happen because the engineers "live" in one building and do their jobs, while the management (that ARE managers, they have business degrees, not engineering) "live" in another and they do not tell each other how to do their jobs! I talked to a person from an Iranian airline that told me it was a huge pain just to get to talk with our sales division! I am not even going to start about the "negotiations" process! He went as far as to suggest that we hire Turkish (no offence) street merchants from any market in Moscow to sit at the bargaining table.
Politics also get in the way. The government (our majority shareholder) is not letting a certain american company invest in our own Regional Jet project because it would be a direct competitor (and cost less) than Sukhoi's RRJ! The Tu334 was delayed for almost 5 years because of political problems in the Ukraine.
If anyone wants I can describe these problems and more in detail. There is nothing wrong with our product.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Thread starter):
As for the 204, how is the -300 version different than the earlier models?

The -300 version has a shorter fusulage and an additional fuel tank to give it much longer range. Same wings and engines but enlarged tail fin (for leverage). Assembled in Ulyanovsk. Under same type rating as the 204/214. It is basically a IL6 replacement with the same capacity but it eats about 55-60% less fuel. Its development was very cheap as it is a derivative and was sponsored by some banks in the far east and Vladivostok Avia.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Thread starter):
Il96M... what is the status of the Il96M anyway? There are pictures of the stretched 96 with western engines on this site, but they are all from the late '90s at various airshows

I made a detailed post about this yesterday or the day before. Basically it has been restarted and Illyushin is taking orders, it is called the IL-96-400 and has PS90A2 engines.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Thread starter):
Any order prospects?

RRJ

Quoting Waterpolodan (Thread starter):
I'd imagine both of those aircraft companies must be struggling financially

Well, we could use some investments to expedite things. Sukhoi has absolutely no problems with funding though.  Smile

Any other questions?



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Isn't Mx friendly in terms of Documentation in English an Issue.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Aviation professionals with whom I am acquainted tell me that most of the mainstream Russian designs are well-engineered and robustly-constructed, with durability at the core of their designs that rivals Douglas standards (and we know this to be high praise indeed).

As referenced above, the overarching concern for any purchaser is and shall remain after-sales support, related both to concerns (valid or not) about the long-term stability of the manufacturer, and to the lack of world-wide support infrastructure.

It would be heartening, on a number of different levels, to see one or two lines of Russian aircraft make a real dent in the commercial airframe marketplace. Competition and greater selection tends to improve the breed across the market.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineOlegShv From Sweden, joined Mar 2006, 683 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 1):
Well, they're great, if you can get over the reliability, build quality, and fuel consumption issues - which are so bad even Aeroflot buys Boeing and Airbus

I respectfully disagree. Concerning the build quality - Russian aircraft seem to be more robust than Western counterparts. They can handle much more abuse, such as crappy runways and hard landings. Reliability: look at Tu-154, this plane has been around for a while, we are talking decades here. You can't expect too much from an old plane. I would think taking the same age Western aircraft - reliabilty is comparable.

Newer planes like Il-96, Tu-204 - well, there were only a handful of them built so far (I think less than 20 units each! correct me if I'm wrong here though), so they did not rectify all the early production problems yet. Fuel consumption - yes, it's not great even for the newer PS90 engines - definitely it's not the leader in the class, but comparable to the performance of Western engines.

I wish the Russian government would have a motivation to develop high tech industries in the country, such as aiviation industry. So far Mr. Putin is only concerned with milking his oil tycoons. This is very bad strategy, or perhaps a lack of thereof, since oil and natural gas will sometime diminish. I hope someone smarter than a former KGB spy will come to power in Russia and will change things for good in academia, education, and high technologies.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Isn't Mx friendly in terms of Documentation in English an Issue.
regds
MEL

I doubt that translating documentation to English (or other languages) would be a huge problem. Sukhoi is selling its fighter planes to China and Malaysia - I'm sure they translated all the documentaiton there. Same can be done with civilian aircraft.

Regards,

Oleg.


User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

Quoting Waterpolodan (Thread starter):
I suppose the only viable aircraft that could receive orders would be the Tu 204 and the Il96M

Don't forget Antonov 148 series (regional jets), also a newer version of IL-96 is on the way, I looked at IL-96-400, it 's awesome, with a large lower deck for use other than cargo.

