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Armavia Crash - The Facts  
User currently offlineBBJII From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 850 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 29634 times:

There's alot of speculation in the original thread, can we atleast honour those who perished and there loved ones, with a thread with ONLY the facts so far:
Original Thread:
Breaking: Armenian Airline Flight Off Radar (by Ammunition May 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Date of Crash: 03/05/2006
Time of Crash: unknown...vanished from Radar 0215Local
Place of Crash: Black Sea, Approx 6 miles short of Runway
Fatalities: 113 including crew (105 pax 8 crew)
Aircraft: Airbus A320
Registration: EK-32009
Weather: Poor


Please keep this to the FACTS only.....Thanks


BBJII
  

[Edited 2006-05-04 00:34:58]

[Edited 2006-05-04 00:36:00]


Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
166 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1317 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 29544 times:

A/C was flying from the Armenian capital, Yerevan, to Sochi, on Russia's Black Sea coast. A flight of around an hours duration. A/C initially refused permission to land due to poor weather, but permission was later granted. A/C crashed on its second landing attempt. According to the BBC website, A/C was manufactured in 1995 and had under gone "checks" last month. Terrorism ruled out as a possible cause.

RIP to all on board, all accidents are truly horrible. I sincerely hope this thread doesn't get hijacked by those with nothing better to do than pick a fight.


User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4174 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 29424 times:
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As no one has noticed this, just a paste of my post.
Nothing else to add and I think it still stands :
What do we know so far :
1/-The aircraft attempted several approaches.
2/- at some time, the airport was closed for rain and weather.
3/- the METAR (see post 110 by Saturn )mentioned 4000 m visibility in rain shower and mist, a ceiling of 600 ft and temporarily a visibility of 1500 m and a vertical visibility of 500 ft and some gust (confirming the cbs around).
4/- Although we do not know of the type of approach they were shooting,

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 111):
this is an interesting approach....
ILS runway 2 CAT C/D aircraft : DH(A) : 774' (722)

not a typical approach at all, the missed approach point is halfway down the glideslope, instead of the last 200 feet, you go missed at 722 feet above the ground... the NDB approach minimums are the same.

ILS 6 DH(A) : 594 (558)

NDB Runway 6 - MDA 1000 feet msl..

so as you can see, the MAP is unconventional for this airport, reason : high terrain on departure end of both runways MSA north of airport is 11,900 feet!!!!!!!

south MSA is 1600 feet.....tricky tricky tricky...

, we can remark that all approaches have minimums that are above the tempo vertical visibility, and very close or above the prevailing conditions.
As a matter of fact, these conditions might well be looked at as an approach ban .
5/-There was no PAn, or Mayday call for a fuel situation.
6/- There was no apparent cabin preparation for an emergency.

The rest is pure speculation :
1/-Disorientation....quite possible. At least some conditions are present :night approach, low cloud break, difficult terrain with a coastline and mountains....and finally no definite horizon...
2/-System failure....unlikely on a modern jet with all the redundancy built into the design.
3/-Pilot error...Probably some discutable decision making from the captain as in my experience and opinion, the more attempts you make, the more dangerous you become...

That's my two euro cents' worth.

Regards



Contrail designer
User currently offlineChksix From Sweden, joined Sep 2005, 345 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 29293 times:

I'm quoting "727forever"
"Just food for thought. Past accidents with the A320 on approach have involved the FPA mode for non-precision approaches. Many carriers do not use this mode because of safety issues with descending on a specified rate to an unlimited point, ie you do not have an altitude capture point at MDA. Airbus still promotes, strong arms, airlines into using this system. Throw this in with fatigue from trying an approach several times and you now have a potential situation. Just food for thought."

The most likely cause IMO....



The conveyor belt plane will fly
User currently offlineMaartenV From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 29238 times:

A/C was ex Ansett Australia VH-HYO and maintained by Sabena Technics.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Cheburator
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Craig Murray


According to Armavia, the captain was very experienced and they blame the weather for the accident.



Its all about supply and demand...
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4174 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 29128 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Chksix,
Feel free to ask any question on an aspect you do not understand.
The post you cite is so far off the mark that I can't see where to begin.
The use of the "TRK-FPA" (meaning Track with flight path angle, as opposed to the other choice of "HDG-VS" or heading + vertical speed ) mode is the only one possible on non precision approaches and I can vouch, after ten years on 'buses that it is a lot more accurate and easier to fly than the usual raw data cum stopwatch which you fly in a 727.
Secondly, close to the ground, any pilot worthy of the title would not start a descent - using whatever mode he chooses - without an identified start-of-descent point...
The TRK-FPA mode, coupled with the GPS is the basis for RNAV precision approaches.
You and your quote do not know what you're talking about.

