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F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops  
User currently offlineTWAAF9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 88 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13159 times:

From a public bulletin to employee email this morning:

Communications Bulletin 07-11

May 2, 2006

Frontier Announces New Service Between Los Angeles and San Francisco

Later this morning in two unique press conferences to be held in both Los Angeles and San Francisco, we will announce new, non-stop service between San Francisco International Airport (SFO) and Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) beginning on June 29, 2006. This new service will commence with a total of five daily flights between the two cities. Obviously, this is very exciting news for all of us at Frontier, but undoubtedly you will have some questions about the announcement, so we had Frontier President and CEO Jeff Potter answer some of the bigger questions for you in advance in the Q & A below.

Why are we flying point-to-point? Don’t we run a hub and spoke operation?

Yes, we do run a hub and spoke operation, meaning our flights connect out of our hub in Denver. This announcement does not mean that we are moving away from that model, only that we saw a great opportunity to grow outside of Denver as well as mitigate some of the current constraints at DIA. Know that the majority of our growth will continue to happen in Denver. We also saw the need to bring the low fares and outstanding customer service that we are known for to the underserved route, as we will be the only low cost carrier (LCC) to serve the popular non-stop route between LAX and SFO.

Why these two markets?

As stated in the press release, John Happ, Frontier’s Senior Vice President of Marketing and Planning commented, “This is a great day for Frontier and for California as we provide a better and more cost-effective travel option to connect Southern and Northern California. We feel strongly that the San Francisco market is underserved for high-value, low fare service and there is clearly a strong business and leisure connection between these two cities. We are eager to begin service so that we can help bring low fares back to their proper Bay Area home: San Francisco International Airport.”

In addition, the new service complements our already existing flights — seven daily flights between Los Angeles and Denver, and five daily flights between San Francisco and Denver. As stated in today’s press release, “This new service from Frontier between SFO and LAX make summer travel in California even more enticing," said San Francisco International Airport Director, John L. Martin. "Arriving or departing from SFO is an authentic San Francisco experience, from the fresh, local food and beverage options such as Perry's to on-site BART service that bring travelers downtown in less than 30 minutes. SFO's full range of services and amenities, combined with Frontier's great customer service and low fares, make for a great new option in travel between SFO and LAX.”

Is this like when we launched our LAX expansion/focus city?

No, it is not. I want to be very clear that this is completely different than the LAX expansion we tried several years ago. This is a very targeted, highly established and high traffic route with no current LCC service. So, we have the opportunity to come in with lower fares (the lowest), fly a better product (the best!), show passengers what the best customer service in the industry feels like and offer an alternative in flying out of SFO instead of Oakland, which is the only low fare choice many passengers have at this time.

Will we be hiring more people?

Yes, with the additional service, we will be hiring 40 new employees in Los Angeles for a total of 70 employees, and will utilize three common-use gates in Terminal 3. In San Francisco, we will hire over 40 new employees for positions that we previously outsourced, and the new flights will coincide with our move to our new gates, 41 and 43. We also intend to expand ticket counter space at both airports to between six and eight positions, including four kiosk or express check-in units.

What kind of planes will fly that route and where will they come from?

We will fly our mainline A318s and A319s on the route. Some will come from new planes we get from Airbus and some from changes in schedules and frequencies.

Are we looking at any other point-to-point options?

Not at this time, but we will keep you posted.

How are we letting people know about the new service?

We have a highly targeted advertising and media campaign that will start this week, both in California and here in Denver, so hopefully, you will all see and hear more about it in the paper or on TV. Of course there will be signage throughout both LAX and SFO, and in addition we have come up with some exciting incentives for passengers to try out the new route including:

· Introductory fares starting at $59 each way

· Free DIRECTV for a limited time on this route

· Double EarlyReturns miles for a limited time

Well, I know you are probably going to have more questions and we will do our best to keep you informed and updated. I hope that each and every one of you is excited and on board as we continue our growth. Lastly, the new schedules between LAX and SFO are as follows:

Los Angeles-San Francisco
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
7:15 a.m.
8:35 a.m.