There's a talk of merging Ilyushin with other smaller aircraft makers like Yakolev, etc into one company, forgot the name, it's about time. It's a shame that Russia can't market their products (although the potential may not be as great as A or B) to their target areas, some of their potential markets include-

Air Koryo - they need to replace those aging TU-154s with 204s along with few AN-148s

Iran Air - I'm surprised no sales have been made.

Secondary African/Asian/LatAm markets - with the planes costing 1/3 vs A/B counterparts, some can provide long-haul services with TU-204s.


User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Isn't Mx friendly in terms of Documentation in English an Issue

Are you saying that I can't do my job?  Wink I don't entirely understand what you mean though. There is no real problem with documentation. It can be translated easily. The problem with mx is the availability of spare parts on short notice.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently onlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4640 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 1):
build quality

You're so wrong on that as others have pointed out.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 3):
One of the main reasons Western carriers can't order Russian a/c is maintenance is a problem. Can you imagine ferrying the plane to Russia every single time it has a maintenance issue?

This is really strange. It's a shame no-one is ordering 30 frames of a Russian jet and having their own maintenance division. It'll take a while I guess...

English documentation would be somewhat of a problem. The English on the Aeroflot web site leaves a lot to be desired for example...

I guess it all comes down to marketing and efficiency in the end.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 10):
English documentation would be somewhat of a problem. The English on the Aeroflot web site leaves a lot to be desired for example...

Is my english really that bad ClassicLover? I am the one that translated the operating manual for the Tu204-120CE and I signed off on it.  Wink But I do agree with you that it is a problem - to have a good translation you need someone fluent in both languages and there is a limited pool of such individuals, especially ones that are fluent in aviation terminology. The people I am working with right now are university graduates but they still cannot grasp some "basics" that you can only aquire by living in an english speaking country for as long as I have. The operating manual for the 204-120CE is quality material. I wish I could say the same for Cubana's IL-96 manuals or some other documentation for the 204 that I must now correct because it was not done properly the first time around.
P.S. I have no training as a translator, no degrees or anything. I am about to complete a degree in aviation.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently onlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4640 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 11):
Is my english really that bad ClassicLover? I am the one that translated the operating manual for the Tu204-120CE and I signed off on it.

Your English is superb and you know it  Smile It's better than the English of some of the native English speakers on this board...

It sounds like you have a very interesting job! Something I wanted to ask -

What are the outstanding orders for Russian commercial aircraft right now? As in, who has what on order, and what are the total order backlogs for the various types?



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3798 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
Quoting Tu204 (Reply 11):
Is my english really that bad ClassicLover? I am the one that translated the operating manual for the Tu204-120CE and I signed off on it.

Your English is superb and you know it Smile It's better than the English of some of the native English speakers on this board...

Some?!?



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineWaterpolodan From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3771 times:

Just wanted to thank everyone for the replies to my questions so far, some very interesting insight, particularly from Tu204... I love how international this board is, I was expecting answers from people that had maybe read some article about Tupolev/Illyushin in a magazine, instead I get a reply from an actual Tupolev employee! Tu 204, you're going on my respect list  Smile

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13252 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3757 times:
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There is more to this issue than some of the discussions I read here. Yes, Russian aircraft are built more robust than a Boeing or Airbus. Partially this is due to the mandate to land and takeoff with more snow on the runway than is allowed at western airports. Weight translates directly to added fuel burn. There is no escaping that.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 4):
The fuel consumption has nothing to do with the aircraft but the engines.

I wish that was the case  bigthumbsup  But its not. Historically, half of the improvement in fuel burn comes from airframe improvements and half from the engines. While Russian aerodynamicists are good... they do not have the CFD capabilities of Boeing, Airbus, GE, Pratt, or RR. That alone costs them about 3% more fuel burn. The added "robustness" absolutely kills the airframe economics from a Western perspective.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I use to think the same thing until I actually visited Russia. After seeing how they treat their educated professionals still, I personally doubt we will see any Russian developments. There certainly is the infrastructure there to build competitive jets. If Brazil can start from scratch and become a leader in small jets, than Russia certainly could regain its glory.

I read somewhere that ~50% of the Russian scientists and engineers have emigrated to the West. I can't vouch for this, but I know I work with a half dozen who are motivated, excellently educated, and are some of my department's best engineers. So without this talent, Russia will have a hard time competing with A&B. Not impossible... but difficult.