That said, This is a site, though unofficial, that shows the different approaches on Sochi.
Take the list, go to Russia, click on Sochi and get the compressed file.
It shows how uncommon this airport is, especially the very high minimums.
Approach charts



Contrail designer
User currently offlineDrExotica From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 29025 times:

In Google Earth, goto 43o26'47"N and 39o56'35"E to see a terrain representation of the airport. Tricky indeed.

Erik

(too lazy to figure out how to attach a proper KMZ)



N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
User currently offlineABpositive From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 29012 times:

I was just reading from the BBC website, a victim's relative was being interviewed and said:
"Mum called 10 minutes before the expected landing time to say the plane was about to land - she already had a phone signal," Akop Akopian told the AFP news agency.

Would it be possible that the use of a mobile phone (possibly more than one) would have contributed to some instruments giving incorrect readings or malfunctioning (e.g. reading incorrect altitude)? I know that from the air and at such a distance from a nearest base station, mobile devices would need to emit quite a strong signal.

My sympathies to all victims, relatives and friends.


User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 28862 times:

Disconcerting to hear local officials yet again blame the "weather" for a crash. That's rather like blaming God. Kenya was quick to blame the "weather' a few weeks ago for the Marsabit crash...until a few more details came out of the human factors...

Quote:
Armavia's deputy commercial director, Andrei Agadzhanov, said the weather conditions were "certainly" the cause because the crew was highly experienced and the airliner itself was in good condition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,1766559,00.html.


User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 28671 times:

RIP to all on board........

I would imagine that a human error caused the crash, planes land in that sort of weather every day.......



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 28569 times:

According to this source, when the flight crew were informed of the poor weather conditions in Sochi, they were going to land in Tbilisi, Georgia instead. Later, air traffic controllers told them that the weather had improved and the flight crew decided to continue to Sochi.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20060503/47145755.html



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineHS-LTA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 1999, 231 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 28341 times:

For runway 02 and 06
it is an ILS approach
RWY 02 CAT C/D aircraft ILS vis min is 3300m and 4100m(if ALS out)
RWY 06 CAT C/D airctaft ILS vis min is 3100m.
I am surprise the ILS min is so high.
And the METRA reported is Tempo 1500m,which is below the min for both runway.I am not sure why the pilot still continous the approach..


User currently offlineEdelag From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 27569 times:

Quoting DrExotica (Reply 6):
(too lazy to figure out how to attach a proper KMZ)

Saved you the trouble.

You can download the kmz here:
http://www.mascarita.com/otrascosas/sochi.kmz



It's not just the destination, it's the journey.
User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 27297 times:

Quoting Edelag (Reply 12):
Saved you the trouble

Thank you! Very helpful. Wow, what an incredible airport position! Makes WLG look OK!


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 27058 times:

According to Armavia, the captain was very experienced and they blame the weather for the accident.
***

Isn't this an oxymoron. If he was experienced, then he should know better than to try and land in weather that is bad enough to cause a crash.


User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 26742 times:

Quote:
With high winds, rain, and thick cloud at 300ft, ground controllers told the pilot to put off the landing. Reports say that after the plane had circled, the airport tower told the pilot that he was cleared to land. What happened next is unclear. The jet flew out to sea and made a wide circle, lining up with the airport. Although the runway lights would have been invisible through the low cloud, the plane would have been guided along its flight path by radar systems. Possibly the plane, coming in to land, hit an area of low pressure, causing it to drop. The condition, called wind sheer, is not fatal at altitude because jets have time to recover, but close to the sea the plane may have lacked the room to manoeuvre. No distress call was made by the crew

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=664652006.


User currently offlineAsv From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 26742 times:

Quoting ABpositive (Reply 7):
Would it be possible that the use of a mobile phone (possibly more than one) would have contributed to some instruments giving incorrect readings or malfunctioning (e.g. reading incorrect altitude)? I

While anything is possible, I highly doubt mobile phones would have any affect of the instruments of a commercial airliner. Many general aviation pilots use cell phones in the cockpit regularly. The cell phone ban is more about controlling passengers and cabin environment, and less about interference.


