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SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900  
User currently offlineOwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 959 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

SAS is studying the possibility to buy the RRJ-Sukhoi's Russian Regional Jet because of its low pricing of 20 milllion US$ per piece. The Embraer 190 and the CRJ900 are also in the race for the SAS account.

SAS is eying on this aircraft as a replacement aircraft for its affiliates Blue1 (Finnland), Widerøe (Norway), Air Baltic (Letland), Estonian Air (Estland) and Spanair (Spain).

RRJ expects to have its maiden flight in September 2007. In November 2008 they expect to have it operational.





Source: Luchtvaartnieuws
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=13645

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5697 times:

It would be interesting to know how such a study is made by a airline. Anybody who have that info? It must be a lot of things to consider.

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5624 times:

SNBA is also looking at this jet to replace her regional aircraft. If the Jet is as good as it looks, for which I have no reason to doubt it, it sure will be a fine aircraft. And for us, aviation enthousiasts, a nice change from the ussual.

A listprice of about 20 million is mentioned here. I assume that, as with bigger jets, nobody pays the listprice? Since 20 million is probably more than what FR pays for their 737's, what would be the typically discounted price in this categorie of jets of the now offered models? And what are the listprices of these regional jets?



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User currently offlineSASDC8 From Norway, joined Mar 2006, 755 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5616 times:
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Interesting to hear that they are considering a Russian aircraft... Still the last I read in the SAS internal magazine, was that they were considering CRJ and Embraer as the most likely new A/C..
In Widerøes case I think only Turbo prop (Bombardier) is likely....

The RRJ looks good though Wink



2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5581 times:

The RRJ is a very intriguing aircraft. On paper it seems great. Getting SAS as it's first Western, main-stream customer would be huge for Russia so I imagine they would get a steep discount.

I wonder how much politics might be playing in this consideration. The partially state owned Norwegian companies of Statoil and Hydro are currently in strong consideration as main partners in the development of the Stockman gas-field in the Barents Sea. Considering how many billions of dollars and euros Norway will make from that deal annually I can see how partially state owned SAS could be under pressure to look at the RRJ.

This will certainly be an interesting development. If SAS were to go with Sukhoi it will certainly be a huge shot accross the bow of Bombardier, whose aircraft SAS has a lot of.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3564 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5562 times:

If SAS did it, I would also imagine LH to be the next in line for the RRJ... I would like to see russian jets in western airlines, and since this is a joint venture with lots of western companies, it would very probably also be on western standards in terms of spare parts supply and service support...

User currently offlineTreg From Estonia, joined Oct 2001, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5539 times:

Now that's going to be interesting. And I'm afraid that the quality of the aircraft has here less to say than the politics.

Russian aircraft for Estonian Air and Air Baltic. It is something like US-based carrier would buy aircrafts made in Iran or China. Yes, I know, it is a joint venture, but public perception is another story... I bet it will generate some discussions up here  Wink


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
And for us, aviation enthousiasts, a nice change from the ussual.

I couldn't agree with you more!  bigthumbsup 

A related question. Are the numbers on the tails of the second illustration (60, 75, 95) the number of people each version is supposed to carry? If this is the case, is the first one the only 60-seater out there (as the Embraers and Canadairs seem to have a gap between 50 and 70/75 seats)?

Regards,

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineRainmaker From Brazil, joined Jan 2006, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

I believe that a $ 20 MM tag price is a bit unrealistic for an aircraft like this. Especially if you understand that there won't be apparently much of Russian government money involved. Private investors would try and get a return on their investment (Finmecanica, snecma, the myriad of western suppliers).

Anyway the problem with Russian aviation is NOT whether they can design or build an aircraft. They surely can. The point is, have they got what it takes to deliver the a/c on time and keep them reliable? Designing and tooling is just one half of the engineering requirement. The other half relates to a less glamorous you may say capability: production engineering. that comprises logistics, assembling, testing, component tracking, customer relations (mx). It's one very complicated business overall.

Take care


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

The main question -mark with the RRJ-XXX family is the very low engine-nacelle with reference to the runway ( only 40 cm...!!)
If you check the specification drawings supplied by Suchoi,you will be surprised by the mechanical design.
I fully agree on the technical specs being ebsolutely attracive -technology wise the aircraft is great -but I fear some customers might find the small distance between engines and runway dangerous ( inhaust of dust/stones/debris/water..)



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2074 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

re: low ground clearance of RRJ engine intakes,
Maybe they can add some blowpipes/forward exhaust for ground movements like the 737-200 rough field kit had?

What happened to Bombardier's semi-recent interest in the RRJ? If they were to handle marketing, spares, support etc... Embraer might have a problem in future for a change.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineL1329II From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Come on now... is it just me or do these airplanes look almost exactly like the A320 line up?

