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United In NYC  
User currently offlineUAL#1fan From United States of America, joined May 2001, 88 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

What happened to these guys here? Of course, UA never had the dominance at a New York area airport that Continental enjoys at EWR, but seriously, it looks like UA has really shrunk here. They only offer one daily LHR flight from JFK against multiple (I don't know how much exactly) flights from American. You would think that an airline with access to Bermuda II would at least command a larger share of the market.

What are some of United's long-term plans in New York, or trans-Atlantic for that matter?


United Air Lines -Mainliners Coast to Coast
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
What are some of United's long-term plans in New York, or trans-Atlantic for that matter?

To hope people will like connecting through Dulles, to be honest Im really suprised UAL has held on to JFK-LHR and even JFK-NRT which NWA gave up.

UAL is a West Coast/ Midwest Carrier, unless they merge with someone like CO they will never be able to really position themselves as a player in the East Coast/ Northeast market/ Mid-Atlantic Market.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30884 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3758 times:
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UA serves the premium part of the NYC market, which is why they only offer three-class, non-stop mainline service to LAX, SFO, LHR and NRT (with UAX to IAD).

As to why UA doesn't have a heavier presence in JFK, their Star Partners already serve the market quite well.


User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

United has held onto JFK-LHR with their one daily flight to provide the Star Alliance presence in this market. They feel no need, however, to compete against the likes of BA, AA, and VS (out of JFK).

There has been talk of shifting the NRT flight to IAD (leaving JFK-NRT for ANA) as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quote:
Im really suprised UAL has held on to JFK-LHR

Remember that UA can not sell that route - under the ludicrous Bermuda II, only two airlines from the U.S. can serve LHR. That means no other American carrier (other than AA) can fly there, and if United wants to sell that privilege, it's all or nothing.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9595 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
They only offer one daily LHR flight from JFK against multiple (I don't know how much exactly) flights from American. You would think that an airline with access to Bermuda II would at least command a larger share of the market.

Part of it definitely is for pride. UA just can't compete with three other airlines on the route. BA and AA have so much capacity on the route, that UA would have to offer dirt cheap fares to hold on to the market. 1 flight a day is enough since frequency isn't that huge on long haul flights like that. UA can still please some people.

I would guess that UA earns way more from flying IAD-LHR where it dominates. UA use to serve LHR from more destinations, but routes like BOS-LHR and SEA-LHR did not work out. UA focuses on its hubs for travel to Europe. UA does benefit from having a partner in LHR with a big presence, but most connecting traffic goes via FRA.

New York is a huge city, but there is so much competition. DL, AA and CO all fight hard for the international traffic. UA could fly routes for glory and prestige, but it isn't an airline that really can dominate New York. IAD is their east coast city. Sure it is no where near the size of a market, but UA pretty much has the international market out of IAD to itself. As previously said, United dominates in the Midwest and West Coast. It isn't a huge airline in the east. They tried to fix that by attempting to merge with US Airways, but that didn't work so they only code share. But an airline doesn't need to every route everywhere in order to be successful.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
You would think that an airline with access to Bermuda II would at least command a larger share of the market.

Unfortunately if they did command a larger share of the Heathrow to JFK market it would be at the expense of its LAX, SFO, IAD, and ORD-LHR frequencies.

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
What are some of United's long-term plans in New York, or trans-Atlantic for that matter?

New York is going to remain a premium "niche" market reliant on almost total O/D. It is the one thing that makes its New York operation stand out from other airlines. Almost all fo the United routes from New York City are to either domestic business centres, or World commerce centres.


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 3):
as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

That's a really interesting idea (IMO). A P.S. 757 to LHR would seem to be a really good move, if UA wasn't making money on the current 777. Having flown on P.S., I can definitely say that I would pay extra to fly it to LHR vs. say, BA, VS, or AA coach. Right now, there's not really a reason to select UA Economy (or UA Biz, or UA First).


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9595 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 7):
A P.S. 757 to LHR would seem to be a really good move, if UA wasn't making money on the current 777. Having flown on P.S., I can definitely say that I would pay extra to fly it to LHR vs. say, BA, VS, or AA coach.

In coach yes P.S. is good since it offers more legroom, but I am not so sure about business or first class. The First class product on P.S. is a lie flat seat which is comparable to other airline's business classes. I don't think it would see so well. UA would have to discount its product.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinePetmbro From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Did UA ever have a large presence at JFK over the years? Based on this 1985 route map, UA circled JFK, indicating it was a hub. I flew into JFK two weeks ago from IAH and I noticed from Airtrain that there was only one UA 763 and I think a 772 but I'm not 100% since I really didn't get a good look at it. Obviously IAD would stop this but would UA ever consider using JFK for flights to other European cities such as CDG and FRA?
http://www.airchive.com/Timetables%20and%20Maps/UA%20Compressed/UAmap8510.jpg



"don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!" - Judge Judy
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):

UAL is a West Coast/ Midwest Carrier, unless they merge with someone like CO they will never be able to really position themselves as a player in the East Coast/ Northeast market/ Mid-Atlantic Market.