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 26551 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
The post you cite is so far off the mark that I can't see where to begin.
The use of the "TRK-FPA" (meaning Track with flight path angle, as opposed to the other choice of "HDG-VS" or heading + vertical speed ) mode is the only one possible on non precision approaches and I can vouch, after ten years on 'buses that it is a lot more accurate and easier to fly than the usual raw data cum stopwatch which you fly in a 727.
Secondly, close to the ground, any pilot worthy of the title would not start a descent - using whatever mode he chooses - without an identified start-of-descent point...
The TRK-FPA mode, coupled with the GPS is the basis for RNAV precision approaches.
You and your quote do not know what you're talking about.

Pihero,

I don't want to get into a finger pointing session here on a good thread, but you've forced me to speak up. When I made my initial post it was early on and we did not know what type of approach was being performed. At the time it was speculated that it was an NDB approach. I threw the TRK-FPA out as 'food for thought' only, something to rule out once more data came in. Now that we know that they were on the ILS 2 I don't see how TRK-FPA would have an affect. That being said, I stand behind my statement. Relax and don't get excited on me.

727forever

p.s. And previously A320 Captain



727forever
User currently offlineClumsy From Turkey, joined Dec 2005, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 26069 times:

Greetings to everyone;
I do not know the 320 system (not even have a clue) but could it be possible that the system that called MCP in 737 got locked while attempting a second landing in that low altitude it would possibly push hard the crew may be.
We know that the plane was attempting a second approach.
Unable to land at the first one, climbing to its divert cruising level, returning back to execute an approach...
Also i do remember lots of false capture happenings in 737 NG's although they have two GPS...
Lets hope to get to a lesson at soon as possible that will lead us another safe path.
With my best regards,


User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 24208 times:

Wikipedia already has a page on the crash:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armavia_Flight_967.
- it includes a reference to a pic of the plane on airliner.net: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1028365/L/.


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 24123 times:

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 14):
According to Armavia, the captain was very experienced and they blame the weather for the accident.
***

Isn't this an oxymoron. If he was experienced, then he should know better than to try and land in weather that is bad enough to cause a crash.

Unfortunately, even the most experienced pilots can make mistakes. Remember that it was KLM's senior training captain who was in command of the 747 that attempted to take off from Los Rodeos but collided with a taxiing PanAm 747 resulting in possibly the worst air accident in terms of casualties.

There is an interesting article in today's Moscow Times that says "the plane crashed due to mistakes by the pilot". According to the article

Quote:
The plane made its first approach toward Adler airport around 3 a.m. local time but was unable to land due to poor visibility. The plane circled and made a second approach, during which visibility again dropped below minimum acceptable levels. Air traffic controllers advised the pilot to climb to 600 meters.

It was during the climb, at 3:15 a.m., that the plane made a sharp turn and dropped off Adler airport's radar, a member of the airport's technical staff said, Interfax reported.

"The A320's speed was about 250 kilometers per hour, which may not have been enough for it to gain altitude," the source said.

The plane hit the water at a steep angle, Beltsov said.

I am not a pilot but I have read that the A320's fly-by-wire systems and in-built safety measures would make a stall impossible. So perhaps we are looking at similarities to the AF A320 crash at Mulhouse in June 1988 (the low air show fly-past accident)?

[Edited 2006-05-04 10:19:39]


MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineJavibi From Spain, joined Oct 2004, 1371 posts, RR: 42
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23997 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
The use of the "TRK-FPA" (meaning Track with flight path angle, as opposed to the other choice of "HDG-VS" or heading + vertical speed ) mode is the only one possible on non precision approaches

Not true; it is the procedure recommended by AI, but not the only one possible, you can still fly non-precission approaches in HDG-V/S as in any other plane.

Regards

j



"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2537 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23929 times:

I fly the same aircraft as Clumsy does, and have experienced false capture in aircraft of all sorts...that's why you should wait to be within an intercept heading of 90 degrees to press either the VOR/LOC button or the APP button. I am not familiar with the A320's approach system, i know they have LS or ILS buttons.