8:15 a.m.
9:35 a.m.

12:30 p.m.
1:59 p.m.

4:50 p.m.
6:10 p.m.

9:00 p.m.
10:20 p.m.

San Francisco-Los Angeles

Flight Number

6:10 a.m.
7:30 a.m.

10:20 a.m.
11:40 a.m.

2:35 p.m.
3:55 p.m.

6:55 p.m.
8:15 p.m.

8:25 p.m.
9:45 p.m.

All times given in local arrival or departure city times.

Ahh, the power of SABRE...
149 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13155 times:

LA-Bay Area, that is gonna be hard for F9. Doubt either UA, AA, WN or AS will react too kindly to another entrant in this market.

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13108 times:

Very, very surprised by this...and not in a good way.

I'm dissapointed to say the least. F9 needs to start up some non-DEN routes, but this is not what I had in mind. They are going to get killed in this market.

User currently offlineFalcon flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13108 times:

Interesting, especially after their experience with the LAX off hub trips from a few years ago. The planners must see something that we don't.

My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
User currently offlineInTheSky74 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13092 times:

Free DirecTV for a limited time?

How much do they normally charge for it?


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13092 times:

Quoting TWAAF9 (Thread starter):
show passengers what the best customer service in the industry feels like

You have to love the classic internal propaganda. Every airline says this stuff, and from my experience, all of the LCC's offer excellent service.

User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13041 times:

I'm sure I'll give them a shot, but I certainly would have preferred BUR-SFO

User currently offlineNZblue From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 640 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13041 times:

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 4):
How much do they normally charge for it?

Normally, DirecTV service on Frontier is offered for a $5 charge.


It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 24553 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13018 times:

I'm not real familiar with Southern California, so this is an ignorant question, but I will ask anyway. SFO is clearly a good choice for targeting O&D pax in the bay area, between its location and the relative ease of getting there on BART or by car. Can the same be said for LAX and Southern California? Would there be a better L.A. area airport for this service? One poster said he would have preferred BUR... would that be a better choice for something like this which is targeting exclusively O&D?

I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13018 times:

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 3):
The planners must see something that we don't.

I wouldn't speak too highly about most of the people working at the F9 market planning/revenue management department . Most aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. A couple of them are qualified, but several have been hired based on their knowing someone at the office, not based on their merit. Unfortunately I witnessed this first hand.

Back to the topic at hand, this seems like a drastic move (starting LAX-SFO) with no clear motive....except trying to compete with UA and WN. No matter how good the service is, five flights per day cannot compete with the virtual shuttle service that UA and WN offer between the two cities (and yes, OAK is not SFO, but it is convenient for many).

I hope F9 enjoys being in the red because if they keep on doing things like this, they'll be there for awhile.

Just my opinion.

[Edited 2006-05-02 18:16:15]

[Edited 2006-05-02 18:16:49]

User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12922 times:

"Constrained DEN" "Underserved route"

Flighttime they are burning there means less potential for fighting LUV at DEN and begs the question of are they giving up at DEN because of LUV and looking elsewhere?

Too many carriers have proved...and are still proving...that SFO is horrible for dependable flying. F9 has an ontime machine with DEN and needs to go to similar airports or risk throwing the DEN hub into disarray with continually late trips dragging in from the west. You know at least some of these trips will be round robins..ie DEN SFO LAX DEN and vice versa which means SFO weather will nail both the SFO and the LAX arrivals back into DEN.

