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PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny  
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19777 times:

Arrests after air upgrade mutiny

A group of irate economy air passengers were arrested after storming the first class cabin of an international flight in mid-air, it has been revealed.

The pilot of the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) jet radioed ahead after 14 people upgraded themselves.

Full article at BBC NEWS Online (Manchester)


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19748 times:

When the plane landed, 14 of the passengers were arrested on suspicion of endangering an aircraft in flight.

How the f... can you "endanger an aircraft in flight" when you move from the economy to the first class?

I don't think it is right what they did, but charges should be kept real.


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19708 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
How the f... can you "endanger an aircraft in flight" when you move from the economy to the first class?

If you "upgrade" yourself from Economy-to First Class; you may as well have the capability to "upgrade" yourself to the cockpit. Just a thought....


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3958 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19708 times:

Any idea what flight # this was? There was no fllght# mentioned in the story. Could it have possibly been 719 enroute to IAH? I see that it was a 742 which is what IAH sees on Friday.

Just curious,

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19683 times:

Thorben, it's probably the only charge the law allows.  Smile Can't very well charge people with 'disturbing the peace' if they're not even in the country concerned at the time. In any case they will have diverted the crew from their proper duties, and very possibly the captain will have had to get involved.

I'd imagine that they'll just appear in court Monday and get themselves 'bound over'.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19661 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 2):
If you "upgrade" yourself from Economy-to First Class; you may as well have the capability to "upgrade" yourself to the cockpit. Just a thought....

First class is separated by a curtain, the cockpit by a steel door.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Thorben, it's probably the only charge the law allows. Can't very well charge people with 'disturbing the peace' if they're not even in the country concerned at the time. In any case they will have diverted the crew from their proper duties, and very possibly the captain will have had to get involved.

I'd imagine that they'll just appear in court Monday and get themselves 'bound over'.

OK, law is not my thing, especially not foreign laws. But is there any law like when you ride the tube without a ticket that would apply to this case here? Getting a service without paying for it?

In addition, which law has to be applied here? Pakistani law, I would say, since it is a Pakistani registered airplane. And did those things happen in Britisch airspace? If not, where is the legal basis to charge them in Britain?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19619 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
In addition, which law has to be applied here?

Scratching my head now - I think aeroplanes in flight are governed by an international convention (Hague Convention?). Anyway, the legal situation is printed on the back of any international air ticket, haven't got one handy at the moment.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19561 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
Scratching my head now - I think aeroplanes in flight are governed by an international convention (Hague Convention?). Anyway, the legal situation is printed on the back of any international air ticket, haven't got one handy at the moment.

I think it is the law of the country the plane is registered at. Isn't it like that with ships? A lot of ships are registered in Liberia, IIRC. In order to have Liberian laws applied in case of damages.


User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19510 times:

First a posting about a slob in C class with bare feet. Now this on PIA

You guys are making Delta service and clientele look better and better by the day.



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineAMS From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19486 times:

This happens more then people would think. Last year when I flew from Atlanta to Tokyo Narita on DL , and was seated in Business Elite; a person came and sat next to me. He told me that he actually had a seat in economy class. but was trying to get a seat 'upfront'. just before take off the DL flight attandant noticed that he was not supposed to sit there and was asked for him to move to his original seat. 2 weeks later the same situation happened , so I think it happens a lot.

Regards,
AMS


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19430 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
First class is separated by a curtain, the cockpit by a steel door.

On all commercial airplanes?


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19395 times:

As this was a LONG flight, no wonder people would want to move into the biz/first class seats. Perhaps if they had a program to upgrade selected frequent flyers, at the check in or gate when they have a large number of those seats available, then you may have prevented this kind of problem. It would also give PIA some good public relations with those lucky pax. You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height.

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19379 times:

My memory's better than I thought, Thorben!  Smile

Hague Convention 1971 (popularly known as the 'Hijacking Convention'):-

"THE STATES PARTIES to this Convention,

"CONSIDERING that unlawful acts of seizure or exercise of control of aircraft in flight jeopardize the safety of persons and property, seriously affect the operation of air services, and undermine the confidence of the peoples of the world in the safety of civil aviation;"


Actually, they might cop more than a slap on the wrist:-

"Each Contracting State undertakes to make the offence punishable by severe penalties."

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/hague1970.html



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4993 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19342 times:

It would appear that upgrading yourself is not a huge law broken, if any.

However, not abiding by the crew's request to return to your seat, is in fact a strict law broken. Whether or not you agree with a crew's request is irrelevant, if they ask you to do something, it is expected that you will.

