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Aeroflot Has Chosen The A350 Over The 787?  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12111 times:

http://www.aerospacemedia.com/AFP/pr....asp?xml=060506070156.r1fyp4au.xml

The last episode of the Aeroflot saga.
As most of you , i am waiting for an official announcement.

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12037 times:

The link is Russian:

Vedomosti article

According to the article in Vedomosti, SU's board of directors has chosen Airbus, already in the end of April. US is excessively tough in negotiations for Russia joining WTO, and this 'behaviour' is to be blamed, says the article. In addition, Airbus offered good discount for A350s and EADS has a lot of joint projects together with Russian aerospace industry.
But, as all interviewed in the article say - nothing is final yet.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12025 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
This order would bring the count well over 200, excluding the likely 15 A350's for Air madrid which are up in the air.

I thought the NM order was already an LOI, or is it still just an MOU?

Anyway, you never know with SU. One says they're going for the A350, the others say 787, Boeing and Airbus will try to win SU over with some sweet deals, though I believe Boeing might have the upper hand, because they can get SU an additional deal on those MD-11Fs they were looking for. But again, you never know. SU is also state owned, so the order might become also something of a political thing for the Russian government.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4187 posts, RR: 89
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11983 times:
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Here's the first story

By Lyuba Pronina
May 6 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS beat rival Boeing Co. in a $3 billion tender to supply as many as 34 jets to Russia's OAO Aeroflot, Vedomosti said, citing an unidentified Kremlin official.

State-run Aeroflot picked Airbus's A350 over Chicago-based Boeing's 787 Dreamliner at a board meeting April 27, the newspaper said. Aeroflot is buying 22 planes with an option to buy another 12, a package valued at $3 billion.

Russia's inability to get the U.S. to agree to its accession to the World Trade Organization played a role in the decision, the Kremlin official told Vedomosti.


[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com ]

Next story carried are headlines as follows, direct from Deputy CEO,

*AEROFLOT SAYS AIRBUS, BOEING DECISION `WILL BE POLITICAL'
*AEROFLOT DEPUTY CEO KOSHLYAKOV SPEKAING BY TELEPHONE
*AEROFLOT SAYS BOEING, AIRBUS FINAL VOTE TO BE AFTER JUNE 17
*AEROFLOT SAYS SHAREHOLDERS TO VOTE ON AIRBUS, BOEING OFFERS
*AEROFLOT DENIES REPORT ON AIRBUS WINNING TENDER

With also the following statement;

Aeroflot would have named the winner this week, though those plans were put on hold after an Armenian airline Airbus crashed into the Black Sea on May 3, killing all 113 people on board, Vedomosti said, citing the official.

Make of it what you will but I can confirm, but I have no link, that a decision was indeed made last week and that the above statement prevented an official announcement from being made.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3508 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11903 times:

We've had several threads with links like this already. Screw the order..at this point, I'm not going to believe it until I see the plane!


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11885 times:

This looks like Putin putting pressure on the US negotiators regarding WTO accession. I don't read anything else into it. We'll have to wait to see what SU order.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6939 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11848 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
This order would bring the count well over 200

I think it would be prudent to stick to the firm orders on the Airbus website. They currently list 100 so this order (if it happens) would take them to 122. (Let's not count Qatar, GECAS, or any others until the order has been signed.)


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11825 times:

This Aeroflot order is starting to become very boring. Talk about politically motivated.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6939 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11814 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 4):
*AEROFLOT SAYS AIRBUS, BOEING DECISION `WILL BE POLITICAL'

What impact might this have on the engine selection?

Buy RR as well as Airbus to make sure that Washington gets the message?
Buy GE on Airbus to keep both sides (a little) happy?

Remember that Moscow is unhappy with the UK right now because of opposition to the purchase of Centrica. They might snub RR as a punishment.

Who knows?!