What if they merged with DL? I'd think DL would be UAs best choice at the moment.


User currently offlinePetmbro From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 10):

What if they merged with DL? I'd think DL would be UAs best choice at the moment.

Although that would give UA a huge east coast operation it would also give them a trip back to bankruptcy.



"don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!" - Judge Judy
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 10):
What if they merged with DL? I'd think DL would be UAs best choice at the moment.

I don't see how merging two disfunctional airlines would create a functional airline, UAL would be right back to bankruptcy if they merged with DL.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3426 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
I would guess that UA earns way more from flying IAD-LHR where it dominates. UA use to serve LHR from more destinations, but routes like BOS-LHR and SEA-LHR did not work out. UA focuses on its hubs for travel to Europe. UA does benefit from having a partner in LHR with a big presence, but most connecting traffic goes via FRA.

I think the problem with BOS is the fact that there is already a ton of competition on the LHR route, with 3 carriers offering daily non-stop service depending completely on O/D traffic, UA just couldn't really make any serious penetration.

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 3):
There has been talk of shifting the NRT flight to IAD (leaving JFK-NRT for ANA) as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

Could IAD sustain 2 daily non-stop 777 flights to NRT? If this did happen, would NH increase flights out of JFK?


User currently offlineFL370 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3392 times:

"that there was only one UA 763 and I think a 772 but I'm not 100%"
PETMBRO

UA only flies 757 P.S from SFO/LAX
international 777 to NRT/LHR
and the crj-200 from IAD

they havent flown the 767 to JFK/LGA in a while. so ya it was a 772 u saw.

i think UA looks fine in JFK, they have around 20-25 flights to JFK mainline.
and a lot more to LGA, they could possibly add more flgihts to JFK and cut LGA. just my idea.


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
In coach yes P.S. is good since it offers more legroom, but I am not so sure about business or first class.

United Airlines offer its P.S. product which at current only serves JFK-SFO/LAX. It has been rumoured for over a year now that United would drop one of its IAD-LHR frequencies for a twice daily P.S. operation from JFK-LHR. Now also take into consideration that will only happen if JFK loses the NRT flight which is highly unlikely at current do to the contracts that United Airlines holds on its JFK-NRT operation. Of additional interest is that in the case that DEN picks up the NRT flight, United will move forward and forego any financial loss that may stem from the loss of the JFK operation. The only reason JFK is a 777 to Heathrow is the combination from what was multiple daily 767-300 service at one time.


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
UAL is a West Coast/ Midwest Carrier, unless they merge with someone like CO they will never be able to really position themselves as a player in the East Coast/ Northeast market/ Mid-Atlantic Market.

IAD has done fairly well for them and they have been building it up to serve more cities than ever before in the last few years, but the terminal needs remodeled. I think UA can do very well in Washington if they get the improvements the terminals need.

Quoting Petmbro (Reply 9):
Did UA ever have a large presence at JFK over the years? Based on this 1985 route map, UA circled JFK, indicating it was a hub. I flew into JFK two weeks ago from IAH and I noticed from Airtrain that there was only one UA 763 and I think a 772 but I'm not 100% since I really didn't get a good look at it. Obviously IAD would stop this but would UA ever consider using JFK for flights to other European cities such as CDG and FRA?

Not really. In fact, I think JFK was merely a line station most of the time. UA has always flown Los Angeles-New York and San Francisco-New York nonstop with jets. In 1985, New York was NOT a hub for UA, just a city with multiple airports served. I have all the timetables for UA in 1985, trust me NYC was NOT a hub at that time. ORD and DEN were the two largest stations, heck, IAD is a shadow of its current self, with many of the same cities as JFK, including LAX, SFO, ORD, and DEN.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Believe it or not, in the early 1960's, UA was the largest carrier at EWR. For a while in 1963-64, prior to the introduction of the 727-22, UA pulled all operations from LGA. Before the end of deregulation, UA flew from the three NY airports nonstop to ABE, CLE, YNG, CAK, TOL, PIT, ORH, PHF, ATL, MSY, BHM, TYS, DTW/YIP, MBS, GRR, FWA, ORD/MDW, DSM, MKC/MCI, OMA, DEN, MKE, SLC, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, HNL, BUF, ROC, as well as occasional scheduled flights to BOS, DCA, BAL, and PHL.

User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3433 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Actually, JFK was a MAJOR UA station until the late 90s:

Widebody service to LAX and SFO
SEA
BOS (mainline)
SJU (weekends only)
IAD (Express)
NRT
HKG
LHR
Rio/Sao Paulo
MIA

and announced service to CDG . . . that never started.