Although I don't think it is the case here, it is not that far a stretch to make this into a security issue, with close access to the cockpit as an aim.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 19316 times:

To put it simply; if there'd been any 'sky-marshals' on there those idiots might have got themselves (or someone else) shot.


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineRaffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19294 times:

Ii think it's disgraceful that passengers who book and pay for an economy service, feel that they can just stroll, or in this case, "storm" their way into a Business class cabin and expect a level of service they haven't paid for.

It's as good as going into a shop and taking something, walking out and not paying.

If they wanted the comforts of a Business class seat- then they should be expected to PAY for it too.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineDeaphen From India, joined Jul 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19256 times:

I dont think its a problem of merely upgrading themselves. I am from India, hence i speak for the kind of mentality we have here. I was on a similar Spice Jet flight to Goa from DEL and we were delayed by 6 hours then sat in the plane for another 2. By the time we took off, all the passengers were absolutely irate and were actually extremely rude to the F/A's. Infact a few started threatening them also. See the thing is, most of the people flying are goign to their destination for a specific purpose and the fulfillment of that purpose costs them ALOT if not ALL of their savings. Note here i am talking only about this area of the world. Hence, people feel doubly entitled to do whatever the f they want.

I am pretty sure the peopel upgrading themselves were probably flying for the first or second time and are not attuned to the spirit and attitude onboard. Even though there are no set guide lines, we all knwo there are certain ethics and morals involved.

And i am pretty sure, though only speculation, that they would have caused a huge hue and cry while going to First and then refusing to leave after that. I am sure they were agressive, maybe not in their physical behaviour but in their expression. And we all also know that even the slightest ordeal kind of causes panic in a plane at 35,000 feet!

Anyways, just hope you see it from my point of view.

regards
nitin



I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19167 times:

If I read that correctly they actually got into First class while the plane was still on the ground at Islamabad. (?)

There would be little need to upgrade only hours from touch down.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19103 times:

My mom is flying PK ORD-MAN-KHI next Saturday (777-200ER)....she' spent a heck of a lot of money to fly in business class...why should other's just get a "free" ride because they don't like what is happening..? If they don't like the fact PK was delayed by four hours for whatever reason, they should take their business (no pun intended) to some other carrier....

Abide by the rules...as simple as that...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 18995 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 10):
On all commercial airplanes?

I don't know about all, but more and more I'd say.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
My memory's better than I thought, Thorben!

Hague Convention 1971 (popularly known as the 'Hijacking Convention'):-

"THE STATES PARTIES to this Convention,

"CONSIDERING that unlawful acts of seizure or exercise of control of aircraft in flight jeopardize the safety of persons and property, seriously affect the operation of air services, and undermine the confidence of the peoples of the world in the safety of civil aviation;"

Actually, they might cop more than a slap on the wrist:-

"Each Contracting State undertakes to make the offence punishable by severe penalties."

There were no acts of seizing the aircraft or exercising control of the aircraft. There was nothing that endangered the safety of the aircraft.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
Although I don't think it is the case here, it is not that far a stretch to make this into a security issue, with close access to the cockpit as an aim.

Like you say, it needs to be "made" a security issue, because it isn't one.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
To put it simply; if there'd been any 'sky-marshals' on there those idiots might have got themselves (or someone else) shot.

Sky-marshals are only supposed to act when someone tries to enter the cockpit. Since "upgrading" seems to happen often enough, those sky-marshals should be able to tell the difference.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 15):
It's as good as going into a shop and taking something, walking out and not paying.

Rather like taking something that is more expensive than the thing you paid for.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
Abide by the rules...as simple as that...

Sometimes one needs to question the rules.


User currently offlineRaffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 18975 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Rather like taking something that is more expensive than the thing you paid for.

Unless they paid the difference, it is still stealing



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 18934 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
OK, law is not my thing, especially not foreign laws. But is there any law like when you ride the tube without a ticket that would apply to this case here? Getting a service without paying for it?

Yes, but it would not apply to a foreign airline in foreign airspace whereas the charge of endangering an aircraft does.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 18934 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Sometimes one needs to question the rules.

yes..but there is a way of doing it..not through anarchy and breaking rules.....the cabin crew (especially the Captain) has the ultimate say in any aircraft...the cabin crew told the pax to go back, they didn't, thus they broke the law...simple as that...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 18934 times:

PIA dont have First Class anymore, only Business.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 18807 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
As this was a LONG flight, no wonder people would want to move into the biz/first class seats. Perhaps if they had a program to upgrade selected frequent flyers, at the check in or gate when they have a large number of those seats available, then you may have prevented this kind of problem. It would also give PIA some good public relations with those lucky pax. You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height.

