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Mesaba DTW Makes NW Look Bad 5-2-06  
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2505 times:

I flew into DTW from SDF on a Mesaba ARJ from and the plane blocked at Gate B4 at 3 55pm about 6 or 7 minutes early. The jetway was pulled up to the plane at 4 21pm. The pilot keep telling the pax he had radiod operations and "they had no one to pull the jetway to plane". FINALLY I noticed a man had come down to the controls of the jetway to move it to and open the forward loading door.
Perhaps someone at Mesaba DTW can tell me why it took 26 minutes to get someone to open the door and let 69 of us dummies off the airplane.

Comments heard.."I hate NW"
"NW can't get their act together"
"what wrong with these idiots"
"I hope they do close down..these people deserve it"
"Glad Im on American next week"
"I sent them an email about their crummy service
last month..see what good it did?"

There was a lot of anger in those voices, too.
Those people were not happy campers....
Me? I had 45 minutes yet left on my connection and I know the
airport well...no sweat here...I just kept my butt in 3 A and watched for the
jetway to move.

safe


If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8268 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

Gotta love how everyone automatically hates NW. Moron pax.


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

I never had a bad experience with Mesaba at DTW, but they did seem somewhat understaffed. Never caused any delays though, this seems a bit irregular.

User currently onlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 1):
Gotta love how everyone automatically hates NW. Moron pax

Did they book the flight as a NW flight? Was the plane in NW livery? Or do you just think they're moron's for being irritated at horrible service?


User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

Or what the public perceives as "horrible", even if we do'nt consider it that bad having experienced far worse.
-Mr. X



What now?
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22995 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Having had many experiences with XJ at DTW, I would say 10-15 minutes of wasted time is average, and 25 is certainly not out of the question. XJ does indeed make NW look bad. I'm sorry, but there is no way around it. I'm a NW elite, and I have never had a good experience on XJ. 9E is certainly a whole other animal.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineNLINK From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

XJ needs to be dumped in DTW. They run a horrid operation there.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8268 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 3):
Did they book the flight as a NW flight? Was the plane in NW livery? Or do you just think they're moron's for being irritated at horrible service?

They're idiots because sh*t happens and they've probably flown 20 times on NW flawlessly but this one time they turn around and act like assholes forgetting any and all good experiences. Happens all the time. 90% chance it wasn't horrible service, just something happened that had employees hung up elsewhere.

[Edited 2006-05-04 23:47:25]


This Website Censors Me
User currently onlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

I agree people are often impatient with service (not just airline service) even though they demand low cost. So, to some degree I understand where you're coming from, but at least one of these passengers clearly had not had flawless service in their opinion over the previous 20 flights:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Thread starter):
"I sent them an email about their crummy service
last month..see what good it did?"

I was just curious if you thought people were morons for holding NW accountable for their regional partner's (assuming that's the relationship here) service.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7590 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Cubsrule & others....
All ground operations for Pinnacle & Mesaba in DTW are handled by Mesaba.

While there is no excuse for this, Mesaba is not unique to this issue. I've had the same type of situation happen on many other airlines and at many other airports. That is the challenge of staffing a dynamic system. A couple of late flights at other gates and a bunch of early arrivals can strain the system. There are only so many people on duty at any one time, and people who are trained to operate the jetbridges. Mesaba is known to be understaffed in DTW, but there are several factors at play. When you pay people $8-$9 an hour with no benefits, obviously you can expect extremely high turnover. Plus, you have the Detroit attitude which is prevalent at many businesses not just unique to XJ & NW. Dropping Mesaba and having Pinnacle run the ground ops wouldn't change the problem one bit. You would have the same people just with a different name on their shirts and badges, and you'd be dealing with the same issues.

I have had this happen to me many of times, and this has been a problem forever in DTW. Same goes for the regional ramp for US in PHL and a number of other places. Complaining on a.net is not the place to make someone aware of this issue. All it will do is cause flamebait and generally stupid remarks and nonsense.