For those of you who don't know, false capture, here is a super basic explanation. Electronic signals or transmissions have some sort of mirror wave, that produce somewhat of a similar signal in different directions, im sure an avionics person can lay out the definition better. But anyways, your aircraft can pick up this signal and take you to the source, but it can take you at the wrong heading big time. In order to go to the Navigation aid on the proper course or heading, we are required to select the approach mode at a proper position, that is why we never touch the VOR/LOC or APP mode button on the downwind for a runway, it might ask you to turn RIGHT towards the localizer and dive....so we wait until we are on a safe intercept heading past the base position....

Many people diss the NDB approach and talk about NDBs being obsolete soon, but NDBs are one of the BEST ways of telling if you've false captured of not, that's why i always have 2 ndbs tuned and check to make sure they point in the same direction and cross check the RMI with the course selector.

I have talked to some pilots that have flown to Sochi, and other airports in the region, and they said that sometimes there are interrupted signals from navigation aids at airports around there, could be from weather, coastal effect or just the age of the aids...

hope this helps



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23797 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 20):
There is an interesting article in today's Moscow Times that says "the plane crashed due to mistakes by the pilot".

That's the same thing Focus Online said in their article. Perhaps they just translated the article from the Moscow Times.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 20):
I am not a pilot but I have read that the A320's fly-by-wire systems and in-built safety measures would make a stall impossible. So perhaps we are looking at similarities to the AF A320 crash at Mulhouse in June 1988 (the low air show fly-past accident)?

What you're suggesting is that the Alpha Floor protection, which I believe is the function used for keeping an FBW Airbus from stalling, failed or was perhaps turned off. But then again, this is just speculation.


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1557 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 23724 times:

Quoting Clumsy (Reply 18):
Also i do remember lots of false capture happenings in 737 NG's although they have two GPS...

Vay Kardeþim aramýza hoþgeldin.  Smile

The false capture as we experience on the 737 generally happens in either the APP mode selected out of the 8/18 capture criteria(approximetely 8 degrees/18NM's that generally gives a guaranteed Loc/GS capture)
,or a faulty(low nav aid coverage which used to happed a lot in african desert airports).A good airmanship is always crooscheck with the conventional instruments even to you have a good GS/LOC capture indication on the FMA.Good old ADF always points the airport direction  Smile