Those sneaky Russians! "Designing" another aircraft that looks ... hhhmmmm ... well just like someone elses design. Yet another Russian A/C designed by someone else!


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4634 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5221 times:

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 9):
I believe that a $ 20 MM tag price is a bit unrealistic for an aircraft like this. Especially if you understand that there won't be apparently much of Russian government money involved. Private investors would try and get a return on their investment (Finmecanica, snecma, the myriad of western suppliers).

The $20 million price tag is a bargain compared to the list price of the other regional jets SAS is considering. If you've been to Russia you will discover that everything is extremely cheap there in comparison to prices in Western Europe.

I hope SAS evaluate the aircraft and the evaluation warrants an order, because it would be great to see their industry get back on its feet in a proper way!



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineL1329II From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5204 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 13):
The $20 million price tag is a bargain compared to the list price of the other regional jets SAS is considering. If you've been to Russia you will discover that everything is extremely cheap there in comparison to prices in Western Europe.

I hope SAS evaluate the aircraft and the evaluation warrants an order, because it would be great to see their industry get back on its feet in a proper way!

I would love to see what would happen if any US or North American airline were to eval these planes. $20 M is a bargain even for a used airplane.


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3996 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 13):
The $20 million price tag is a bargain compared to the list price of the other regional jets SAS is considering. If you've been to Russia you will discover that everything is extremely cheap there in comparison to prices in Western Europe.

The RRJ will only be Russian to some extent. Most of the expensive add-ons to the fuselage are "Western" products and come with the related price-tag - avionics, engines, galleys etc. do not care if the fly around in a winged tube from Russia, the UK or the U.S. That said, "westernizing" Russian aircraft
narrows the price gap to some extent (it is, however, still considerable).

By the way, if the maiden flight is scheduled for SEP07, when can we expect roll-out ?

[Edited 2006-05-03 17:21:51]

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
And for us, aviation enthousiasts, a nice change from the ussual.

I beg to differ as long as it has no T-tail or rear mounted engines or a completely new design it will not look that different from other new aircrafts that fly around these days.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4634 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5102 times:

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 15):
The RRJ will only be Russian to some extent. Most of the expensive add-ons to the fuselage are "Western" products and come with the related price-tag - avionics, engines, galleys etc. do not care if the fly around in a winged tube from Russia, the UK or the U.S. That said, "westernizing" Russian aircraft
narrows the price gap to some extent (it is, however, still considerable).

Actually, the article in Flight said that most of the component suppliers of the aircraft are the same people who supply for Airbus and Boeing. As such, the price is the same even with those suppliers. These so called "western" components you mention are standard on the RRJ.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

It has been said for a long time , that Air France is studying the RRJ for their partner affiliates.

Either RRJ , CRJ ,EMB190............another plane in the huge aircarft type SAS collection !!!


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Quoting Treg (Reply 7):
Russian aircraft for Estonian Air and Air Baltic. It is something like US-based carrier would buy aircrafts made in Iran or China.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Forgive me my ignorance, but what is the form of affiliation between SAS and Estonian/Air Baltic (other than through the FFP which I am aware of in case of Air Baltic)?


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4921 times:

Quoting L1329II (Reply 12):
Those sneaky Russians! "Designing" another aircraft that looks ... hhhmmmm ... well just like someone elses design. Yet another Russian A/C designed by someone else!

Please tell me you're joking...



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4894 times:

Quoting OwlEye (Thread starter):
SAS is studying the possibility to buy the RRJ-Sukhoi's Russian Regional Jet



Quoting OwlEye (Thread starter):
The Embraer 190 and the CRJ900 are also in the race



Quoting OwlEye (Thread starter):
replacement aircraft for its affiliates Blue1 (Finnland), Widerøe (Norway), Air Baltic (Letland), Estonian Air (Estland) and Spanair (Spain)

What aircraft types will be replaced by the Sukhoi RRJ? I wonder especially in the case of Spanair.

Does Sukhoi have a technological-strategic partner from the west?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineL1329II From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4890 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 20):
Please tell me you're joking...

No not really. You mean to tell me these birds look nothing like an airbus 320 series?

What about the Buran? No, that looks nothing like a US space shuttle.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
but what is the form of affiliation between SAS and Estonian/Air Baltic (other than through the FFP which I am aware of in case of Air Baltic)?

SAS owns 47,2% of the Air Baltic shares and 49% of Estonian Air shares.


User currently offlineTreg From Estonia, joined Oct 2001, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
Forgive me my ignorance, but what is the form of affiliation between SAS and Estonian/Air Baltic (other than through the FFP which I am aware of in case of Air Baltic)?

