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Northwest Buying 777s?  
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15212 times:

Interesting little blog I read....personally, it would be interesting to see NW get
some 777's, but I would think they would go for more A330's first....that being said, the transition from the 777 to 787 would be easy given the commonality between them....

by the way, don't flame the messenger.. flamed 

fair use excerpt:

"Word from Paris is Craig Saddler (finance director of the 787 program) says Northwest has "committed" to the 777. In 2001 Northwest found the 777 too much airplane compared with the 330 for trans-Atlantic trips. Regarding the Pacific market, the 777 (P&W powered) did not have the legs for its routes. ("The 777-200's range, evaluated with Northwest rules and interiors, is approximately 1,100 miles less than advertised.")"

rest of the blog can be found at...

http://iagblog.blogspot.com/


"Up the Irons!"
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1246 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15196 times:

I think it would be great to see a 777 in NW colors. I would really like to see some boeing widebody metal in their fleet. Here's hoping they are actually "committed".


Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15169 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 1):
would really like to see some boeing widebody metal in their fleet.

What do you call their fleet of 744's?


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15169 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 1):
I think it would be great to see a 777 in NW colors. I would really like to see some boeing widebody metal in their fleet. Here's hoping they are actually "committed".

we do see the "Boeing" DC-10, and 747-200 in NW colours...but the 777 would certainly be a coup.......



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15169 times:
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News to me, but i've been away from work for a month. If we are, none of the pilots have heard anything, and there is nothing about it on the PFAA, or NWAPLA webpages. No buzz. I don't believe it. If NW was allow to wet-lease aircraft types, they probably would. But the pilot's contract, as well as their tentative agreement prohibits it. Doubtful at best.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15139 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
we do see the "Boeing" DC-10, and 747-200 in NW colours...but the 777 would certainly be a coup.......

Ah... what about the 747-400s that they've had for quite a while??  Smile


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User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1246 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15139 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
we do see the "Boeing" DC-10, and 747-200 in NW colours...but the 777 would certainly be a coup.......



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):

What do you call their fleet of 744's?

Sorry, I meant to say "more" boeing widebody metal. Excuse me.



Sic 'em bears
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20637 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15080 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Thread starter):
Regarding the Pacific market, the 777 (P&W powered) did not have the legs for its routes. ("The 777-200's range, evaluated with Northwest rules and interiors, is approximately 1,100 miles less than advertised.")"

Something doesn't smell right about this part. If the range of the 772 is ~8000 miles, which routes does NW fly in the Pacific that are ~7000 miles? Even DTW-NRT is only 6400 miles.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15066 times:

Though they didn't buy the 777, didn't they put a clause in the Pilots contract for 777s back when they did the evaluation for the DC-10 replacement?

Though NW has ordered 18 787s, they hold options for up to a total of 68 planes (I think). At that number they could replace their 747s with frequency, overfly Japan and add more non-stops as well as simplify their fleet.

As for that blog...it seems a little dated. The DC-10s are almost gone aren't they? NW has A332s for the West Coast-Asia/Beach and Japan-Beach markets and A333s for Europe. NW is still taking delivery of their A330s even in BK.

NWA will take delivery of their 787-8s in 2008. Would having 777s in the fleet for two years be that beneficial for NW? Maybe if it were a long-term solution for increasing profit, reducing costs and adding new options then maybe NW will actually move on this. But otherwise...I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Edited 2006-05-02 04:58:13]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15066 times:

Quoting Star_world (Reply 5):
Ah... what about the 747-400s that they've had for quite a while??

oh yah..that too... Smile

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Something doesn't smell right about this part. If the range of the 772 is ~8000 miles, which routes does NW fly in the Pacific that are ~7000 miles? Even DTW-NRT is only 6400 miles.

I was a bit suspicious of that too....but hey...as I said, don't flame the messenger....I was only try to share something I read....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14946 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Something doesn't smell right about this part.

The whole blog doesn't smell right.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
didn't they put a clause in the Pilots contract for 777s?