[



Widen your world
25 Post contains links Antskip : Two slightly different claims are made in the article in the on-line English edition of the Moscow Times. http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2006/05/0
26 Wing : I think you have been misleaded here.If you put an altitude lower on than your current altitude on the altitude window,the airplane certainly will st
27 Sevenair : I've not seen the METARS/TAFS but CBs aren't the only cause of gusts. If its hilly, there's a strong chance of katabatic winds flowing at night. If w
28 Navigator : This crash follows a tragic trend showing accidents after multiple approach attempts. Many carriers forbid pilots to try a third approach except in an
29 BCAL : But, as I said in my earlier reply, the A320 has safety features that prevent the aircraft from stalling. So this rules out a stall, unless the 'very
30 Navigator : I assume that the most relevant experience in this case is on this specific type. This is what I meant... And I know about the Alphafloor protection.
31 Post contains links Singel09 : recently pictured by me, 5th of April 2006. At AMS. Sad. http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/big/ready/ek32009mteerds.jpg Mause
32 Pilotaydin : something needs to be cleared up here, more so for non pilots. Experience is an extremely relative thing...when someone talks about experience, they t
33 BBJII : HELLO,, How many of you have actually Stated FACTS!!!!! about this accident? Just a few of the NON FACT posts.... I am trying to uncover the FACTS. We
34 Pilotaydin : what is this? a NAZI thread? people say certain things which leads to dicsussions about other things, this is perfectly normal. Clumsy talked about fa
35 Post contains links NAV20 : This seems to be a pretty good summary of everything that's been published. Salient points are that the pilot appears to have tried one approach and d
36 Scorpio : So, for the first time in a long time we are seeing a civilised discussion in which people in-the-know (pilots in this case) contribute heavily, you
37 Post contains images BCAL : Well I encountered many wannabe airline CEOs and pilots on this site, but a self-appointed judge/prosecutor demanding facts only is a first! The rela
38 NAV20 : Nevertheless, Scorpio, surely there are no grounds for intensive discussion on whether the pilot was inadequately trained, inexperienced, fatigued, di
39 Treeny : Couldnt agree more. I dont mean to sound like some kind of sicko but its reading threads like these that actually help people like us who have a pass
40 Post contains images BBJII : CAL & NAV20 Thanks The point is, so much is being said, it's creating false impression's in people's minds, and false speculation has ammounted: If WE
41 Post contains images Tu204 : Actually, there were 111 people on board, two passengers were denied boarding during pre-boarding security in Yerevan. As far as I know, the aircraft
42 Kaniksu : Who are you? Do you have all of the facts? Does anyone? None of us were on the flight and none of us know what happened. All we have is speculation a
43 BBJII : I do have extra information, posted in the original thread. I know people at Georgian ATC and Armenian ATC. All of whom are somewhat distraught. Howev
44 Theredbaron : Its a sad event, and of course a lot of speculation will come up in this thread, since no one I know in A net is in the area investigating FACTS, so l
45 Wing : There is only one fact here that you can not come to any conclusion about the cause of any airplane accident in the next day.If you want to learn the
46 727forever : Alpha floor is always armed, unless perhaps autothrust is deferred. Once Alpha floor activates you can cancel it but it re-arms for the next low spee
47 Post contains links Zeke : Quoting Pihero (Reply 5): The use of the "TRK-FPA" (meaning Track with flight path angle, as opposed to the other choice of "HDG-VS" or heading + vert
48 Zeke : That is incorrect, you would have set the go-around altitude at the FAF, FCOM 3.03.19 Pg 9. Autopilot disconnects at MDA -50 ft. I enjoy flying a raw
49 Glareskin : I'm not sure if this is mentioned before but the newsradio reported about a warning for some specific sort of serious turbulence close to the airport.
50 Kaniksu : So you demand nothing but the facts, then claim you have facts that others do not have but that you cannot share them. You shouldn't have even bother
51 Pilotaydin : the approach chart fo the airport has this warning on it..... severe mountain wave turbulence should be expected on final
52 727forever : So lets say that you get down to MDA and have nothing in sight. You can't keep descending so you must level off at MDA until you fly to the MAP. Sinc
53 Saturn5 : I think you do it only for ILS approaches - you set your missed approach alt at FAF since it won't interfere with the approach. For non precisions ap
54 Alphafloor889 : i come to think about 1 thing... to me it sounds like some kind of problem with the ILS or other nav aids is rather unlikley. but thats just how it so
55 UN_B732 : This may be in the wrong thread (if it is, delete it) Does this not seem like the GF A320 crash, where he stalled out and crashed after trying to do a
56 TheSonntag : You are not the only one who has said this... We will have to wait for the investigation, of course, but both accidents seem to have lots of similari
57 Saturn5 : No, I would not call it rubbish but it is self contradictory. If he was too close and too high/fast for the location then it means he had too much en