User currently offlineNeilalp From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1034 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
Plus, you have the Detroit attitude which is prevalent at many businesses

PSU, just wondered what you think the Detroit attitude is? I know you are from Detroit too, but I've never head that before. Unless you are talking about how we drive, I'm not sure what you are talking about.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8268 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 8):
I was just curious if you thought people were morons for holding NW accountable for their regional partner's (assuming that's the relationship here) service.

On that alone, no. NWA puts them on the routes, NWA's agents take care of the pax... so no, not for that reason.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22995 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
Dropping Mesaba and having Pinnacle run the ground ops wouldn't change the problem one bit. You would have the same people just with a different name on their shirts and badges, and you'd be dealing with the same issues.

I was actually referring to inflight service. I find that ground handling at NW hubs for Airlink is very variable. MEM is great. DTW sucks. MSP is in between.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBNAtraveler From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 410 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2166 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Interesting thread for me.

I fly NWA all of the time, primarily mainline. NW for some reason can't keep their tarmac free of carts, etc. At least every other flight we wait just short of the gate for ground ops to come by and move a bag cart, or when we finally get to the gate there is no one there. I've come to expect it, but never see the same thing when flying CO or DL. I can't speak as to how much this happens with XJ or 9E as most of my flights are NW mainline, but I just don't understand how this happens so much. Yes, I know they are probably understaffed, but understaffing doesn't mean leaving bag carts blocking gate areas on the tarmac!


User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2166 times:

I do my best to avoid any Mesaba flights into Detroit -- where possible, I avoid Pinnacle too because of the ridiculous situation at terminals B & C. Memphis (Pinnacle) is much friendlier, even though the A terminal is old and somewhat run down. Mesaba gate agents at DTW are noted for being unfriendly, uncooperative, and generally unpleasant. If this were new, I might be a bit sympathetic, but this has gone on for years. Remember the old G terminal at Detroit.

New question -- on Pinnacle flights, the flight attendant now says that the magazine holder on the seat in front of you is not to be used - what is going on there?


User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2146 times:
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PSU.DTW.SCE is, as always, perfectly correct. In MEM we call it the MEM attitude.

Mis-communications, shift start times, agents working flts at other gates, any number of things can contribute to this. I've seen it at every company (mainline too). What is key is what will happen as a followup by a supervisor IF their is one.

As has been noted here and in the press XJ is having a personnel problem with a lot of defections due the bankruptcy. Their wages make it hard enough to keep personnel. At MEM with Pinnacle I've seen almost a full shift no-show after a party, bad weather, heavy days. As for the followup I mentioned, when it costs so much to train, drug test, very very high wash out rates (Failure of drug tests, illiteracy, inability to take or understand orders) supervisors and management almost have to turn a blind eye to very questionable work habits. When the supervisor is in that position only because he/she volunteered to carry the radio the complaint usually stops there. A sense of responsibility didn't come with it and is harder and harder to find.

That's the conundrum management has in hiring in many jobs today. With high debt and operational payments their is not enough leftover to hire qualified employees.

I feel that the passenger is correct in blaming the major carrier for this kind of service. The majors have stressed that they want a "seemless" connection for the passenger among regional partners so who should a passenger "vent" to? The Major has a role in managing the contracted company. Money controls the strength of that management. And as wages come down from concessionary contracts that attitude will invade the major with the result that for the first time, the passenger will truly have "seemless" service connections.



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2015 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 8):
StuckInCA

Please recheck my post. I did not make the quote you high-lighted in your
post number 8.
thanks...  boggled  safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently onlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 16):
Please recheck my post. I did not make the quote you high-lighted in your
post number 8.

Wow. Sorry. I didn't even think about how that looks. Shall I suggest deletion? My apologies.