Quoting Sccutler (Reply 6):
Aviation professionals with whom I am acquainted tell me that most of the mainstream Russian designs are well-engineered and robustly-constructed, with durability at the core of their designs that rivals Douglas standards (and we know this to be high praise indeed).

I've heard the durability can actually exceed Douglas.

Here is what the Russian manufacturers need to change to have a competitive produce (forgive me for repeating much of what has already been mentioned.) Do note that their designs are overall good, but without most of these topics being improved... forget selling to the west.

1. More LRU (Line replacable units). Sorry, but I've disceted Russian aircraft and engines. While I respect a lot of weight can be saved by welding components together into assemblies rather than bolting... It translates into Russian aircraft having too many components that aren't LRU's; The same components that are LRU's in Western Aircraft. I'm sure the TU-204 is better... but even without ever touching that airframe I'm also sure more of the components are welded than LRU. This kills turn times and increases the likelyhood that the airframe is grounded due to lack of an expensive spare parts. For example, I've seen russian gearboxes welded together where the most common to fail components are hidden away. In Western gearboxes they assembly is bolted and with a simple soft goods kit (maybe more) the gearbox can be fixed on the ground. I've seen it done "in a panic" in less than 2 hours. A 2 hour delay costs an airline a lot more than a longer delay that is due to parts being flown in.

2. Weight. Yes, being able to land in snow and win a fight with a snow plow gives one bragging rights... it also kills cargo lift and range. While it was more for other reasons, compare the A332 vs. B764 compititions. Lack of range and cargo killed 764 sales...

3. Turn times. I've talked with mechanics who have worked Russian designs and there is simply a lot more "touch time" required to turn an airframe than a Boeing. As an example, look at the dissatisfaction of A332 operators who try to use them domestically. The A332 is a great trans-ocean airframe, but its economics suck on the short haul due to the design not making enough provisions for a quick turn.  Sad Note: I love the A332... but even designs I like must have their faults recognized.

4. Parts. Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, and Bombardier all bend over backwards to set up regional parts centers. Tu204 discussed this well so I'll move on.

5. Manuals and continuous design improvement. Once a Boeing or Airbus gets into the fleet both of them continually "fix and improve" the airframes. Most of it on little things we don't hear about. None of the Russian design Buearus have adopted this phylosophy. Yes, partially due to tallent... Some is the culture of customer support (or lack of it).

6. Resale Gaurantees. Ok, I'm going to lump into this into "appeasing leasing agencies." Since most airline lease at lease part of their fleet... Not modifying designs to ease airline to airline transfer... etc. Add to this the lack of a strong aftermarket. Yes, every new airframe must climb this hill. But Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, and Embraer all figured out how to reduce the risk for the leasing companies (e.g., Europe, the USA, Canada, and Brazil all offered low interest loans if you buy their airframes). Unfortunately, some of this comes under "you must have money to make money."  Sad

Both 5 and 6 come under Sccutler's comment:

Quoting Sccutler (Reply 6):

As referenced above, the overarching concern for any purchaser is and shall remain after-sales support, related both to concerns (valid or not) about the long-term stability of the manufacturer, and to the lack of world-wide support infrastructure.

I truely want the Russian economy, including aerospace, to develop a healthy capitalist market. But the world economy has become customer focused and have their requirements.

Now Russian aircraft have good aerodynamics and a great tradition of making excellent designs. Let's see if the RRJ steps up to the plate.  Smile

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
Your English is superb and you know it It's better than the English of some of the native English speakers on this board...

It sounds like you have a very interesting job! Something I wanted to ask -

What are the outstanding orders for Russian commercial aircraft right now? As in, who has what on order, and what are the total order backlogs for the various types?