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11657 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
I think it would be prudent to stick to the firm orders on the Airbus website. They currently list 100 so this order (if it happens) would take them to 122. (Let's not count Qatar, GECAS, or any others until the order has been signed.)

If you'd like to count firm orders only, that's up to you. Meanwhile, I count both firm and commitments, announced by Airbus. Which at this stage excludes the Air Madrid order and those of Aeroflot.



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User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11619 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):

If you'd like to count firm orders only, that's up to you. Meanwhile, I count both firm and commitments, announced by Airbus. Which at this stage excludes the Air Madrid order and those of Aeroflot.

Count however you wish, but if you count orders and commitments, don't report that number as "orders" as you did in Reply 1. Report it as "orders and commitments." If I were a moderator, I would delete Reply 1 for being false.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4187 posts, RR: 89
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11586 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
If you'd like to count firm orders only, that's up to you. Meanwhile, I count both firm and commitments, announced by Airbus. Which at this stage excludes the Air Madrid order and those of Aeroflot.

Manni I, respectfully, disagree. The ultimate arbiter as to what constitutes a firm order, is what is listed on the Airbus and Boeing order pages. Refer to QRs commitment for 20 x 777s, LoI renounced, RFP re-opened, it means diddley squat. Is that the sort of commitment you refer to when you say you count commitments? Airbus have 100 firm A350 orders. Simple as that.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11556 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 12):
The ultimate arbiter as to what constitutes a firm order, is what is listed on the Airbus and Boeing order pages. Refer to QRs commitment for 20 x 777s, LoI renounced, RFP re-opened, it means diddley squat. Is that the sort of commitment you refer to when you say you count commitments? Airbus have 100 firm A350 orders. Simple as that.

Unfortunately, this "commitments" nonsense which Baseler and Leahy have popularized looks like it's here to stay. Sad


User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11517 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
This order would bring the count well over 200, excluding the likely 15 A350's for Air madrid which are up in the air.

 boggled 


http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/business/14513717.htm

Quote:


Posted on Sat, May. 06, 2006email thisprint this
Airbus A350 under review amid slow sales
BY ANDREA ROTHMAN
Bloomberg News Service

As of April, Airbus has won 184 commitments for the A350, about 100 of them firm orders, compared with 350 firm orders for Boeing's 787.


Halibut


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4187 posts, RR: 89
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11453 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 13):
Unfortunately, this "commitments" nonsense which Baseler and Leahy have popularized looks like it's here to stay.

Thank you Leelaw though in this case, you can't teach an old "orders junkie" new tricks  Wink

Commitments only really came into play last year as Mr Leahy and Co back peddled over their 200 A350 by year end statements mockingly made in reference to Boeing's errors of 2004.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11442 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 12):

Manni I, respectfully, disagree. The ultimate arbiter as to what constitutes a firm order, is what is listed on the Airbus and Boeing order pages

Not sure with what you disagree, but let it be clear that I did not say that commitments equal firm orders.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
If I were a moderator, I would delete Reply 1 for being false.

 Yeah sure

Quoting Halibut (Reply 14):

As of April, Airbus has won 184 commitments for the A350, about 100 of them firm orders,

What exactely is your point Halibut? The article you quoted confirms what I said, minus the 22 for Aeroflot.



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User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4187 posts, RR: 89
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11372 times:
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Quoting Manni (Reply 15):
Not sure with what you disagree, but let it be clear that I did not say that commitments equal firm orders.

Manni, again, with respect, re-read my post. commitments mean nothing until the deal is signed and "on the books". I also gave you and example of a commitment which no longer exists. That is where I disagree sir. Just how many of those commitments will turn into firm orders?

As the saying goes, "don't count your chickens before they hatch"  Smile

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11353 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 16):
Just how many of those commitments will turn into firm orders?

That's easy. Some, but not all.

It's not a problem if someone wants to count orders + commitments, so long as they are clearly represented as "orders + commitments" and not misrepresented as "orders."