Also a brand new Terminal 5 that was announced in an agreement with TWA and the Port Authority.

The terminal was never built and United is a shell of their former self at JFK.

PJ


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 17):
Believe it or not, in the early 1960's, UA was the largest carrier at EWR. For a while in 1963-64, prior to the introduction of the 727-22, UA pulled all operations from LGA. Before the end of deregulation, UA flew from the three NY airports nonstop to ABE, CLE, YNG, CAK, TOL, PIT, ORH, PHF, ATL, MSY, BHM, TYS, DTW/YIP, MBS, GRR, FWA, ORD/MDW, DSM, MKC/MCI, OMA, DEN, MKE, SLC, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, HNL, BUF, ROC, as well as occasional scheduled flights to BOS, DCA, BAL, and PHL.

I believe you, but my research/interest lies in post-deregulation routes/schedules. I'd love to have a few schedules for major carriers like DL, AA, UA, TW, and NW in the '60s and '70s, though, just to get a feel for what and where they flew.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3116 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 18):
Actually, JFK was a MAJOR UA station until the late 90s:

Widebody service to LAX and SFO
SEA
BOS (mainline)
SJU (weekends only)
IAD (Express)
NRT
HKG
LHR
Rio/Sao Paulo
MIA

HKG was a very short lived response to CO's EWR-HKG flight, UAL's JFK-HKG did not last a year. And your missing a couple others like JFK-Buesnos Aires, Montevideo, JFK-Caracas, Port Of Spain.

UAL was flying in the late '90s EWR-BOS, EWR-SEA and EWR-SAN. I don't remember them flying mainline to BOS from JFK but they were flying mainline from EWR to BOS, SEA, SAN which brought CO's response of adding ORD-SAN, ORD-BOS, ORD-SEA all nonstop.

In the late '90s UAL was the second largest Carrier at EWR with nonstops to:

EWR-
ORD, DEN, IAD, SEA, BOS, SAN, SFO, LAX, NRT, LHR, MIA, MCO ( I think Im forgeting one or two others).

[Edited 2006-05-02 04:35:36]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
UAL was flying in the late '90s EWR-BOS, EWR-SEA and EWR-SAN. I don't remember them flying mainline to BOS from JFK but they were flying mainline from EWR to BOS, SEA, SAN which brought CO's response of adding ORD-SAN, ORD-BOS, ORD-SEA all nonstop.

They did fly JFK-BOS on mainline, from at least 1999 until 2001. It was pulled after 9/11, I believe.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2962 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
EWR-
ORD, DEN, IAD, SEA, BOS, SAN, SFO, LAX, NRT, LHR, MIA, MCO ( I think Im forgeting one or two others).

God I miss those days. I sometimes walk by the UA section and see the empty ticket counters and look at the departure board only to see nonstops to DEN, IAD, ORD, SFO, and LAX   . I remember back as late as 2000 there were 6 nonstops to SFO on 777s and 763s. And they used to serve HNL nonstop too! UGH! Sometimes I wish CO never got so big at EWR.

Tommy in EWR/LAX.

[Edited 2006-05-02 07:33:09]


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 3):
There has been talk of shifting the NRT flight to IAD (leaving JFK-NRT for ANA) as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

I would be surprised with this move, UA make money on the front end of the plane on the LHR-JFK routes hence why its still there. To move to a PS service in my mind would reduce capacity further and eat into yields.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 13):
I think the problem with BOS is the fact that there is already a ton of competition on the LHR route, with 3 carriers offering daily non-stop service depending completely on O/D traffic, UA just couldn't really make any serious penetration.

One of the reasond that UA stuck with LHR-BOS for as slong as they did was primarily because of cargo, on which they were making some money. Its a shame, I would love to see that route back again but it just wont happen.


User currently offlineSparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

New York is an important city that deserves a heavier UA presence. I know the flag-carrier days of Pan Am are gone, but I never in my wildest thought that UA would retrench back from JFK after acquiring PA's LHR hub.

I flew UA from JFK to NRT last December hoping to relive some of the PA glory when they launched nonstop 747SP service on the same route in 1976, but I was disappointed to see that it was a B777 flight instead of a 747-400.

How I wish PA Int'l was back at JFK at Worldport!  cry 

SparkingWave ~~~



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
25 Christao17 : It would be nice to see more of UA in the Big Apple (and a bunch of other places, too!), but they've got to go where they feel they can make money.
26 Airbazar : Correct me if I'm wrong here but if I remember correctly UA did not drop BOS and SEA because they were not working out but rather because they needed
27 FLY777UAL : The amount that they make is negligible. The route is there for Star presence. In addition, with the DOC alone, UA can operate almost exactly two 757
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