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FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21110 times:

Guy Norris is reporting in the electronic edition of this week's Flight International (05/09/06) that Airbus is working on a "dramatic redesign" of the A350 aimed at an all new aircraft family capable of leapfrogging the rival 787 as well as the 777.

The new family is expected to comprise three versions A350-800 (aimed at the 787-3/8/9), -900 (aimed at the 787-10 & 772ER), -1000 (aimed at the 773ER) and will include: a larger, all composite wing; an approximately 555mm (19in) wider fuselage; more powerful 85,000-90,000 thrust-class engines; and the same Al-Li structure as the "original" A350.

"Flight International has learned that Airbus internal planning douments claim new techonology engines and lighter structural weight will enable [the A350-1000] to achieve up to a 20% lower fuel burn than 773ER...it is understood that the common cross section is likely to be adopted over an alternative study that favoured retaining the original diameter for the smaller -800/900, and increasing it for the -1000."

The -900 would enter service first in 2012, followed by -800, and the -1000 coming last in either late 2013 or early 2014.

[Edited 2006-05-08 10:33:20]

251 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21099 times:

This sounds more like this proposed A370 aircraft, though in the case of this "A370", Airbus apparently wants to keep the option open to make it a quad, not twin.

EDIT: Here's the topic on the A370, which sounds a lot like it's actually the A350-1000.

Airbus Considers Newer And Wider A370 (by Singapore_Air May 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-05-08 10:07:42]

User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21066 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
This sounds more like this proposed A370 aircraft, though in the case of this "A370", Airbus apparently wants to keep the option open to make it a quad, not twin.

The aforementioned article also reports that:

"The move to the larger twin concept also means the formal abandonement of Airbus's fundamental belief in its long-range four-engine policy."


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21051 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
and the same Al-Li structure as the "original" A350.

For a while I was thinking that Airbus might have gotten it right, but they are still using Al-Li. Well. we'll find out soon enough.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21038 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
The new family is expected to comprise three versions A350-800 (aimed at the 787 3/8/9),

Does this mean that orders so far for the A350 would automatically be converted to the new version(s)?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21026 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 2):
"The move to the larger twin concept also means the formal abandonement of Airbus's fundamental belief in its long-range four-engine policy."

Nonetheless, Airbus still has time to work on the A350-1000/A370, since if it exists, it's only in the R&D stage. Airbus will have to go through with the A350-8/9 being a twin, while they can still decide on whether to make the -1000/A370 a twin or a quad. Until Airbus makes a formal announcement on this new aircraft, all options may still be open.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21026 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
For a while I was thinking that Airbus might have gotten it right, but they are still using Al-Li.

If they can get the weight improvements while still using Al-Li, why would using that material be 'wrong'? Composites are not the One True Way, however much a.netters would have you believe.

The problem currently is the weight, not the material. They could use concrete for all the airlines would care, if they could get the weight down to acceptable levels.

This development sounds interesting, I wonder how long until we know one way or the other.

[Edited 2006-05-08 10:22:42]

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20950 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):

If they can get the weight improvements while still using Al-Li, why would using that material be 'wrong'? Composites are not the One True Way, however much a.netters would have you believe.

Thats true, but the weight advantage is not the only reason to use composite. From the maintenance purpose, the lack of corrosion can help a lot. Plus, more airplanes are being built out of composites than concrete, so right now, the only options you have to build an airplane are metals or composites. Airbus chose metals, Boeing chose composites. The future is certainly interesting.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20914 times:

The full text of the article is now available online:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...anges+to+fuselage%2c+wing+and.html


User currently offlineBells From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20894 times:

Link to full articles:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...anges+to+fuselage%2c+wing+and.html


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20894 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
an approximately 555mm (19in)

So which is it? 19in (483mm) or 555mm (21.9in) The latter is the difference in width between the A300 and 777 cross section so unless Airbus is copying the 777, it must be the former.

Is Airbus sticking to their strategy of designing the frame for X abreast, and not in between X abreast an X+1 abreast? Or are they relying on thinner cabin walls to make up the difference and allow this design to seat 10 abreast? Either way, Airbus fans will have to find some other reason to justify their preference for Airbus widebody jets other than 2+4+2 seating.  Wink

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
The problem currently is the weight, not the material. They could use concrete for all the airlines would care, if they could get the weight down to acceptable levels.

But the material and the way it is used to make the plane determines the weight. Unless there is something preventing Airbus from making a structurally efficient A350, the increased weight of the A350 versus the 787 likely has something to do with material.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20848 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
But the material and the way it is used to make the plane determines the weight. Unless there is something preventing Airbus from making a structurally efficient A350, the increased weight of the A350 versus the 787 likely has something to do with material.