User currently offlineSU From Russia, joined Apr 2004, 360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11328 times:

This has been predicted begining of this year. US/Russia relationship is pretty hard now I am not surprised SU went with Airbus, plus if I am not mistaken Airbus is willing to provid planes earlier then Boing.


"Life is too short to take it serious..."
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4187 posts, RR: 89
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11290 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
That's easy. Some, but not all

Fair point and I would concur.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
It's not a problem if someone wants to count orders + commitments, so long as they are clearly represented as "orders + commitments" and not misrepresented as "orders."

Therein lies my point sir. The example of a useless commitment was QR. Well, we've seen just how good their word is on a commitment for 20 x 777s. Let's see how good their commitment to 60 A350s is now given that ILFC, SQ, OS, GECAS and EK have publicly rebuked the current model. If QR are listening to whom their main competitors are saying, I 'd say there's are good chance that their commitment for 60, to be ultimately firm, could be under serious consideration for amendement. QR, have after all, set the benchmark this year as to what constitutes a commitment

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11290 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 16):
commitments mean nothing

To say they mean nothing is exadurating. Commitments are generally a reliable way to judge haw a plane is selling after firm orders. Yes, some comitments dont masterialise but the vast majority do. If commitments meant nothing, LOIs or MOUs would not be used, and orders would be signed from day 1.


Back on the article, how reliable is the agency? Im as skepticle as ever about SU, i'll cound this as a given when it appears on the manufacturers website.


User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11290 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 15):
What exactely is your point Halibut? The article you quoted confirms what I said, minus the 22 for Aeroflot.


 talktothehand  Stop - Wrong !!!

Manni,
You were attempting to add 22 possible firm orders to Airbus's commitments . Trying to insinuate that Airbus has 200 + firm orders , which is not the case at all .



Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):
Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
This order would bring the count well over 200, excluding the likely 15 A350's for Air madrid which are up in the air.



Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):


Posted on Sat, May. 06, 2006email thisprint this
Airbus A350 under review amid slow sales
BY ANDREA ROTHMAN
Bloomberg News Service

As of April, Airbus has won 184 commitments for the A350, about 100 of them firm orders, compared with 350 firm orders for Boeing's 787.

It would have been more accurate to have said : Airbus now has over 120 firm orders . Your vein attempt to add Firm orders to commitments does not fool me .

Nice try !  wink 


Halibut


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11234 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 21):
Manni,
You were attempting to add 22 possible firm orders to Airbus's commitments . Trying to insinuate that Airbus has 200 + firm orders , which is not the case at all .

It's interesting, but no surprise to see how Zveda's interpretation of my first reply has succes by people such as you.

And I will leave it at that.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 21):
Your vein attempt to add Firm orders to commitments does not fool me .

That's a pitty I should have add the 'possible firm orders' and while I'm at it, the 'possible commitments too.  Yeah sure

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
misrepresented as "orders."

Again, no surprises here. Tell me Zvezda.. Would you delete your post if you were a moderator for your false accusation?  Silly



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User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4187 posts, RR: 89
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11218 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting EI321 (Reply 20):
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 16):
commitments mean nothing

To say they mean nothing is exadurating.

Please do not quote me out of context sir;

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 16):
commitments mean nothing until the deal is signed and "on the books".

To be even handed, Primaris remind you of someone whom have a commitment? Their first 738 was suppossed to be delivered last year around November, I think their commitment for the 787 is exactly that, the slots will go elsewhere and the commitment will cease to exist, never having seen firm status just as QR stand on the 777 Series as of this day.

Back OT. Interesting number for SU. 34 of which 22 will be firm plus 12 options. I assume they increased this number due to the mergers taking place?

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6939 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11160 times:

Any word on the mix of models: A350-800/-900s? If not, any guesses?