User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12903 times:

I'm surprised an LCC didn't move in on this a long time ago. LAX-SFO has got to be one of the last markets in the U.S. offered only by UA and AA (except for the one AS repositioning flight). It also seems this has been the longest LAX-SFO has ever gone without an LCC in it.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 7516 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12825 times:

Well, I suppose I will go against the conventional wisdom here and say that it will be interesting to see how this new service pans out for Frontier. As far as I can tell, the fares look to be comparable to what WN is charging between OAK/SJC and LAX/BUR/SNA/ONT. Part of the story, of course, will be how AA and UA respond in the market, as well as how much traffic shifts from LAX-OAK (and less so LAX-SJC) to LAX-SFO as a result. I don't see much traffic shifting otherwise, given that a BUR-OAK passenger would probably be flying LAX-OAK if they preferred LAX as their origin. The BUR/SNA/ONT-SFO markets are relatively small anyway.

Five daily flights is probably the bare minimum F9 needs to be remotely competitive in this market, and they have the morning and afternoon business peaks reasonably covered. If United responds aggressively, though, their huge schedule advantage will make life difficult for Frontier. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now; at some point, Frontier does need to build successful routes which don't touch DEN if they intend to continue to grow.

User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5636 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12757 times:

Actually this does come as a shock. I will say this though... The market is hot. It will require alot of marketing though. SFO and LAX are going to need billboards and commercials to raise awareness of the markets.

The only downside is...... Constant delays due to weather and flow control.

I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12757 times:

I can't understand why it would take 40 additional employees at each station for 5 additional flights each way. The point to point idea between existing stations is a good idea. The facilities and people are better utilized and the cost of operating should be less compared to opening a new station. I think they will do well on this route traffic wise. Hopefully they can keep the costs down.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 19420 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12695 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 13):
It will require alot of marketing though.

...if only F9 did non-DEN centered marketing  Yeah sure

E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIowaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12695 times:

I'll give it six months tops, heck WN has 22 daily flights from LAX-OAK alone.

User currently offlineWhiteBirdFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12676 times:

As a frequent flyer between the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles, I almost always choose WN from OAK to BUR. I'd rather fly out of SFO sometimes because I could get to SFO via BART and not deal with parking $$$$ which often cost more than the airfare on WN. However, I rarely use SFO-LAX primarily because in my experience UA's intra-California service is horrible compared with WN.

However, if F9 can get a good service going, they'd have a lot of my business. To be sure, SFO is heck on schedules due to unpredictable weather delays apparently unique to this part of the globe, but UA has also never put much "fun" into their SFO-LAX service, either. Due to their position at SFO, UA has let their LAX service slide to bare minimums. Give pax a good alternative to UA and, even with delays that everyone in the SF area is used to already, I think F9 will easily fill their planes. That's a good start for something.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 29181 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12676 times:

While LAX-SFO has considerable O&D demand and relatively high yields, United certainly will not let this move by Frontier go unnoticed.

In addition Frontier must also face fierce competition from other established corridor carriers such as Southwest, Alaska and American, plus even Jetblue now doing business between LGB and OAK.

Its nice to see Frontier think outside the box, however they certainly managed to pick one competitive market to try. Also I hope for Frontiers sake they manage to get their name out and advertise significantly more than when they previously had their LAX focus city if they expect people to associate them with the intra-state flights.

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFLY2LIM From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1204 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12643 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
Doubt either UA, AA, WN or AS will react too kindly to another entrant in this market.

Not sure many of you recall that WN used to fly to SFO but pulled out.

Also, it's a little misleading to advertise LAX-SFO "non stops" considering the flight is a little over one hour. Where are they going to stop, Monterey?

Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12620 times:

wow this will give me the chance to fly on a A318 on a usually very over priced route.


User currently offlineBNinMSY From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12600 times:

When is F9 returning to MSY?

User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12588 times:

I do not think that LAX-SFO is necessarily the disaster that some previous posters have made it out to be. Sure they have to fight UA head-to-head, but they have been doing that in DEN all along. AA is also there but probably does not need to protect its turf like UA.

When the fog rolls in, SFO is a disaster, but F9 can keep one pair of planes to go up and down all day on what would be almost entirely an O&D route, to prevent delays from rolling through the system. They are connecting two existing stations, so the startup costs are not nearly as great as adding a new city.