Thanks  Smile To be honest, I hate translating. When I was in school I always had classmates coming up to me after hearing some song (in English) and saying "can you please translate this" or asking me to say something in English for them. It got on my nerves. But what I do now I absolutely love, I would have done it for free if they asked me to. They will help me with my type rating, which is worth it's weight in gold to me.  Smile
About the backlog, I can only speak for the orders we have and I never seen an actual list with all our orders but I can check when I go to work, which will be only on the 2nd since Monday is a holiday. The Chinese are doing to take 10 Tu-204-120CE's (they ordered 5 and exercised their 5 options just now). Cubana will take 3 and are looking in to taking more (depends on whether or not they get financing). Transaero has 10 214's coming on a 15 year lease. Dalavia and Kras Air are taking some (don't know how many though) and Vladivostok is taking some more -300's (2 for certain, we want them to take 4 more) That's all that I can remember off the top of my head. There are also some orders from certain airlines in the mid east that have yet to be finalised. Almost all orders (including the ones I listed) are going to Illyushin Finance Corporation, who in turn lease the aircraft to the respective airline.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineSmithAir747 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1632 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Tu204,

Is your company (Tupolev) still building the Tu154?

I really enjoy watching (and photographing) Russian aircraft at LHR, especially the Pulkovo Tu154M and the Aeroflot IL-96.

Please let me know if the Tu154 is still in production. Thanks!

SmithAir747



I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

Quoting SmithAir747 (Reply 17):
Is your company (Tupolev) still building the Tu154?

I really enjoy watching (and photographing) Russian aircraft at LHR, especially the Pulkovo Tu154M and the Aeroflot IL-96.

Please let me know if the Tu154 is still in production. Thanks!

Unfortunately it isn't. The last one was completed in the late 90's. The factory that built them in Samara is now the major maintanence facility where they overhaul the 154's.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3576 times:

There are several Canadian airports that might do well with an Ilyushin maintenance center, provided that there would be a north american market for Russian jets (which I think there certainly could be). Gander in Newfoundland, Goose Bay, Labrador, or even poor CFB Shearwater in Halifax, which has been slated for eventual closure, if I'm not mistaken. Shearwater has at least two runways and a large amount of land available. If the C-5 can land there, an IL-96 could. All three airports are well situated geographically in relation to trans-atlantic flights and the economies of all three regions would do well to have the industry.

Of course I'm just fantasizing at 3:00am, but I'm very happy to hear so much interest and appreciation in Russian civil aircraft design. I've loved the IL-96 from day one and I wish the very best in prosperity for the company. Cheers for the info, Tu-204.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3550 times:

I'm surprised no one has touched on the supposed consolidation of the Russian aircraft industry. While merging 19 manufacturers and design bureaus is a huge undertaking it is also an opportunity for the Russians to completely re-invent the way they do business.

An industry based around the:

RRJ- 60-95 seats
MS-21 130-170 seats
TU-204 170-210 seats
IL-96/98 240-300 seats (the 98 using engines designed for the 787 and 350)

can become a viable third player (albeit very minor) in the market. Having the resources to pool design, marketing and support is a tremendous opportunity to create a customer focused Russian company.

I hope they are successful. Two companies is not enough.


User currently offlineIL76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2237 posts, RR: 48
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

I'm sure Russian aircraft sales will pick up, now that more and more countries want to bypass/ban the USA and Western Zionist world...  Wink
Half of the Middle Eastern countries are not all too happy with the West and I just read that Castro, Chavez and Morales put up a trade agreement for the 3 South American countries to counter the influence of the USA.
So where do you get your planes from? Russia suddenly becomes a nice alternative.  Smile
Ok, I'm cutting corners here (don't take it too seriously), but who knows what will happen?


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Quoting IL76 (Reply 21):

How Fuel efficient are the New russian Aircraft,considering Western Engine use.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 20):
There are several Canadian airports that might do well with an Ilyushin maintenance center, provided that there would be a north american market for Russian jets (which I think there certainly could be). Gander in Newfoundland, Goose Bay, Labrador, or even poor CFB Shearwater in Halifax, which has been slated for eventual closure, if I'm not mistaken. Shearwater has at least two runways and a large amount of land available. If the C-5 can land there, an IL-96 could. All three airports are well situated geographically in relation to trans-atlantic flights and the economies of all three regions would do well to have the industry.

Of course I'm just fantasizing at 3:00am, but I'm very happy to hear so much interest and appreciation in Russian civil aircraft design. I've loved the IL-96 from day one and I wish the very best in prosperity for the company. Cheers for the info, Tu-204.

After I went to bed, I thought about how stupid my post was. Tu-204 obviously works for Tupolev and not Ilyushin (right?) and thus wishing his company luck and talking about the IL-96 seems a little dumb. In any case, best of luck to the whole Russian aviation industry. I'd like to see them start competiting with an A and B dominated market.


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