25 Post contains images Halibut : Hi Manni, I have two questions for you : How many Firm orders does Airbus have , as of April 2006 , for the A350 ??? How many commitments does Airbus
26 Post contains links and images Leelaw : Here's an excerpt from the Airbus Press Release announcing the launch of the A350: AIRBUS A350 FIRM ORDER COMMITMENTS Air Europa 10 Alafco 12 CIT 5 G
27 PM : Rather weaselly use of language, I'd say. What it means is: "a firm commitment to order". In other words, it's the "commitment" that's "firm", not th
28 Post contains images Lumberton : "it all depends on what your definition of is is"? [Edited 2006-05-06 15:44:22]
29 Zvezda : It's disappointing (and, I agree, ultimately self-defeating) when Airbus are so weaselly. I find it even more disappointing when otherwise intelligen
30 Thorben : My guess is: They went for Airbus when EADS made that A320 freighter deal with that Russian company. Now Airbus wants to save the announcement for the
31 Keesje : Maybe the biggest selling point of the A350 played a role again: A330s next year..
32 Manni : I'm sure you'll be able to answer these questions yourself, after a couple minutes of searching on the net. However, here's my question to you... Wha
33 Jacobin777 : Part of the B787 versus A350 deal was contigent on the fact if they would be able to get some MD-11 freighters.. Boeing will be able to supply SU with
34 Post contains images Halibut : You're dodging my question in an attempt "not" to admit the true order/commitments numbers . Instead of answering a simple question , you continue to
35 Post contains images Astuteman : That's possible, but it shouldn't worry us. Because.... These are the only numbers that really matter:- those that are committed to the ORDERS pages
36 Post contains links FCKC : http://fr.rian.ru/business/20060506/47544745.html Seems as it is more and more official. As SU want the plane not before 2014 , there is no problem fo
37 Post contains images Manni : Keep telling that yourself. I'm not playing your silly games. The answers to your questions are widely available. Never used that term, your bias has
38 Jacobin777 : thanks for the link FCKC if this is correct..which it might be, what happened to all the Airbus cheerleaders (where's Thorben) who say that Boeing wi
39 Post contains images Halibut : Good grief Manni, If you were able to answer my simple question regarding the A350 order/commitments , you could have rectified this situation . Howev
40 Post contains links Clickhappy : Yahoo has the story now http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060506...ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA
41 Zvezda : How do you reconcile that assertion with Airbus' profitability?
42 JayinKitsap : Press Release May 1, 2012 Aeroflot announced today that the board has made a decision to purchase 22 A350 instead of the Boeing 787. Press Release May
43 CWFan : You know, the whole "sending a message to Washington" aspect of the 350 vs 787 story leaves me a little sick. Fine, Aeroflot, you want to award your p
44 Post contains images 11Bravo : Agreed; I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not even sure I'd want them as a customer. I don't know if it's just the Russian Press or SU itself, but t
45 Post contains images OlegShv : Absolutely agree.
46 Dallasnewark : Aeroflot will keep flip flopping depending on the politics. We did not hear the last of that
47 Post contains links Lumberton : Bloomberg (Germany) reports that the order is still "in play".... Aeroflot Says $3 Billion Plane Decision `Political' (Update2) So this annoying issue
48 Sevenforeseven : Why can not any of you people give credit to Airbus, perhaps they do have a superiror product.
49 Post contains images Zvezda : I give credit to Airbus for offering an A350 that is superior to the B767. Credit where credit is due. I also prefer the A320 to the B737, though I c
50 Jacobin777 : Are you really calling the A350 "superiour" over the B787??? you sure?
51 SEAPlane10 : Because in this case it really doesn't appear warranted.
52 Trex8 : that depends on the acquistion price!!!no doubt the cost of running them favors the 787 unless you happen to have a small airline and a few Airbi alr
53 Dallasnewark : I think he meant 767
54 Dallasnewark : Are you that naive? If Bush will do Putin a favor, such as close his eyes to what's going on in Chechnya for a few months or something similar, the o
55 Jacobin777 : that's what I thought at first, but this thread is about the B787 versus A350.....
56 Halibut : So much for the Old All New A350 ! Halibut
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