And thats my point - if they can solve the weight problems with a particular material then why does the material used matter?


User currently offlineKilljoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20795 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
Unless there is something preventing Airbus from making a structurally efficient A350, the increased weight of the A350 versus the 787 likely has something to do with material.

This redesign could actually change a lot, since they won't need to take the old assembly line into consideration.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20784 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
And thats my point - if they can solve the weight problems with a particular material then why does the material used matter?

Who says they have solved weight problems? They are at this point comparing this new proposed jet to the 777, and saying nothing about the 787.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20762 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
So which is it? 19in (483mm) or 555mm (21.9in)

Sorry, my bad, 555mm was a typo, FI says 500mm.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20745 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 13):
Who says they have solved weight problems? They are at this point comparing this new proposed jet to the 777, and saying nothing about the 787.

Did I say they had? I said 'if they can solve the weight problems with a particular material then why does the material used matter?'


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20670 times:

Airbus probably simply can't produce a composite A350 quickly enough to counter the 787. Thus, even with a major redesign, they're sticking with Al-Li.

Cessna, Beech, and Mooney still sell lots of airplanes, even with Cirrus, Columbia, and Diamond out there.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20640 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 16):

Airbus probably simply can't produce a composite A350 quickly enough to counter the 787. Thus, even with a major redesign, they're sticking with Al-Li.

Cessna, Beech, and Mooney still sell lots of airplanes, even with Cirrus, Columbia, and Diamond out there

I personally think they are better off waiting two years at this point to see what 787 is like. But I guess they are afraid that they will lose too many potential sales if they don't do something now. And Boeing will be able to set the price for the 787, and generate significant cash flow in the future to fund new products down the road.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20640 times:

I think the bigger lines of Airbus strategy are becoming clearer every day.

While on this forum Airbus have been bashed heavily for their inability to come up with something radical and their apparent arrogance in sticking to the proposed A350 with its standard 8-abreast seating, they have apparently been working extremely hart on something even more dramatic than what most of us had been hoping/calling/warning (*) for: not only a good 787 competitor, but also a real 777 killer.
(*): fill in as you please depending on your preference.

The comments from ILFC, SQ and ER -and more so their weird reluctance to simultaneously commit to any 787 despite them calling the A350 only second best- can be fully understood too now: they must have seen the detailed proposals, were more than charmed by them yet feared Airbus was going to shelf them for whatever reason you can think of and decided to speak out and thus try to force Airbus to go ahead with what they have seen.

The Boeing cheerleaders happily saw all these comments as pure A350 bashing, but in fact they might very well have been stimulating the A350, although a different A350 than the public at large still had in mind at that time. I personally think that if the A350 is relaunched under this latest form (most probably at Farnborough, given the pace of new reports and the deadline put forward by ILFC's CEO) we will see some of them step on board right away.

I think this wider A350 in 3 versions is not such good news for the 787, as it will now face a much more closely fought battle with a wider and thus more versatile competitor (although it should be able to withstand the attack) but it certainly is terrible news for the 777 line which will be flying on borrowed time as from then on: Emirates for instance has been pushing Airbus to do something to their A340 not to loose the outstanding orders and this A350-1000 might be the much wanted upgrade. One can only start to imagine the consequences for the 777 backlog if indeed the A350-1000 is launched.

It is good news for us aviation enthusiasts however, as it will give us more than one thing too look forward to over the coming years.

Let's hear your views on this.

[Edited 2006-05-08 11:35:33]

User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20558 times:

Just hoping it looks a bit different to break the twin-engine monotony somehow. V-tail anyone?


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20536 times:

If this airplane family come true, it will be a huge step forward for airbus.

It the -1000 is launched very soon, i do not expect further orders for both the A340 AND the B777 as they are BOTH dead with the -1000x and the B787-10 in line...

The 1000X with its wider fuselage could be a big hurt for Boeing for coming B748-sales as well.With the same fuselage length as the A346 it could accom. around 400 pax - the ideal replacement for the B744 is born.
That in combination with a 20percent lower (assumed) fuelburn in comp. to the B777-300ER.
Amazing !!! WOOW!!!


User currently offlineAp305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20482 times:

The two decade old fuselage sub-structure probably has a lot more to do with the a350/787 oew gap than the materials used. A new fuselage will change the equation in a big way.

User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20319 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
That in combination with a 20percent lower (assumed) fuelburn in comp. to the B777-300ER.

That's a huge assumption. The 773ER is a very efficient aircraft.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20304 times:

This isn't good news:

Quote:
While dramatically enhancing the product�s overall competitiveness against both the 777 and 787 families, it will also inevitably delay the development schedule. Under the original A350 plan, Airbus expected to put the first aircraft into service in late 2010. Under the revised schedule, first delivery is expected to be no earlier than 2012.
The new plan would call for the introduction of the -900 first, with the -800 following and the -1000 coming last in late 2013 or early 2014.

