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Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?  
User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

I know, I know, another A vs B thread. But I started thinking about this when looking through the top photos and came across a picture of dozens and dozens of B-52s getting scrapped in the desert.

How much extra money do you think Boeing has made over Airbus from all those B-52s, not to mention the 707 conversions, etc etc that its used to its advantage? This sounds like a flaky question the way I've written it, but it Airbus doesn't really have that history of massive amounts of bombers or anything, yet somehow, they're head to head in the civil world. Does anyone think the military production has put Boeing at some sort of advantage over Airbus? Or does it matter any more?

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting Irobertson (Thread starter):
How much extra money do you think Boeing has made over Airbus from all those B-52s, not to mention the 707 conversions, etc etc that its used to its advantage?

This is an incredibly convoluted question, so don't expect a simple answer.

Boeing's IDS and BCA divisions are two totally different inteties opperated almost independently of one another. Of course Boeing IDS contributes to a large factor of the Boeing Company's bottom line, and the Boeing Company is a substantially larger aerospace firm than EADS.

Remember that the U.S. DoD and SEC enforce very strict rules about revenue sharing between military and commercial products, contrary to the A.net popular opinion that defense projects "subsidize" Boeing. In the past few years, Boeing has had to reproduce all sorts of data from the 80s and 90s to prove that the B787 does not incorperate certin technologies contracted to Boeing IDS.

In terms of the commercial division, why not also ask how much more money Boeing has made by supporting MD/Boeing aircraft made generations before Airbus existed?


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4042 times:

Quoting Irobertson (Thread starter):
This sounds like a flaky question the way I've written it, but it Airbus doesn't really have that history of massive amounts of bombers or anything, yet somehow, they're head to head in the civil world

But Airbus's suppliers were defense contractors. Airbus's owners are defense contractors.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Remember that the U.S. DoD and SEC enforce very strict rules about revenue sharing between military and commercial products, contrary to the A.net popular opinion that defense projects "subsidize" Boeing. In the past few years, Boeing has had to reproduce all sorts of data from the 80s and 90s to prove that the B787 does not incorperate certin technologies contracted to Boeing IDS.

If defense contracts were an effective subsidy, the surviving US large commercial jet manufacturer should have been someone other than Boeing because they certainly weren't the largest US defense contractor who had a large commercial aircraft business.

Big version: Width: 719 Height: 533 File size: 66kb


MD had significantly greater military revenue than Boeing pre-merger. It didn't help them one bit.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3509 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
MD had significantly greater military revenue than Boeing pre-merger.

This is the primary reason Boeing acquired MD in 1997.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

Thanks guys, quite enlightening.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Quoting Irobertson (Thread starter):
How much extra money do you think Boeing has made over Airbus from all those B-52s, not to mention the 707 conversions, etc etc that its used to its advantage? This sounds like a flaky question the way I've written it, but it Airbus doesn't really have that history of massive amounts of bombers or anything, yet somehow, they're head to head in the civil world. Does anyone think the military production has put Boeing at some sort of advantage over Airbus? Or does it matter any more?

One thing you should not forget, Airbus as a company does not exist for a long time. Before Airbus consisted of the largest aircraft manufactureres of France, Germany, Great Britain, Spain and Belgium....each having a own individual history of producing civil and military aircraft.
Boeing was a single company for 100 years now, therefore their history and legacy is more obvious than one of Airbus.
For example the knowledge the Airbus designers gained from developing the A300 came from such planes like the Caravelle, the VFW 614, Bac 1-11 etc.
MBB; VFW and other German companies that are now part of EADS and Airbus also have a huge military history before Airbus�s first flight.
Beginning with the production of license-build Starfighters for the German Air Force till developing own super sonic VTOL jets like the EWR VJ 101 X1 or the VAK 191 (only prototypes of course)..............



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineRigo From Australia, joined Sep 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3886 times:

Technically speaking Airbus has been so far a purely civilian aircraft maker. The EADS' military activities are separate entities which do not belong to airbus. AFAIK the hypothetical A330 tanker and the yet-to-be-flown A400M will be Airbus' first military products.

Regards


User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

Quoting Rigo (Reply 6):
AFAIK the hypothetical A330 tanker and the yet-to-be-flown A400M will be Airbus' first military products.

Not really. Airbus will remain a civil airliner manufacturer with a military subsidiary for the A400M.
http://www.airbusmilitary.com/
The A330 tanker, and the previous A310 military conversions, are handle by EADS military division, not by Airbus.
http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/800/...F00000000400004/1/43/31427431.html
Historically, due to the difficulties encountered by the A400M partners to steer the project, they agreed to call on Airbus for the management, hence the Airbus Military company.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2827 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

It's also important to note that Boeing is (and has been for the last 40 years) under the draconian terms of ITAR for limiting how military technology is incorporated into the civilian projects. ITAR is quite strict, and complience with it is really really nasty. In that sense Airbus has a much greater advantage because knowledge from the A400M can easily be incorporated into the projects. Technology from the stealth bomber and the JSF can not be incorporated into Boeing products.

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