Then many people would not longer be willing to pay for C/F seats, rather expecting them for a Y fare. This is exactly the bind that US carriers have gotten themselves into.


25 Post contains images Fbgdavidson : Wow. Sucks to be you if you've paid for an economy seat then 'storm' the F section because it is uncomfortable. Welcome to the real world where you ge
26 MANmatt : From what my colleagues told me, the aircraft was a state. The passengers just charged into biz. They threatened the cabin crew, and when the pilot ca
27 IAirAllie : Several laws that could be applied to this situation in the US. It is illegal... to interfere with crew member duties (crew includes FA's) to fail to
28 EmiratesA345 : I really don't think so. Providing the first/business class service costs considerably more than providing economy service. The food, the FA per pass
29 FlyingColours : True, I know that technically assault can be classed as making threats and "battery" is when you physically beat someone so usually people are charrg
30 AR385 : In 1998, I flew LAB's A-310-300 MIA-MAO-VVI on busines class (not that it was anything to write home about) but the section was virtually empty. After
31 ACYYC : The main issue, and what is frightening about this is that a group of fourteen passengers organised and executed an action on board a commercial airli
32 G-CIVP : Serves them right being arrested. It must have been distressing for the flight attendants and other passengers.
33 RIXrat : Been on flights where some teeny bopper from Economy snuk into Business and plopped himself beside me after the flight departed and proceeded to eat h
34 ASMD11 : Couldn't agree more. Or pay for an upgrade before departure. Or like was already said, if there was an upgrade program in place for FF then use that.
35 DeltaGator : Oh look the good doctor goes off topic to trash Delta whenever he gets a chance.
36 Bohlman : But as any pilot will tell you, what's right next to the steel door? The lavatory. You're fooling yourself if you think that they've reinforced that,
37 KJFK31L : This is group mutiny, not one person deciding that he/she deserves a better seat in first class. Group disobedience can escalate very quickly into vi
38 Post contains images Stealthpilot : What horrible behavior!!!! Absolutely true. The fact that people went to Biz class is not the biggest concern here. But the fact that they created a s
39 Malaysia : Reminds me of the time when Hijackers tried to storm the front of the plane and could not find the cockpit cause it was a 747 and the pilots already e
40 Starlionblue : Note that on United/AA etc, North American/Carribean upgrade rules are different from other International. - North American/Carribean: Frequent flyer
41 Post contains images 9252fly : I should start eating more!
42 Wdleiser : I believe a better way to word it is like so: It is the same as going to a sporting event, paying for crappy seats way high up, then walking down to
43 Ktachiya : Yes, as for the old mother being bumped into C class, that is completely reasonable. It can interfere with her health conditions too. The problem is
44 Post contains images Scrappy74 : To lighten the tone a little, anyone remember the Seinfeld episode where Elaine tries to bump herself up to First? "They have COOKIES up there!" It D
45 ASApilot : Well, the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this post was 14 people all of the sudden moving to the front of the PVC pipe with 50 seats in i
46 NAV20 : They were 'exercising control' of the First-Class cabin. For proof, they stayed there till the aircraft landed. As to 'safety', from the press report
47 OlegShv : This is really some wild behavior. Or perhaps, I should have said misbehavior. Those passengers that stormed the Biz cabin should definitely be held a
48 ComeAndGo : …they threatened the well being of their fellow passengers. Might as well call them terrorists and execute them.
49 Post contains images Jepstein : Just what I was thinking Scrappy.
50 Post contains images Lincoln : I don't think so, per se, however there is the issue of not complying with crewmember instructions, disorderly conduct, etc. From a civil standpoint,
51 LTBEWR : My suggestion was to only offer in a careful way a limited number of biz/1st seats, when almost all of them open, and coach is very full, to FF'ers,
52 Electech6299 : What do you mean by that? sarcasm, I hope- but no smilie to suggest so. There are more laws to break than being a terrorist- whether or not you agree
53 Aerorobnz : These passengers were in the wrong, and had they behaved themselves they would have no risk of endangerment. As ANCflyer would say....aim for the bri
54 Supa7E7 : It is hard to imagine the pleasure of watching police come on the aircraft, drag these scoundrels out, and slam them against the pavement! This type o
55 Jetdeltamsy : Realistically they disobeyed the instructions of the cabin crew, which is an offense; and they stole from the airline by not paying for or being prop
56 Post contains images NAV20 : British police don't do things like that, Supa7E7. Well - not until they've got them safely back to the station, anyway. Seriously, though, air trave