I believe it does, but it also included the 737 in the 1989 contract which was followed by the strike-plague 1998 year of ops.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
Would having 777s in the fleet for two years be that beneficial for NW?

It would've been beneficial from the very beginning, but the company was cheap(masking it as not being compatible with the fleet or our operation) and went for the A330, because Airbus Industrie gave the aircraft to us for a song.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
I would be hoping for the 773ER as a replacement for the 747s or 772ERs on some of the routes were a 744 is overkill like DTW-NGO.

I would hope so too. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Out options on the 787's do allow for us to use them by other aircraft than the 787. I just think there would be somebetter sources on here rather than blogspot page. But I could be wrong.

These quotes are what strike me as odd:
Fuel costs are making not only the DC9s too much to operate but now also the DC10s.

Northwest is understandably nervous about its mechanic situation. So driving down running costs from lower fuel burn and lower maintenance costs might be just the thing to tip the balance.


It's no revelation that DC10 and DC9's are expensive to operate, and the mechanic situation is practically over. The company's main concern right now is the pilots and flight attendants TA.

[Edited 2006-05-02 05:37:31]


Made from jets!
User currently offlineSparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14383 times:

NW 777s would be delightful!

But I have to admit the NW A330s are elegant in their own right. They look smart in NW's livery.

However, I'll take a NW 747-400 or 747-200 any day - spaciousness for longhaul flights.

SparkingWave ~~~



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
User currently offlineTwoLz2Rn From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14110 times:

will the 333's ever do trans-pacific flights?

User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14068 times:

Maybe later on, the 777F to replace older 747Fs but right now, passenger 777s for NW is unlikely given their high satisfaction with A330s.

I'm wondering why NW never purchased the 767 to close the gap between its DC-10s and 757s. Every other U.S. major has operated the 767 except NW.  confused 



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offline4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14047 times:

Quoting TwoLz2Rn (Reply 12):
will the 333's ever do trans-pacific flights?

I don't think so. Without researching it in detail, I thought the reason for the 332s was because the 333s don't have the range, even from SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (like I have to ask...).



Nobody served our republic like Republic!
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14024 times:

NW said they would consider the A346 and 773ER to replace the 742s a while back when they ordered the A330s. A lot has changed since then (including the parking of the 742s i believe) but my guess would be the 773ER if any 777 were ordered. However, i'm rather (read incredibly) skeptical of the source.

User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2266 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13955 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

What engines would NW buy for any possible 777 order?

NZ1


User currently offlineNLINK From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13915 times:

NW wants to replace the 747-200F. A couple options mentioned would be ordering the 777-300ER to replace the 747-400 and convert the 747-400 to Freighters. Another option mentioned was getting the 747-8 Freighters or 777 Freighters and keep the 747-400 in pax service.

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12944 times:

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 11):

But I have to admit the NW A330s are elegant in their own right. They look smart in NW's livery.

not elegant in their own right....down right beauties I say!!


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"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26488 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12835 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Something doesn't smell right about this part. If the range of the 772 is ~8000 miles, which routes does NW fly in the Pacific that are ~7000 miles? Even DTW-NRT is only 6400 miles.

PW4090 powered 772ERs are certified 8000 pounds lower than Trent 892/895 or GE90-92/94 models

Quoting TwoLz2Rn (Reply 12):
will the 333's ever do trans-pacific flights?

Not if NW expects to get there.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTwoLz2Rn From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11647 times:

Quote:
Not if NW expects to get there.



could they use them to replace some of the HNL-Japan routes?


User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11391 times:

Interesting discussion considering that their financial condition is not exactly rosy. Just a few weeks ago, there were threads about when they were going to close down altogether.

I do not think we will see any new purchase commitments until they are sure they are going to survive. As mentioned earlier, they have to get their pilots and FA's on board for the survival to have a chance.

Mike


User currently offlineAmy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10821 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
PW4090 powered 772ERs are certified 8000 pounds lower than Trent 892/895 or GE90-92/94 models

That's a bit misleading. The maximum thrust (I presume you're talking about thrust here) depends on the engine model. In rough terms the GE90-90 has 90,000lbs, the -92 has 92,000 and the -94 94,000 etc. NWA would just have to order T7s with PW4098s and they'd have all the range they needed, right?