58 Drinkstrolley : Ooooooohhhhhhhhh, you're sooooooo important aren't you? (not). Why mention this in the first place then?
59 Post contains links Kaneporta1 : There is some interesting information here about the GF A320 that crashed in 2000: http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/others/GF072Final.html
60 Pihero : Is there a way to have a drawing of the Jepp's ILS approach plate for RWY 02 ? In my airline, we have our own documentation and Sochi is not part of
61 Saturn5 : I have to agree. People have a hard time accepting the fact that professional pilots can suffer from spatial dsorientation but the history of aircraf
62 Stirling : This aircraft went down in the middle of the night. Fact. So. Was it delayed in some way? Did it go MX in EVN? If this was supposed to have been a da
63 Dc10rules : Slightly off topic, but I was wondering if anyone knew what US legacy carriers policies are on this?
64 BuyantUkhaa : Sixty degrees was mentioned. How could they know? It was night, visibility was low, nobody saw that plane. Black boxes have not been recovered. Did t
65 Antskip : Fascinating post, thank you, Pilotaydin! Not a fact there, but I learnt a lot from a thoughtful pilot and person who brings a different perspective t
66 EZYAirbus : Couldnt agree more! Instead of posting on here telling us what happened, they should be at crash scene telling officials! Glenn
67 Kazzie : Couldn't agree More, Deepest Regrets to those who have lost lives.. Just wait until a report come out before you jump to speculation of how people ha
68 Stirling : Then I suppose we should just shut down this thread. Good night everybody! But one last question.... I show the U8 flight EVN-AER arriving at 0815LT.
69 Kazzie : I suppose you would want a bunch of people speculating on how one of your relatives were killed? would you like that? All I am saying is, Have some c
70 Antskip : Then don't read any of this discussion, and wait for the official report. Actually, the discussion has mostly been trying to find out what might be t
71 Pilotaydin : Kazzie...i see where you are coming from...but this is kinda bizare.... speculation or trying to figure out what happened doesn't make the accident l
72 Starlionblue : You think accident investigators don't brainstorm in exactly the same way? Scientific examination involves hypotheses tested against facts. If you ha
73 Antskip : Comments like this remind me of anti-pornography crusaders who daily consume large amounts of pornography to check out constantly how sinful it all i
74 Raffik : Well said! What happened to the freedom of speech?
75 Saturn5 : If you do then you should not really be starting this thread in the first place. Lock or kill this thread and relaunch or revive it say a year from t
76 Post contains images David L : I think the problem may have arisen because someone else reintroduced it later on. In this case, blame the messenger, perhaps? Because it's that time
77 Zeke : An ILS does not have a FAF, it has a FAP. On an ILS when you capture G/S* you also set the go-around altitude. Similar on a NPA, the go-around altitu
78 Pihero : According to AFP, the "black boxes" have been localised and a deep sea robot is due to retrieve them. So, after all, we won't have to wait too long fo
79 Starlionblue : Exactly. Lessons learned from accidents don't sprout fully formed from the head of Zeus. You have to punch the problem around to get to the conclusio
80 Stirling : If there was disrespectful things being said, sure, but so far, this is one of the most civil discussions I have seen on a crash in awhile.
81 Post contains links NAV20 : Some more new information. The BBC has some pictures of salvaged wreckage (parts of the tailfin and landing-gear). They certainly confirm that it went
82 Comorin : If a bunch of pilots were sitting around, and heard the news of an airliner going down, their discussion would be exactly what we are reading in this
83 727forever : Zeke thank you for answering my question. You have just proved my original point that a few on here wanted to question my credibility on. Using TRK-F
84 OD720 : Because of repairs and upgrades on EVN's main rwy, all flights are being operated between 8 pm and 10 am local time. That's why the flight, as all ot
85 Electech6299 : I heard the 60-degree quote early on- maybe 3-4 hours after the incident, I think it was referenced to one of the recovery boat operators. The ships
86 Saturn5 : Worthless guess as other statements coming from the Russian sources which are simply beyond the pale. As to your question 4 - there is nothing 'abnor
87 Drinkstrolley : Kazzie, we agree on something at long last. I am going to add you to my respected user list on general principle.
88 Post contains links OD720 : The website is http://www.u8.am Here is the schedule from their website, it's on schedule: 0030000 A320 01.45 02.00 U8-967 Sochi
89 Electech6299 : Not sure I understand, can't read the link. Was the flight on schedule or delayed? According to BBJII's info, they normally offer daylight flights, b
90 OD720 : It says the flight on Wednesday departs Yerevan (EVN) 1:45 am and arrives in Sochi at 2:00 am. So there were no delays with this particular flight. T
91 Pihero : No, the high minimum is to prevent flying over land without visual references. As far as I can gather, the missed approach calls for a right turn to
92 Drinkstrolley : That is my contribution, thought that would have been obvious.
93 Zeke : MDA + 100 get "100 above call" MDA "Minima call" MDA - 50, master caution + mode reversion + autopilot disconnect Hard to miss ALL of these Dive and