SFO now has a Bart station in the airport for quick trip to the City while OAK passengers have to take the AirBart bus. OAK is also has few gates available and only one commerical runway for the forseeable future. OAK is going to hit the wall on capacity soon.

DEN is in the comic position of having more capacity than any airport on the planet but F9 is running out of space because they do not want to pay to have Terminal A extended and UA is squatting on gates to force them to pay (just as UA had to pay for its massive Terminal B).

User currently offlineMalpensasfo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12588 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
LA-Bay Area, that is gonna be hard for F9

Correction, it will be hard for UA and AA in the SFO-LAX markets, where each command a fortune for a walk up.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 19):
Also, it's a little misleading to advertise LAX-SFO "non stops"

The flights are "nonstop" so there is nothing misleading!

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
While LAX-SFO has considerable O&D demand and relatively high yields, United certainly will not let this move by Frontier go unnoticed

There is a very good chance that UAL will rotate the 777 or 744 into 3 daily rotations on the SFO-LAX flights, in the aircrafts downtimes. Some people may say that does not make sense, and others are seriously thinking it is a brilliant idea. Instead of 3 737 or A320 flights there would be a single 777 or 744 in its place. Take that ratio at peak periods - 7a, 1p, 6p in which they may operate the widebodies and in the other off peak hours such as 6a, 9a, 10a, 2p, 3, 4p, 7p, 8p, 9p, 10p and operate the A320-A319.

User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12576 times:

Quoting WhiteBirdFlyer (Reply 17):

Your entire post is exactly what F9's wants to hear. The gamble is - can they move OAK people on to their planes that really want to fly to/from SFO? Marketing will be the key, and all they really need to advertise is that they are the only LCC flying between LAX and SFO. Even if UA and AA match, F9 will be a new alternative.

