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B777 Engine Suppliers  
User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

As of April 2006 562 B777s have been produced. I have been browsing the production stats and the three manufacturers are closer than what everybody may think.

Reading all the posts on this forum I was under the impression RR was in front PW was all but finished and GE was somewhere in the middle. Seeing as the production upto an including #600 I have done some stats on eack block of 100 T7s

Line#_____GE___________PW___________ RR
1-100........23....23%.........49.....49%........28.....28%
100-200.....44....33.5%......29.....39%........27.....27.5%
200-300.....27....31.3%......26.....34.7%.....47.....34%
300-400.....20....28.5%......24.....32%........56.....39.5%
400-500.....46....32%.........26.....31%........28.....37.2%
500-600.....68....38%.........12.....27.7%......20.....34.3%
Total:_____228__38%_____166___27.7%___206___34.3%

If you can follow the numbers then the figures under the manufacturers initials are the number of aircraft equipped with that manufacturers engine in any given block. The numbers to the right of that are the maufacturers % of that particular block and all blocks preceeding that. From that you can see GE had 23 sales in the 1st Hundred and 44 in the 2nd hundred which at 67 sales is a approximately a 1/3 of 200 (33.5%)

What suprised me is that PW were not as bad as I thought at 27.7 (166). They had a great first year with all those UA birds.

RR were very strong in the middle with all the AA BA(change to Trent) and SQ Birds. RR have been the most consistent.

GE obviously were at their lowest when RR were at their strongest in the 300 to 400 block (Sep 00 to Apr 02) but recovered in the 400-500 block as the sales of C market 110B and 115B came in.

When the GE exclusitivity on GE power for 77W and 777LR was first announced I too was skeptical that this move would hurt the sales. Especially given that most of the likely customers had large fleets of RR Trent powered 777s name EK,SQ and CX. However since then those three airlines have ordered 109 GE powered B777s between them (EK 54 77W 12 LR 8 777F, SQ 19 77W and CX 16 77W.) It is also interesting to note that there was never a GE powered 773 until the first AF77W.

I do wonder how B777 sales would have been without the success of 77W/LR. They would have slowed somewhat and RR would have easily been the top seller.

Interesting to note that prior to the last block 500-600 the lowest of any was a 20 to both GE and RR although PW beat it with a 12 in the current block.

Food for thought.... twocents 

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

I read this with amusement having done exactly the same calculation myself some time ago (and maintained it subsequently).  bigthumbsup 

In terms of deliveries, PW were in the lead until early 2000. RR drew level at line number 274 (when both PW and RR had 91 deliveries each) and drew ahead with l/n 275.

RR still have the lead in deliveries but will lose it shortly. GE will draw level with RR at line number 572 (210 each) and draw ahead with 573. Thereafter, GE will run away with it.

GE caught up with PW at l/n 466 - the first -300ER for Air France.

PW still have about 18 to deliver (Asiana, Korean, ANA, JAL).
RR still have about 26 to deliver (El Al, Kenya, Thai, ANZ, Cathay) but 12 of these are for AA (7) and DL (5) and there must be a doubt as to whether these will ever be taken.

So, without any significant further orders, PW will top out at about 170 and RR may reach 224.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2096 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
I read this with amusement having done exactly the same calculation myself some time ago (and maintained it subsequently).

PM thanks for the extra analysis. I wish you had posted it but now its done it won't take much to maintain...

Want to do one for A330??? 

[Edited 2006-05-05 14:04:04]

User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 2):
Want to do one for A300???

No, but I've done it for the A330!  Smile (And I'm getting in at the start of the 787 and A380.) What fun.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2071 times:

With the aid of the data sort functions within Excel RR are still on top with 207 to 203 to GE. They will draw even at 210 each in June.

The 210th RR will be Air New Zealand 777-200ER Trent 892 ZK-OKF and the 210th GE will be GE90-115B powered AF 777-300ER F-GSQP.

For the record Lightsaber a PW powered Japan Airlines 200Er is scheduled to be between the NZ and AF birds

 bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2060 times:

PM sorry edited it for A330 before whilst you were posting. The A300 would be like the 767 only PW/GE (excepting BAs and 3 Chinese RR powered 767s)

I suspect RR would top the A330 PW and GE close 2nd and 3rd????


User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 5):
I suspect RR would top the A330 PW and GE close 2nd and 3rd????

Going by deliveries, RR have 167, PW 127 and GE 113.

RR still have 56 to deliver, PW have 34 and GE have 38.

In percentage terms RR have 42% of orders, PW 29% and 27%.

It's about to change, of course, but who would have predicted a decade ago that RR would be in the lead on both the 777 and A330?!


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

PM my apologies the end totals should be PW 156 and RR 216 and GE 228 at 600 T7s delivered.

In the 401-500 Block wrongly gave PW 26 instead of 16 and RR 28 instead of 38.