Or were you talking MTOW? Either way i'm sure a PW4098 would cover it.

[Edited 2006-05-02 18:58:48]


A340-300 - slow, but awesome!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30978 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10777 times:
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At this stage in the game, I would think NW would wait for the 787-10, especially if they are considering the 777-200ER.

Perhaps NW may feel 773ERs could help open new routes too small for 744s but too big for A332s/A333s.


User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10242 times:
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Quoting Amy (Reply 22):
That's a bit misleading. The maximum thrust (I presume you're talking about thrust here) depends on the engine model. In rough terms the GE90-90 has 90,000lbs, the -92 has 92,000 and the -94 94,000 etc. NWA would just have to order T7s with PW4098s and they'd have all the range they needed, right?

Or were you talking MTOW? Either way i'm sure a PW4098 would cover it.

If NW had an indefinite fuel hedge the PW4098 might be a feasible/smart option.

In reality, the PW4098 was a class-A coat hangar abortion.

The 4098 was a few percent off its fuel target... which is a large problem in and of itself. This problem is compounded if one crunches the "carry fuel to carry fuel" numbers (particularly when applied to longer range, higher MTOW routes).



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
25 Burnsie28 : The 777 is in the pilot pay scale table.
26 AndesSMF : With the price of fuel lately, a better survival option might actually be a fuel saving alternative to the current older airplanes in their fleet. Th
27 AirFrnt : Northwest I suspect is studying what happened in the 80s and 90s when the 767 and 777 massivly fragmented the atlantic market. The 787 is likely to do
28 Post contains images FXramper : Spoke with a pilot for NW (MEM based flying 757) whose wife is a ramp agent here in AUS for FX. He said the 777 is on the board as far as a exit plan
29 S12PPL : Didn't NW operate the 333's on the PDX-NRT route for a short period, until they got more 332's from Airbus? I know they started the route with DC-10'
30 F22KA : There is nothing more beautiful than a 777 in NW new colors. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about Airbus. It's like comparing a Cadillac wi
31 Amy : Hmm, yes I heard such things about the 4098. Are there no varients of the PW4000 that would satisfy NWA? Would they be better to go GE or RR? I'd gue
32 MaxQ2351 : NWA ordered what will be the 787-851 with RR Trents (still suprised at that one!!) Since Boeing intends to have cockpit commonality between the 777 a
33 Jetjack74 : We did operate the DC10 initially, but switched to the A332 after 7 months. The 332 has been the only aircraft to operate the PDX-NRT. The 333 operat
34 Post contains images N908AW : What's this I hear about fleet commonolity? That'd add even less sense to Northwest's fleet than they already don't have.
35 PanAm747 : Slightly off topic, but how is NW dealing with the different fleet types in terms of maintenance and commonality? I know the DC-9 is serving them well
36 NLINK : The 330-300 has been a substitute on the PDX-NRT routes less than a handful of times.
37 Post contains images Airliner777 : HAHAHAHA Sorry, couldn't help it. hehe
38 DTWAGENT : It would be great if they did get the 777's. However, they have placed a large order for the A330-200 and 300's. As far as more space and comfort, I w
39 Post contains images American777 : Most of the aircraft types NW operates, are powered by PW engines and probably that will be the obvious engine type NW will select for the Boeing 777
40 DfwRevolution : He's talking MTOW. The highest MTOW a Pratt-powered B772ER is certified is 648,000 lbs. The Ge/RR -200ER with the same engine thrust options are cert
41 Tom_EDDF : I assume you're saying the quality of the Airbus feels as lousy as the quality of a cadillac or any other American domestic brand? Sorry... couldn't
42 ScottB : And Northwest was sitting on 16 outstanding A330 orders which had been made back in 1989 (yes, 1989) and which had been deferred in March 1996 to 200