25 Sean-SAN- : Let's not forget that UA has a virtual monopoly on this route, and often charges well over $200 for this 55 minute flight.
26 BigGSFO : Agreed. Remember also the massive amounts of UA and AA loyal fliers in both Norcal and Socal and for the 55 minute flight, the option to go on F9 wou
27 Post contains images WhiteBirdFlyer : I'll have to send their marketing department a bill. Since you put it that way, I think I may see where some of their gamble is coming from, and how
28 Ikramerica : While it is risky, there are reasons that make sense. CA is a "destination" and it is an O&D destination for airlines like F9 and WN. But, like CO, yo
29 Laxintl : Yes, however LAX-SFO is one of UA's top-10 routes in both regards to daily passenger volume and yields. Of all the overlap Denver flying for UA and F
30 Alphascan : ALL of F9's new routes in the past year have performed up to system averages far faster than the one year period the carrier anticipated. Just becaus
31 Iowaman : No it won't, they will most likely price match and dump capacity. UA also have the loyal frequent fliers on both ends, as well as connecting traffic
32 MtnWest1979 : Well, maybe this note is for pax that remember actually stopping in MRY, FAT, SCK, MOD, MCE, etc, many years ago on a trip between NoCal and SoCal. A
33 N1120A : The route is often offered for very good deals Your guess is as good as mine
34 YOWza : I'm really curious how all of this is going to play out. I'm a little surprised at this announcement but I'm sure that there is enough of a market for
35 N1120A : No one runs that, it is only a 15nm trip.
36 Saxdiva : LA Metro rail.
37 N1120A : Don't we wish. You have to take busses at both ends.
38 Post contains images Mariner : I think it is an iunteresting move, that certainly has some risks to it - but heck - why not? And given how much a number of posters cheer "competitio
39 Post contains links NZblue : Just an FYI... F9 just recently (in the past hour or two) added this route to its interactive route map, though it's a bit hard to distinguish on the
40 N1120A : Except that BOS and its 1 flight proved unprofitable, while MSY had good loads, yields and multiple flights. F9 got spooked because of Katrina and no
41 Ikramerica : They also just sent an email to all registered Rapid Rewards customers about it, too.
42 Quickmover : Do they outsource LAX as well?
43 N1120A : I am a Rapid Rewards member and haven't gotten any such thing. Do you mean EarlyReturns?
44 Post contains images Mariner : It proved unprofitable because of 9/11. I used to live in Boston and flew regularly wih Frontier to LAX and/or SFO. They had 2 x daily BOS-DEN, fligh
45 AeroWesty : So what do SFO-LAX passengers want? 1) Frequent service 2) On-time flights 3) Few hassles If you give them low fares too, all the better. If not, they
46 Flashmeister : I'm not totally down on this move, but it worries me. I think Frontier definitely bit off a lot with this, and I hope they can deliver better than the
47 Flyboyaz : Wow best of luck to them. I had always thought HP/US should do that route...maybe someday. I priced a one way fare on F9 LAX-SFO in Amadeus and it's o
48 Travelin man : SFO-SNA would have been a better choice, IMO. Less competition in a very high-fare market. Add to that, both are current F9 stations (unlike BUR). Per
49 AS739X : Quickmover: No, they have their own staff at LAX and contract out to CO at SFO. It will be nice to see them get their own staffing at SFO. Well i have
50 Post contains images MSYtristar : Actually, they aren't, and it has nothing to do with my MSY wishes, as you say. Find someone to give you a tour of Frontier Center One and you'll see
51 MSYtristar : Insular tunnel vision? I like that term. I'll have to add it to my vocabulary. Anyway, do you honestly think that LAX-SFO will be a high revenue perf
52 Post contains images AsstChiefMark : That made me chuckle, because it reminded me of an old North Central radio ad: "Offering daily non-stop service from Minneapolis to Rochester [Minnes
53 Copaair737 : Could this be as a response to WN's start-up in DEN? Bay Area-SoCal traffic is pretty big on WN, and seeing as WN just entered F9's home turf, could F
54 Alphascan : Now I understand. You are an expert on scheduling and rev management because you took a tour of Tower Road. Now that's what I call credibility. And I
55 Mariner : But you've been crying about it. You made a series of extremely critical posts just last week about the subject. So yes, please - let life go on. You
56 FCYTravis : How much will live TV matter on a 50-minute flight?
57 YOWza : Sorry I that was a brain fart. What I meant was, does anyone operate LGB-SFO? YOWza
58 Flyboy7974 : years and years ago, the SFO-LAX run was the most heavily travel corridor in the nation. Airlines like PSA, AirCal, Delta, USairways, UA all at their