94 Post contains links Keta : I find it awesome that Airbus quotes the crash on their main site. See www.airbus.com , or directly http://www.airbus.com/crisis/index.html
95 Post contains links A319XFW : This about the aircraft is on the Airbus website. http://www.airbus.com/crisis/index.html
96 Post contains links Electech6299 : Thanks, Pihero- and thanks for correcting my conversion and grammar errors. So it looks like with the available info, we don't know wheter the first
97 Post contains links NAV20 : Some puzzling new angles in here:- "Weather at Sochi was poor with rain and poor visibility. The crew were cleared for an approach to runway 06, which
98 Pilotaydin : ive posted 3 times now that both runways have ILS....
99 Post contains links Stirling : http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060506/47836339.html Like many of you I am reading anything an everything I can get my hands on concerning this crash...it
100 David L : He probably just meant that the two man crew also performs the navigation and flight engineer roles, i.e. the navigator and flight engineer weren't "
101 Zeke : As Pilotaydin said it has an ILS, and better approach lighting than 06. Sochi 89' URSS AER +03:00* N43 26.7 E039 56.9 Apt Operator (862-2) 442644; Fa
102 Zeke : Chart NOTAMs for airport URSS Description Effective Expires Ufn rwy 06/24 avbl during day only, T/O VIS raised to 2000m. With Immediate Effect Until F
103 NAV20 : Just to make sure I've translated the abbreviations correctly, Zeke (that was the problem earlier), "Until further notice Instrument Landing System R
104 Post contains images Zeke : Correct, the only legal way to land at night is either ILS 06 and circle for 02, or the NDB for 02. The following charts should help visualise the pr
105 BuyantUkhaa : Thanks for the info. Comparing this chart with the satellite images of the first thread (which are no longer available unfortunately) it seems that th
106 NAV20 : Thanks, Zeke. Occurs to me that I was possibly wrong to say 'better-lit'. Presumably, once the threshold had been moved, Runway 06 was effectively 'un
107 Zeke : The chart notam does not mention if the 06 threshold had been moved, however I assume from the increased T/O VIS that the runway lights were u/s. 24
108 NAV20 : BuyantUkhaa, if you use the link in Post 97 above and click on 'Show Map' you'll find the same satellite image with the crash location shown in line w
109 BuyantUkhaa : NAV20, thanks! It does indeed seem exactly on the extended runway centreline.
110 NAV20 : Thanks again, Zeke. Yes, misread the threshold bit, it does indeed refer to the '24 end'. One wonders what the underlying reasons are for all these 'u
111 Post contains links Zeke : I believe someone mentioned earlier that this is normally scheduled as a daytime flight. They may have had weather, equipment or schedule problems wh
112 Electech6299 : That was thought previously, but it was incorrect:
113 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : They're still not sure how deep the black boxes are: The ministry says that the work has been complicated by the “complex” geographical relief of
114 NAV20 : That checklist is fascinating, Zeke. As you say, from what we know of this situation, it raises red flags all over the place. It's axiomatic that ther
115 Zeke : Minimum of two pilots, in my opinion only, I believe those comments are more applicable to the Russian manufactured aircraft that also do the trip th
116 Post contains links NAV20 : Just found this, Zeke. The comments came from the head of Armavia. I think the question of an incomplete crew remains open:- "In comments on rumors th
117 Pihero : Zeke, Thanks for [posting the approach plates and finding the Notams. It's been a long time since I saw approaches this critical : basically no way of
118 OD720 : The names of the crew were made public shortly after the accident. The list included only a pilot and a F/O. The rest were cabin crew. No mention of
119 Starlionblue : This makes me a bit sad and dissapointed. The blamestorming has obviously already begun. Saying "he did not blame the air traffic controller" after i
120 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Cheers for your final comment, Pihero! The pleasure's mutual.   One correction to your summary - if they were approaching on the line of runway 06, i
121 OD720 : Since the statements are being made in either Russian or Armenian, the technical terms may be wrongly translated without any ill intentions. Or maybe
122 Post contains images NAV20 : Best I can see, OD720, he's talking about a crew of three people. Pilot, navigator, and 'technical specialist' (flight engineer?). Possibly the two-se
123 OD720 : I was watching Armenian TV (I get it here in Beirut) the day after the accident and they were reading the names of the crew with details of their car
124 David L : That's my take on it, too. I think he's just saying that everyone required to fly the aircraft, navigate, operate the radios, trouble-shoot, etc. was
125 NAV20 : "In comments on rumors that the crew was incomplete, the Armavia owner said the crew included both a navigator and flight engineer. "How can a plane t
126 David L : I just think it's a question of which is more likely:Someone asked why there was no navigator or flight engineer on board, he explained that they wer
127 NAV20 : David L, he didn't say that there were 'not absent'. He specifically said they were present. "....the crew included both a navigator and flight engine
128 Post contains images David L : I obviously wasn't as clear as I'd thought. Fair enough, if you think it's possible they normally operate with a separate navigator and flight engine