43 MarkC : 4098's are not an option for anyone. I think only 12 were ever made. Only 3 are in revenue service now....on a single KAL plane with a spare. Once tho
44 Jetjack74 : Actually, it was the 15-20 A340's that were ordered in 1989, that were deferred until 1994, when changed those orders to additional A320's. An order
45 Post contains images Behramjee : I would imagine that NW needs the extra capacity of the B 744 for their busy and high demand transpacific nonstop flights from DTW and SEA respectivel
46 Flywithjohn : Well I don't see an reason for ordering 767 777 and 787 at the same time. and right now considering there money problems there not going to be orderin
47 Stitch : The debt service and payments on brand-new widebodies and narrowbodies would probably exceed the savings in fuel and maintenance for a good period of
48 Revelation : Interesting. What is KAL using to replace the 4098's?
49 Dhefty : Jetjack74, can you explain the conflict between Northwest's annual report stating that they have 32 A330 orders, whereas the Airbus order book record
50 VC10DC10 : NW 777s? Great, another type. With the 777 NW would be operating and maintaining: 744 742 332 333 D10 777 Terrific. Even worse than right now. Yes, I
51 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : it still looks nice on NW colours...
52 Post contains images VC10DC10 : Sure, it looks fine. (BTW, that's the old livery, which should be gone in 3 or 4 years -- nothing's been delivered in it since late 2002.) But come on
53 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : I'll agree with you there...... by the way, I've been fortunate to fly on a VC10 back in the 1970's...BOAC LHR to Rawalpindi/ISB....
54 MaxQ2351 : Ugh, is NWA changing their livery again?? Or is the above picture just a botched attempt at reproducing their current one?!?! -Max
55 Jacobin777 : i took it from cardatabase.net......
56 KC135TopBoom : The NW DC-10s were the DC-10-40 model, it had P&W JT-9Ds
57 N1120A : I was talking about MTOW, and the PW4098 has its own issues. Basically, the PW4090 CAN be throttled up to 92,000 pounds but is not certified to do so
58 MarkC : They get 4090's, and I don't mean 4090D's, which would be derated 4098's.
59 AA777223 : I think its interesting with United being one of the largest, and first operator of the triple 7 that they chose the Pratt and Whitneys. After all, t
60 MarkC : United was one of the early operators. At the time, the GE90 was new and unproven (not in revenue service). United had boatloads of 4000's on 767's an
61 Jetjack74 : Currently, NW has ordered 32 A330 aircraft total. We exercised options on 8 more aircraft on the original order for 24 airframes in April of last yea
62 Gunsontheroof : To the best of my knowledge, NW has never ran scheduled service from SEA to anywhere on the 744. We used to see lots of 742s (to KIX, HKG, NRT...), b
63 N1120A : PW4090s United always orders Pratt if available, to a fault. The only non-Pratt related engine in their fleet is the CFM56 on their 737s, simply beca
64 Jetjack74 : A 744 has been subbed on the NRT-SEA a few times. When I was based there, it was a 742 scheduled, but we saw a 400 from time to time. Quite funny too
65 AA777223 : Thanks 1120A! I knew that their 772As were pratt powered and it makes sense on them, however, i thought there might have been a more compelling reaso
66 Dhefty : Jetjack74 , thank you, but you did not attempt to answer my question.[Edited 2006-05-04 08:32:22]
67 N1120A : No, they stuck with commonality and tradition. They may also have had existing orders for Pratt engines that they converted to the 772ER. Further, at
68 VC10DC10 : Meaning, I suppose, that they were so excited they didn't know what to do? By the way, are you referring to F/As or gate agents or what?
69 The777Man : LA has never ordered any 777s. They were RUMORED to have been interested in 777s and that they were trying to a SQ-like deal where they would trade i
70 AA777223 : I imagine in tha A market the GE 90 did seem to heavy. I suppose a 135 inch fan for 76,000 lbs of thrust did seem overkill, but surely airlines had t
71 MarkC : As long as you agree with the commonality point. And yes, they are closely related, from an overhaul perspective, which is the key. The high compress
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