User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1927 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

XJ was once a very proud place. It was for the most part immune from the meddlings of NW. XJ's ground workers (at least the ones who stuck around for any amount of time) for the most part accepted the daily challenge of running a regional airline and took the successes awarded while flying into the face of adversity as a badge of honor. How times have changed. With the bankruptcy, the screws have been tightened more and more on everyone. Pride has been replaced with anguish. Ground workers not only are underpaid and have suffered pay cuts, but are in constant fear of losing those jobs. A perception (and perhaps a well-founded observation) that the management is trying to can anyone and everyone for just about any reason they can concoct is strong. Nobody can thrive, or really even function in such an environment.

Quoting Neilalp (Reply 10):

PSU, just wondered what you think the Detroit attitude is? I know you are from Detroit too, but I've never head that before. Unless you are talking about how we drive, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Well, Detroit is a very unionized city, where physical labor jobs often pay well. Granted with the recent problems in the auto industry this may all be radically changing, but for the most part people expect a high hourly wage and not to have to do much for it. XJ's ramp is a NON-union shop, where the starting wage is somewhere in the $8-9/hr range, and you will definately earn every penny of that $8-9/hr. Given this situation, quality workers are hard to come by. This is not a phenomenon limited to Detroit. The same applies in most other rust belt cities, as well as places on the east coast. Look at a place like EWR, or any other New York airport. Constant delays. Nobody works exceedingly fast or hard at any one of those airports.

Quoting M404 (Reply 15):
The Major has a role in managing the contracted company. Money controls the strength of that management. And as wages come down from concessionary contracts that attitude will invade the major with the result that for the first time, the passenger will truly have "seemless" service connections.

And since NW's total objective is to screw every last dime out of everything, this places an inordinate amount of stress on everyone tied to this.

If you want to see more about XJ's struggles with staff, read At Mesaba, Workers Head For The Exits

[Edited 2006-05-05 05:09:33]


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1894 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 18):
Well, Detroit is a very unionized city, where physical labor jobs often pay well. Granted with the recent problems in the auto industry this may all be radically changing, but for the most part people expect a high hourly wage and not to have to do much for it. XJ's ramp is a NON-union shop, where the starting wage is somewhere in the $8-9/hr range, and you will definately earn every penny of that $8-9/hr. Given this situation, quality workers are hard to come by. This is not a phenomenon limited to Detroit. The same applies in most other rust belt cities, as well as places on the east coast. Look at a place like EWR, or any other New York airport. Constant delays. Nobody works exceedingly fast or hard at any one of those airports.

That reminds me a lot of PSA and DL (even though it's non-union). Everybody wants to make $10-12 bucks an hour doing very little. It doesn't help when they make you work in insane conditions (thunderstorms-who cares--get out there). It's one of the many reasons I left DGS late last summer. Hopefully the service level can improve from these outsourcing companines or all the airlines are going to suffer. You can't expect quality service from minimum-wage people. It just won't happen.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7590 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1868 times:

Quoting Neilalp (Reply 10):
PSU, just wondered what you think the Detroit attitude is?

Acidradio & M404 pretty much sums it up there. I've worked at several businesses in the area, and there has been this attitude of entitlement and "I only do just enough to not get fired." The type of stuff that you and I probably never think of doing on the job, but somehow these GED-type people just don't get it. Same thing can be found anywhere when you are dealing with an unskilled workforce that doesn't value long-term employment. Its a somewhat of you get what you pay for. When there are/used to be jobs that paid a lot better in the area. Management is to blame to an extent when they don't offer an incentive for long-term employment too.

BNAtraveler -
There are several reasons why they may need to move ground equipment in the gate areas. There is only so much space available on the ramp to park ground equipment. When you have to push an aircraft from an adjacent gate you may temporarily park belt loaders, carts, & tugs in the adjacent gate. Sometimes there can be 4-5 bag runners rushing to a flight at an adjacent gate. At many airports there just isn't enough space for all the equipment all of the time. Even at DTW, which has some of the more spacious gates. Most of the time this maneuver only takes a minute, NW is one of the few airlines that even bothers to make this announcement, mostly so passengers don't jump out of their seats whenever the aircraft is within 100 yards of the terminal. Some gates and aircraft types require a certain number or marshallers to park the aircraft. Mesaba requires one wing walker for the Saabs, and Pinnacle requires 2 wing walkers to park the CRJ's. This is to prevent aircraft damage as the CRJ wing is only about 4 ft above the ground.