57 Post contains images Fbgdavidson : How about a revolution in air travel on US carriers whereby passengers receive the service they pay for? Maybe the time to upgrade the FFs for free i
58 ComeAndGo : If you brake a window in a plane you 're threatening the safety of a flight, but not if you change seats. Use your common sense !! It's like the guy
59 Post contains images NAV20 : That's an assumption at the moment, ComeAndGo. They'll have their day in court, which is the proper place for the matter of their degree of guilt to
60 NorthstarBoy : As a rule, i don't think people act like that in a completely unprovoked manner, while i don't agree with what they did, i'd have a few questions befo
61 Post contains images Electech6299 : I'm not sure how you interpret laws, but I'm sure you're not a lawyer, and probably haven't much use for one. Yes, unenforceable laws and over-enforc
62 Post contains images Cedars747 : Haha...nice one Alex!!!
63 Post contains images BBJII : By Causing a change to the Trim. Weight and Balance is done for a reason. This incident may have change the trim and put the aircraft out of balance.
64 Post contains images Rolfen : LOL LOLOLOL
65 RedChili : IIRC, any offender conducting a crime on board an airplane can be indicted in the country of origin, the country of destination, the country where th
66 Starlionblue : Many airlines have rules for this. But if the rules don't allow it, I don't see why there should be upgrades just because economy is full. Airplanes
67 ComeAndGo : Terrorist should be executed. Yeah that's right, kill'em all. So, "refusing to relinquish their seats upon request" constitutes a safety issue ? Well
68 GF-A330 : captain saeed khan was operating pk701/04may06 isb-man ap-bgg b743. std - 0930lt isb and arrival sta - 1400lt man initially the flight was held due to
69 Post contains images Electech6299 : I'm not sure why you keep quoting "safety issue" here, I said it broke the law, which is true. I never said you need a law degree to live in this wor
70 IAirAllie : Gosh, if they got what they paid for on some routes the travelocity/orbitz/discount crowd would wind up hundreds of miles SHORT of their destination.
71 Post contains images NAV20 : Nice one, IAirAllie.
72 Post contains images Electech6299 : An excellent post all around!
73 Post contains images Thorben : I'll say it again: This is not a security or safety thing. The only charge one could come up here is obtaining a service by fraud, or whatever it is c
74 RedChili : Do "in mid-air" and "on the ground" mean the same thing to you? How should a sky marshal know that 14 people "storming the first class cabin" only in
75 Flying Belgian : No pitty at all. Send them all in jail for a few months. FB.
76 Post contains images Thorben : Did they "storm" on the ground, or not? He is not supposed to act until they are trying to enter the cockpit. Besides, one against fourteen?? And wha
77 RedChili : Quote from the article linked by the thread starter: All the information that I've read concering sky marshals indicate that they sit in one of the f
78 Starlionblue : What do you mean it's not mutiry? They disobeyed direct orders from the crew. That's mutiny. As for intent, how is the crew supposed to know whether
79 BR715-A1-30 : Ah, another case of the delinquent flier upgrade.
80 JGPH1A : I don't know if that's strictly true - my mom got upgraded twice from Y to F on LGW-RDU and vv (yes, to First, not Bizness - she is a jammy cow) by t
81 Post contains images NAV20 : Glad for her sake, JGPH1A. That raises a point. From the newspaper account, all 14 were arrested and charged. That strongly suggests that they were a
82 IAirAllie : What is a "jammy cow"??? As a furlouged AA FA I can tell you that AA has very strict policies against FA's upgrading passengers. It happens but it is
83 Chksix : I've suggested introduction of remotely operated seatbelt locks in the cabin. Time to do that again. The belts would be made tamper proof and electric
84 Post contains images Electech6299 : Well for that matter, why not when the flight is full, folding up unoccupied First and Biz seats movie-theatre style and locking them? That would pre
85 Post contains images Starlionblue : Except that I like to put my junk on the unoccupied seat next to me.
86 ComeAndGo : Which if the flight attendant dislikes could order you to remove it and your refusal would be interpreted as … … and since FA's … … they'll t
87 RedChili : If a group of 14 people on the street: 1) Behaves in a clearly aggressive way, 2) Appropriates things that don't belong to them (steal), and 3) Refus
88 Starlionblue : As Redchili points out, you are incorrect. By my argument a person who walks uninvited into a private club and acts in a hostile manner should be ass
89 Post contains images WesternA318 : Anyone else remember the scene in Airplane II? All these Mujahadeen and other terrorists walk through security with no big deal, but when lil old gra
90 Post contains images NAV20 : Not sure about the White House, RedChili. There was a joke in Russia a few years ago. An elderly pensioner had spent three hours queueing for meat, a
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