59 Mariner : Not much. I doubt many will pay for it - if any - which is why they are giving it for free for the summer. And, since Frontier has the equipment in a
60 FATFlyer : No, just LGB-OAK. With no mainline slots available at LGB the only way someone could start service to SFO would be on an aircraft under 75,000 pounds
61 MaverickM11 : Protect CUN when it had (still has) drastically reduced hotel capacity?
62 YOWza : Thanks FATFlyer, I'm planning a little detour when I come down in June. YOWza
63 Sllevin : If Frontier can manage the weather delays -- and most importantly, avoid a cascading series of delays where issues in the morning blow the entire afte
64 Ikramerica : Yes, sorry. EarlyReturns. I've been a member for a long time, too, but still switched it in my mind. Though it would be smart to send it to all WN FF
65 MSYtristar : Mariner, it's your right to have that viewpoint. I try not to get into arguments on the internet, what's the point? But using the term "crying" is a
66 ScottB : There's a waiting list for slots at SNA, and it's unlikely that F9 would get enough slots at once to offer a competitive service. AQ's SNA-SMF servic
67 Socalatc : I flew F9 from LAX-DEN I was so disapointed on the lack of recline of their seats. It seemed like it started at a 90deg angel, and reclined to a 85de
68 MSYtristar : Don't presume to know what I know. I don't presume to know what you know. Or do you want to play the "who knows more about F9 game"? If so, i'm in!
69 Post contains links Mariner : Gee, I would guess that hotel occupancy and capacity in New Orleans was not exactly boomer when the decision was made. But, things change. Rebuilding
70 AirportGuy1971 : Mariner is not the only one who has read all of what you've posted since you chose to leave F9 to come to that conclusion. He's just the one able to
71 Post contains images MaverickM11 : SNA is one of those slot controlled airports that everyone lines up to get into and once there realizes the fares are absolute sh!t just like every o
72 Iowaman : This summer WN's fares will be $59 each way with Ding being even cheaper, and WN also has the better business schedule: Weekday LAX-OAK: 1695 6:00am
73 King : Here are a few Frontier facts - Load factors are going up - 2001 = 60%, 2002 = 59.9%, 2003 = 71.6%, 2004 = 72.3%, 2005 = 75.2% April 2006 was the busi
74 Post contains images Mariner : But - Frontier fares are $59, too, and I'mn sure they will have sales. So - ? I don't understand your negativity. You were thrilled when Southwest st
75 MarkATL : Instead of spending all this money, F9 should just go buy some lottery tickets. The chance of any kind of return on investment would be much higher th
76 DesertAir : I credit F9 for looking for new routes and to break into the California market. The SFO-LAX route, as many of you have said, has been hotly competitiv
77 Malpensasfo : It happens more often than you think....
78 Alphascan : You wrote that you questioned the qualifications and competency of the planners. I disagreed and pointed out that their track record of picking succe
79 AeroWesty : Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been flying SFO-LAX for a few decades, and have been on just about every model of Boeing and a few others on that route. I don
81 Mymorningsong : Great news! I do LAX-OAK about 10-15x a year on business. Nobody will compete with WN's frequency to OAK and dealing with UA to SFO on such a short fl
82 MSYtristar : It may seem ludicrous to an outsider, but it's not from someone who spent a significant amount of time there. Everything that I have stated is from p
83 AeroWesty : Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not the SFO-LAX market is it now. You won't find many commuters lining up to wait for the amount of time it takes to board a
84 Cactus739 : To people here on a.net its a life or death thing apparently...... I certainly wouldn't pay $5 to watch tv for an hour. *cough* Apparently they didn'
85 Flyboyaz : I'm sure they will match the fares. Most will find F9 is a better airline anyhow. Those animals on the tail make it for me...hehe
86 AeroWesty : On an early morning flight, I'd bet more than a few would pay $5 to watch CNBC for the market open and to watch the business news. That's a long hour
87 Mariner : Um - cough - I think America West started service to Canada (and Mexico) before it adopted the Low Fare Intiative - before it became LCC. And there a
88 Iowaman : I guess $69 isn't the cheapest fare?: I think it's great Frontier is bringing prices down. I'm just worried they are going to have a hard time compet
89 Flyboyaz : Yeah I have that same feeling too...they need to make their presence known and by having the lowest fare they will by coming up first on internet boo