The correct figures are:

Line#_____GE___________PW___________ RR
1-100........23....23%.........49.....49%........28.....28%
100-200.....44....33.5%......29.....39%........27.....27.5%
200-300.....27....31.3%......26.....34.7%.....47.....34%
300-400.....20....28.5%......24.....32%........56.....39.5%
400-500.....46....32%.........16.....31%........38.....37.2%
500-600.....68....38%.........12.....27.7%......20.....34.3%
Total:_____228__38%_____156___26 %___216___36%

This leaves GE and RR very close after 600 T7s. I would imagine GE will get 75% of line # 601-700


User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2009 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 7):
the end totals should be PW 156 and RR 216 and GE 228 at 600 T7s delivered.

I make it 154, 216 and 230.  confused 

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 4):
The 210th RR will be Air New Zealand 777-200ER Trent 892 ZK-OKF and the 210th GE will be GE90-115B powered AF 777-300ER F-GSQP.

ZK-OKF should be the 211th RR plane. I think the imminent Cathay -300 (line number 567 B-BNQ) will be the 210th. Similary, F-GSQP should be the 211th with GE. The 210th, I think, will be B-16703 for EVA (l/n 572).

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 4):
a PW powered Japan Airlines 200Er is scheduled to be between the NZ and AF birds

Oops! JAL's 777-200ERs have GE. Only their -200s and -300s have PW. The plane you're thinking of is l/n 574: a PW -200ER for ANA.


User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1986 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 7):
I would imagine GE will get 75% of line # 601-700

More like 90%+. Almost all orders from now on will be for the -200LR, -200F, -300ER. I wouldn't take for granted either PW or RR getting any new orders - certainly they can hardly hope to get any new customers.

In 2005 PW got no orders. RR got three: two follow-ons for El Al and one for Kenya Airways. (Whereas GE sold 152 777s last year: a 98% market share!)

In 2004 PW got no orders. RR got twelve. Cathay ordered two more -300s, Thai ordered their first -200ERs and Air New Zealand became a new customer. (GE sold 30 in 2004.)

RR's previous new customer was Kenya Airways in March 2002.

PW's last new customer was Vietnam Airlines in January 2002.

PW's last order was for nine -200ERs from Korean in December 2003.

So, over the past two calendar years GE have sold 182 777s (92%), RR have sold 15 (8%) and PW have sold 0. It's hard to see that pattern changing.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

PM thanks for the analysis. It would seem the market is going towards either exclusive deals as in A345/6 RR 77W/LR GE or two makes such as A380 RR/ EA GP7200 or A350/787 RR/GEnx.

PW involvement will aside from a few 744F/A330 or 777 be down to partnerships with IAE 2500s or EA on the A380s.

This is unbelievable given in 1970 nearly all 707, all 727, all 737, all 747 nearly all DC8 and all DC 9 had pratt and Whitney engines.

How times change!!!!


User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 10):
This is unbelievable given in 1970 nearly all 707, all 727, all 737, all 747 nearly all DC8 and all DC 9 had pratt and Whitney engines.

I've quoted elsewhere that last year Boeing sold 457 widebodies. Engines have not been chosen for 100 (94 787s and 6 747s). Where engines were chosen, GE gained 318 (70%) and PW just 3 (0.7%). In other words GE outsold PW by 100 to 1 on Boeing widebodies last year.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 10):
How times change!!!!


 checkmark 


User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1227 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1707 times:

What will happen to Pratt and Whitney? I know they will continue to receive significant business from the US governemtn as they are one of the primary engine suppliers for military fighters, cargo aircraft, etc., but at this point it looks like their run in the airline business is all but over.

I amvery curious to see the breakdown for the A330 as it was the only modern airliner I could really think of that still received a fairly significant number of Pratt and Whitney powered orders. I think that is very odd, as Pratt and Whitney is the traditional American engine manufacturer, and Airbus is the largest European producer of aircraft, while Rolls Royce sells engines like crazy on boeing aircraft, the largest US producer.

Why wasn't Pratt and Whitney even offered the opportunity to compete in the A350/ B787 game? I know they are just behind the times when it comes to engine technology, but how would it hurt the manufacturers if they offered it, even if they didn't sell many? Well, I suppose as soon as the A330 line is replaced by the A350, the 767 and 777 line is replaced by the 787, the 747-8 replaces the 744, and with the 757 out of production, we can say bye bye to Pratt and Whitney in the commercial aircraft engine production business.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1629 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12):
I amvery curious to see the breakdown for the A330

See below:

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
In percentage terms RR have 42% of orders, PW 29% and 27%.



Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12):
Why wasn't Pratt and Whitney even offered the opportunity to compete in the A350/ B787 game?

PW did compete. But they lost.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12):
I know they are just behind the times when it comes to engine technology

I'm not sure that's true.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12):
we can say bye bye to Pratt and Whitney in the commercial aircraft engine production business.

Don't forget that they have a 32.5% stake of IAE and a 50% stake of the Engine Alliance. They also have the PW6000 on the A318. They've missed some important boats in civil aviation recently but they're not necessarily out of the race forever. They certainly claim to be still competing.


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