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 14):
I do my best to avoid any Mesaba flights into Detroit -- where possible, I avoid Pinnacle too because of the ridiculous situation at terminals B & C.

I'm not really sure what rediculous situation you are speaking about. B&C in DTW offers some of the best regional gates of any airport in the country. 95% of the time, everything works pretty well. No better or worse than most other places. Have you seen United Express's operation at ORD or IAD???? talk about a CF!

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 14):
New question -- on Pinnacle flights, the flight attendant now says that the magazine holder on the seat in front of you is not to be used - what is going on there?

The FA announcement states that the seatback holder is not to be used to store laptop computers. I really do not know the justification behind this announcement, but I'm sure it is safety relate.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

XJ sucks so bad in dtw and msp. It's never if we're gonna wait for rampers, gate agents, the gate itself.. its how long.

I love going into MEM- gate is always open, rampers are always waiting, and they get ground power immediately. Unless it's hot or we have to have the APU for operational purposes, I never have to use it there.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7590 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1839 times:

DTW & MSP are a completely different beast than MEM.

MEM operates 3 bank flight banks a day and then the airport is completely dead in between. Thus, operational disruptions do not compound like in DTW or MSP which operate with about 9 flight banks. The gate is always open since, its been open for about 3-4 hours when the aircraft left from before.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1839 times:

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 14):
Mesaba gate agents at DTW are noted for being unfriendly, uncooperative, and generally unpleasant. If this were new, I might be a bit sympathetic, but this has gone on for years. Remember the old G terminal at Detroit.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Thinking back on it, all of my truly horrid experiences with NW have been XJ-operated flights/XJ staff at DTW (the flights themeslves haven't been unplesant)

I have first hand stories about how they're rude, how they've lied (or significantly misrepresented the truth)[1], how providing customer service[2] is somewhere around priority 650 (after "winding up in a coma" and "dieing"), how they really don't give a damn -- and make that fact well known.

While I have no intentions of giving DL any further business, I would love to be able to say the same about XJ solely on the basis of how incompetent they are at DTW. (Unfourtinately, XJ and 9E are the only choices into PLN -- and the handling on the PLN end has never been anything but superb).

Lincoln

[1] My favorite, but by no means only example: I hear the call over the agent's radio "Uh, the captain for xxxx at security, but he, uh, forgot his ID..." the PA announcement from that agent was "Due to air traffic control delays, flight xxxx will be delayed...."

[2] Like the time the one agent out if three in the area who was assisting passengers (yes, the others could have been on break or whatever) has built up a line of about 30 people. And then just walks away- no "I'll be right back", she just leaves-and no one else services the line. 20 minutes later she returns and picks up with the next person in line like nothing happened. Not even so much as a "Thanks for waiting"



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 13):
NW for some reason can't keep their tarmac free of carts, etc. At least every other flight we wait just short of the gate for ground ops to come by and move a bag cart, or when we finally get to the gate there is no one there.

Ah, brings to mind the incident at LAS last Sunday...some NW carts were rolling around on the ramp in the dark, made their way onto a taxiway just as a Mesa HPX CR9 was rolling to departure. The left wing was wrecked and from what I hear, the aircraft will be out of service until June 30 at the earliest. Yes, that was TAXIWAY, not ramp.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f193/groundzero55/IMG_2516_5.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f193/groundzero55/IMG_2535_9.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f193/groundzero55/IMG_2517_6.jpg


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7590 posts, RR: 27
Reply 25, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

Must be rip on NW/XJ/DTW day.....

I could start a thread on every airline and every airport just about every other day to.....Like the time when..... and that other time when....

I'm done.


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