90 King : If not this route, which routes would have made more sense for Frontier? I believe F9 needs to connect some of their dots, and LAX-SFO did surprise wh
91 Post contains links Mariner : From the news release: "Frontier to Fly Five Times a Day Between Los Angeles and San Francisco, Fares Starting at Just $59, Free DirecTV" http://fron
92 Luv2fly : You my friend like always are dead on the money! They served it from IAD when they use to hub there.
93 Cactus739 : Not sure what that has to do with it. America West/US Airways is an LCC now.... they serve Canada now...Frontier does not for 23 more days....... so
94 Post contains links MaverickM11 : Quoting Mariner (Reply 91): LAX-MSP? Frontier had been expecting NW to retaliate on that route. What killed it was the additional retaliation - NW's D
95 Mariner : Then you are maintaining that the CEO lied to the shareholders at the AGM when he explained what happend. Okay. Sure, I believe you instead of the CE
96 MSYtristar : The problem with LAX-SFO, to me, is that the profit margin will be extremely small. F9 may fill those 319's, but at what price? $59 a seat? Some non
97 Frntman : What a lively little post... As a former manager of several F9 stations, there were several questionable decisions which made me scratch my head over
98 JetBluefan1 : I didn't have time to read all posts, so forgive me if this was already brought up, but... Could this be a Northwest-type strike against WN (and UA, f
99 Sllevin : I would be stunned if they sell many seats at low prices. I fly SJC-LAX a lot -- at times weekly -- and it's a very, very, VERY business oriented rou
100 Mariner : It is really easy. America West became an LCC in 2002. They started serving Canada prior to that. America West merged with US Airways, when US Airway
101 MaverickM11 : What exactly did he say? American Airlines claimed they were dropping DFW/LIM because of WN's new DAL/STL and DAL/MCI flights...did you believe that
102 FLY2LIM : THANK YOU MARK! You are the only one who understands that, at about 300-400 miles between the two cities, advertising a "shuttle" flight as non stop
103 QXatFAT : It would be something to think about but WN does fly to OAK from other airports in Southern California. As well as B6 (jetBlue I belive?) flys from L
104 AeroWesty : HP is more than willing to sell you a ticket between SFO and LAX that connects in LAS or PHX, and DL one that connects in SLC for the same price or l
105 F9Animal : Makes you wonder what F9 has up its sleeve? Are they on to something? Virgin USA is trying to get airborne, and WN is stepping in on DEN. Whatever F9
106 FATFlyer : As I've pondered this today it just seems like this is more a strategic decision not one from the route planners. I can't explain it but my gut instin
107 MrSTL : $174 round trip is the cheapest I could find in June for LAX-SFO. I definitely think F9 can make a dent in this market. AA and UA are the price leader
108 StuckInCA : I'd say I won't believe it until a few years after BK. I fly LA area to SF area often. I most often pay the premium for BUR-LAX as they are the most
109 Post contains images FCYTravis : So that means AirTran isn't an LCC either? They have an F-cabin, international service and a multi-aircraft type fleet. "LCC" means one thing - low o
110 Mariner : Exactly. As I stated: Then, because this is a.net, I allowed for variations in interpretation. mariner[Edited 2006-05-03 06:53:53]
111 Post contains images MSYtristar : Just have to jump in here in regards to US. Not a LCC, not even close. How can one achieve low operating cots when flying A319, A320, A333, B733, B734
112 N1120A : Actually, their fleet rationality isn't all that bad. 757/767 pilots, 737 pilots, A32S pilots and A330 pilots.
113 MSYtristar : That's true. Most of those are still pretty fuel efficient as well. Just a few short years ago US was flying 732/33/34, 752, 762, D9S, F100, MD-80 al
114 N1120A : Yeah, and that is why they entered chapter 11 the first time.
115 NZblue : I think one question that should be brought up with regards to Virgin America and their plans to make SFO their first base is this: Although the pres
116 Post contains links LTU932 : According to the original Airbus press release, their first A320s will arrive in 2008, while some A318s will arrive in 2007. Here a short excerpt: Fr
117 UAL777UK : Great news, another bloodbath, cannot understand F9's decision to move into this territory. UA has great dominance on these routes as does WN out of O
118 Post contains images F9Animal : I would not be shocked if this is the thought process. Virgin America is not even off of the ground, and F9 is taking the opportunity to perhaps take
119 Christao17 : Perhaps it is just your choice of words and "misleading" isn't quite the word you are looking for, but there really isn't anything misleading about s