Minority owner. But acts like majority owner. The recent developments have raised quite many eyebrows here in Estonia. Seems that SAS strategy is to have only one airline in Baltics and this would be airBaltic. All Estonian Air (OV) expansion plans have been scrapped while airBaltic grows like crazy. Even OV-s timetable lists flights starting both, from TLL and RIX, although OV has no flights starting from RIX...


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

Quoting L1329II (Reply 22):
No not really. You mean to tell me these birds look nothing like an airbus 320 series?

They may look like those, but this is NOT, absolutely NOT relevant.

You design a modern aircraft with wing mounted engines, how should it look ? It can't be very different from the A320 "look" you know.

How did you expect it to look ??? Like an Avro with tail mounted engines or what ???


I'm sorry, but this aircraft was designed by the Russians, if you like it or not.

Quoting L1329II (Reply 22):
What about the Buran? No, that looks nothing like a US space shuttle.

Is this ironic ? If not, I let you know that in some ways the buran is more advanced compared to the Shuttle which has tons of problems...



Exceptions confirm the rule.
25 Joost : Is it such a bargain? A 737-800 has a list price of $60M and is way larger. There are many rumours about the huge discounts launch airlines and mass-
26 RedChili : Everything? Have you ever tried to get a hotel room in Moscow or Petersburg? Or how about renting an apartment in Moscow? Or how about getting some d
27 Post contains images OV735 : I must say I noticed the similarity too, and I cannot understand how some can miss it. Like the A320, the RRJ also has two wings and two engines. How
28 RIX : - exactly. Right before this, I'd expect all the taxi cabs in Riga to be "Volga" cars again, while right after this the main street in Riga will be r
29 Post contains images CRJ900 : So does the Embraer E190, it looks like an A320 going through puberty... Didn't Bombardier take the CRJ900 on a promo tour to Stockholm in 2002 when
30 L1329II : I couldnt agree more! I apologize for the way my previous thread sounded. I was trying to be sarcastic and I came across as an attack. No offense int
31 Post contains images Scoliodon : The RRJ looks good. Looks more like a stumpy E-170..
32 Post contains images CRJ900 : I don't think anyone here has been offended, it is true that the E-jets and the RRJ look like the A320 family because they kind of are the same... si
33 Acidradio : OK, given that "western" RJ's are produced in countries that will sell them at "welfare-state" prices, $20mil is almost a ripoff. I've heard from pilo
34 TheSonntag : I would not be surprised to see 2 cockpit types for the RRJ... One for the domestic market, and one for international customers. If the RRJ gets a gl
35 Post contains images PavlovsDog : I think if the RRJ is to be compared to any aircraft the aborted F-728 project would be more apt. The are both wide (five-abreast) families of regiona
36 A342 : Yes, the Buran has only made one flight, but it has done this automatically. Has any US spacecraft intended for manned missions ever flown automatica
37 ClassicLover : I stayed in hotels in Moscow and St. Petersburg in October. Extremely cheap indeed, and very very good! So on that one, you're wrong. Renting and apa
38 Post contains links RedChili : "Moscow has replaced Paris as the most expensive city for corporate hotel rates, a survey for travel management company BTI UK shows... The Russian c
39 Post contains images ClassicLover : Different to leisure... I'd bet it's more than this than anything, especially with Americans! $253 per night isn't that bad at all for 4 or 5 star!!!
40 Post contains links and images Hentzz : Quoting Treg (Reply 6): Russianrnaircraft for Estonian Air and Air Baltic. It is something like US-basedrncarrier would buy aircrafts made in Iran or
41 Post contains images L1329II : No... they just explode on the launch pad! Sorry I just couldnt resist!
42 Post contains images A342 : Good one L1329 !
43 Post contains images Solnabo : Like the look of RRJ, even thou it looks like a mix of A and B If SK goes for the RRJ then 736 will be sold or leased I guess, even the 321 goes the s
44 RIX : - this has nothing to do with the spacecraft performance itself, nor does it tell anything about Shuttle "tons of problems" that Buran is free of, as
45 RedChili : NASA flew both the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo spacecraft in automatic mode before they put astronauts in them. E.g. in the Gemini program, the first
46 A342 : Please tell me where I said this ? It is very useful to test a manned spacecraft unmanned on the first flights. IIRC, if the Chinese hadn't done this
47 RIX : - your "buran is more advanced compared to the Shuttle which has tons of problems..." assumes Buran wouldn't have these problems, be it in service of
48 RedChili : I'm sure you mean 40th birthday. The first Vostok launch was on 23 April 1967. Quote from "Men from Earth" by Buzz Aldrin: "Tereshkova was not a pilo
49 A342 : No, I said this from a technological standpoint. And I do not agree that the Buran has similar tons of problems, too, becuase we don't know. Well I a
50 RIX : - exactly, but since she was a passenger not much more than other 5 Vostok cosmonauts, even as all of them were Air Force pilots. I mean, sounded lik
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