129 NAV20 : Fair enough, Davd L - but I'm not bothered as to whether they were carrying a navigator and/or flight engineer, that's their privilege. My worry is th
130 Pihero : I think that's quite unlikely as the aircraft is sold with a flight manual. If they want - and why shouldn't they ? - Airbus customer after-sale serv
131 David L : I'd need a lot more evidence to consider that. I still think the problem is simply that some journalists don't understand that pilots in a modern coc
132 Post contains images NAV20 : Agree Pihero - but not impossible. Agree also that there isn't a scintilla of evidence of the aeroplane malfunctioning. If there ever is, you'll hear
133 Post contains images David L : I don't doubt it!
134 Post contains images David L : Fair enough! But nothing I've seen on this incident so far leads me to believe they were one pilot short. Maybe they didn't have any "extras" but I'm
135 Jan Mogren : I do not know about Armavia, but on Armenian they actually used to be 4 in the cockpit. Seats for all of them, no problem. I can not find *anything*
136 Bond007 : Well, in the US at least, there is usually (or always) one probable cause, and one or more (most commonly 2) contributory causes. Pilot error is most
137 David L : Even in modern, two-crew aircraft? Or are you referring to older Soviet types?
138 Jan Mogren : Yes, A320. /JM
139 David L : Well, you live and learn! What roles did/do the other two perform?
140 Starlionblue : Guess here, but since a lot of Russian pilots don't speak (good or any) English a radio operator can deal with international airspace. I know this is
141 David L : Makes sense. I guess a radio operator doesn't need access to the systems, as in Pihero's Morse code example. I can't visualise the need for a dedicat
142 Jan Mogren : I flew with them for a week and I must say it is still quite unclear to me... On the flights I took, I had one of the jumpseats and therefor one of t
143 Starlionblue : Like a loadmaster? Maybe they don't trust the ground crews much at remote stops.
144 Jan Mogren : Sort of, or a combination of things? /JM
145 Pihero : So they were /are engineers who could check the airplane on ground and able to give a tech release ? In this case, if they were not qualifgied flight
146 MrMcCoy : GROAN.. come on guy, watch your tounge. Captains are tasked with making very difficult decisions in scenarios like this and we don't yet know enough
147 Post contains links NAV20 : Useful new resource here - seems to be updated daily or even hourly:- http://armenianow.com/?IID=1080&PHPS...D=e85d034f841f3c26ab0230d615ad8518 Includ
148 David L : I don't see that anywhere. Maybe I've missed something. They discussed it and apparently the captain decided he did have enough fuel to get back to Y
149 Starlionblue : Having enough fuel to reach the alternate (and do a few approaches there) at any point in the flight is basic airmanship. So that sounds reasonable.
150 David L : Obviously we don't know what the discussion involved. Maybe the captain expressed some doubts about the fuel quantity but I see no reason to assume t
151 NAV20 : Beats me why he didn't divert to a Georgian airport. There are some along there. But maybe the weather was just as bad. One thing - once he'd tracked
152 David L : Or maybe the facilities at Yerevan were more suitable, etc. But that kind of thing is factored into the fuel load. Yes, they used more fuel than they
153 NAV20 : Short answer is, we need more information, David L. The old rule used to be fuel to an alternate plus one hour, it's probably more complex now. Yereva
154 Post contains images David L : Which has really been my point!
155 Zeke : Note : Had to change IN to In to fool the parser
156 Post contains images Electech6299 : This seems to settle that: from NAV20's link above, in the same article ("Until we return...") I personally don't buy the fuel theory- it just doesn'
157 NAV20 : Sorry, Electech6299, misunderstanding (my fault). I'm not suggesting that the aircraft ran out of fuel. I'm suggesting that fuel shortage may have le
158 Electech6299 : Oh, probably my fault, mistaking the discussion with DavidL with the ones in the linked articles. Makes more sense now... Yup, read and studied it, I
159 Post contains images David L : Not a good idea!
160 Post contains links NAV20 : The Cockpit Voice Recorder has been recovered. Still trying for the FDR but prospects sound good. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/05/23/014
161 MarkHKG : Thank goodness they found it. The 30 day limit for the beacon's battery life is rapidly approaching...
162 Post contains links NAV20 : Found this the other day, too. Hearsay only, but it possibly supports my hunch about fuel shortage to an extent:- “The airbus did not fuel, to be mo
163 Saturn5 : I find very little credibility in this report - seems like written by a 15-year old. I don't think it will have anything to do with fuel quantity.[Ed
164 Post contains images David L : It may just be the quality of the translation. I can see that they may have eventually concluded that they didn't have sufficient fuel to return to Y
165 NAV20 : Agree that the 'quaint' phrasing is probably a matter of translation, DavidL. Possibly Armenian to Russian to English. Misunderstanding again. Sure, I
166 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : This thread is getting very slow at 165 threads - let's move it here: Armavia Black Box Salvage To Start Tomorrow (by BuyantUkhaa May 15 2006 in Civil
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