120 Post contains images F9Animal : One other thing since I am always on the conspiracy theories...... What if........ We all speculated on the Delaware deal. What if F9 is going to link
121 Mariner : It is a misunderstanding of the date. It refers to Frontier's Financial Year 2008. Frontier's Financial Year runs from April 1 to March 31st - we are
122 Mariner : Please see above. Frontier is one of the carriers to apply for the vacant LAX-SJD authority. The others are United, Continental Express and Delta. Of
123 LTU932 : Ah OK. So this means that the A318s mentioned will come during calendar year 2006, which for F9 is FY 2007. A bit confusing, but I do know that our c
124 Post contains links Mariner : I think one of the A318's will come in calendar year 2006. Here is the delivery schedule - remember that FY 2007 began on April 1st 2006: http://fron
125 Halls120 : Absolutely. I'm a UA F/F, and as long as UA offers fares that are in the ballpark of Frontier's, there is no incentive for me to switch.
126 Quickmover : Mariner, Wasn't the DEN gate issue supposed to be resolved by now? Seems like I remember an interview with Potter a month or two back where he mention
127 MSYtristar : I personally know of four F9 managers at their HDQ who left to go join Virgin America. Should be interesting to see if some sort of a codeshare/partn
128 F9Animal : Now come on Mariner!!! You know we could never accept it for what it is! That would really make the forums boring.
129 AS739X : MSY: So did she happen to say where F9 plans to get gates at LAX? I'm interested in seeing how they plan to even have a place for the SFO flight RON.
130 Post contains links and images FATFlyer : Yesterday, Frontier filed an addendum to their LAX-SJD application pointing out to the DOT that they were expanding their services in the LAX area wi
131 Stirling : I have a gut feeling, Fresno is going to be popping up on a lot of airline's radar in the months to come. As the airlines butt heads in existing mark
132 MSYtristar : No sir, can't help you with that one, but i'll contact one of my buddies at LAX and see what he says. I'll shoot him an email now. SFO is even more o
133 AS739X : True....Even w/ them moving to terminal C w/ NW-DL-HA there won't be much room. Let me know what he says about LAX. I don't know if F9 has maintance h
134 MaverickM11 : Yeah but the problem is there aren't that many people traveling to/from FAT. Everyone's domestic service to/from FAT seems to be averaging 2/3 or muc
135 Stirling : That very well be true....but like I said, things are a changing. 1. Fuel. As the price for a gallon rises, traveling to LAX to catch a flight makes
136 Mariner : Quickmover: Um - you are way ahead of me. I did not know it was supposed to be resolved "by now". I know that DIA has made a new offer to Frontier, a
137 Luv2fly : You left out the 727 as well.
138 Post contains images Flyinryan99 : I thought this was an interesting thought...they could so something like (very ambitious I know : Dep FAT Depart Arrive Aircraft City 6:30 9:35 A318
139 FATFlyer : FAT has been hit for years with people going to the larger California airports. Various studies peg the number of driveaways at 30 to 50% of the tick
140 SJCRRPAX : Wow that sounds great! I suspect F9 will fill every plane and still lose money! I did a random check on UA cost, and it looks to be typically $100 ea
141 Mariner : SNA is tightly slot controlled - but I'm sure you knew that. Denver is "back east"? Wow. mariner
142 FAT5DEP : LAX-FAT-DEN kind of reminds me of DL's LAX-FAT-SLC back in the early 90's. Of course DL was using a 727. We would send some decent loads down to LAX.
143 FAT5DEP : Why do you think he was talking about Denver? Its a well known fact that Denver is east of California. You must forgive me, I majored in Geography an
144 MaverickM11 : I've heard that from a lot of airports, especially ones that have subsidies for new service. I really don't think there's much of anywhere in the US
145 Stirling : It's due east or back east from where I sit.
146 FATFlyer : But FAT is a bit unique in terms of the number of airports with lower fares within a 3 to 4 hour drive. Fresno's problems with driveaways shows simpl
147 Mariner : Because he is talking about the people who made the decision: - and they are the execs at Frontier, who are based in Denver. You don't need to major
148 AeroWesty : I believe it's obvious he was referring to the tourist not the management of Frontier. "Back east" is not Denver, just because it's east of Californi
149 Gentfromalaska : I wonder if F9 may be tossing around the idea of a seasonal P2P from SFO or LAX to ANC? The cruise ship industry is now sailing from the Bay Area to A
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