This new aircraft better leapfrog, not equal, the 787. If you ask customers to wait until at least 6 years from now, they are almost betting their companies (and certainly their jobs) that the wait will be worth it. It's a "leap of faith" by Airbus and their customers. What about the existing customers? If Airbus were to lose one, or two, to Boeing, it would be a PR disaster.

EDIT: Still no A300/310 size replacement here.
What about the A320 replacement? Lots and lots to do in the next 6-8 years!

[Edited 2006-05-08 12:43:36]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20269 times:

@ MD90

That is what the article says.It is not coming from me, but from Airbus.


25 Aerosol : I have to say that I disagree with some of you here - I do not think that that a bigger Airbus aircraft has a market. Most of the 747 100/200s have be
26 Thorben : I can't wait for this to be officially announced. An amazing plane, taking on the 787, 777, and maybe even the 747-8 at once. When it goes right, the
27 Lumberton :
28 Atmx2000 : Please, the -1000 has an estimated EIS 8 years from now. And gains come partially from engine improvements, which can be shoe horned back onto the 77
29 RJ777 : What about the A360? What is it going to be?
30 Leelaw : It's not clear to me from the gravamen of the article how the redesigned A350-800 will "leapfrog" the 787-3/8/9, or the A350-900 the 787-10. If it's
31 Atmx2000 : Wow, Thorben. You know essentially nothing about this proposal, and yet you are calling it "amazing" and are predicting Boeing won't be able to sell
32 Post contains images OyKIE : The battle between the A350 and 787 becomes even more interesting for us aviation nerds According to Humbert he says in an interview with Aviation Wee
33 Lumberton : And while they're doing all this, the competition develops a composite follow on the 737....
34 Post contains images Zvezda : The chances of beating the CFRP B787 with either Li-Al or concrete is the same: zero, though they can get a lot closer with Al-Li than with concrete.
35 Joni : Perhaps Airbus could do a "Boeing" and trade those in for Airbus' newer planes? (remember, Boeing bought SIA's 343s to sell them replacement 777s)
36 Post contains links Halibut : In my oppinion , this is exactly what airbus needs to do to counter Boeing's 787 . I do feel at this time ..., airbus is still being rushed on making
37 Post contains images Glareskin : That is a bold statement. There must be more ways to save weight or improve fuel burn. I believe Boeing's desicion to choose composites turned out to
38 F4N : To all: While all of this appears to indicate that Airbus is leaning toward a reappraisal of the A350 program and may be adopting a broader competitiv
39 Post contains links Leelaw : GE/Pratt & Whitney Engine Alliance makes bid to power revamped Airbus A350: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+bid+to+power+revamped+Airbus.html
40 Zvezda : The essense of the assembly line is the tooling. The tooling cannot be reused if the fuselage cross section changed. It would be much easier to just
41 Cruiser : This sounds like yet another knee-jerk reaction a la A350 by Airbus. The comments were made about two months ago, and as a result, it seems that Airbu
42 Joni : Note: the comments were made _publicly_ a few months ago, we don't know what they've been discussing behind closed doors. Note2: so far this is just
43 Art : I like your interpretation. In particular the A340. The patient's condition is terminal. Why conduct invasive surgery when the B787-10 will kill it s
44 Post contains images Zvezda : I don't think so. Boeing would be better off stretching the B787 one more time to produce a B787-11X. The latter would cost far less to develop, far
45 Widebodyphotog : I have to say I'm dubious about the veracity of Airbus intentions with reference to this article... A new wider fuselage retaining the same material m
46 RJ111 : I don't suppose anyone knows how much Airbus has sunk into the A350 so far?
47 TP313 : If you don't want this thing to have a very limited range compared to the competition, you can not do it without an enlarged re-inforced wing, bleedl
48 OyKIE : Thank you for explaining this. I thought it was the cost of building new buildings for the new plane that increased the cost. I wonder what Boeing wi
49 Ap305 : Can someone come up with an actual figure for how much composites can save over al-li in terms of weight for a fuselage. Having studied basic material
50 Post contains images Zvezda : With all due respect, I recall you writing something similar about a year ago regarding the B787-10. You're probably right this time, but I hope you'
51 Post contains links Joni : This depends entirely on the design details of the plane. Here's some info on Boeing's choices for the 787: http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues
52 Lumberton : ILFC has firm orders for twenty 787s.
53 BoomBoom : It's quite amusing to see Airbus (and the Airbus cheerleaders) embracing a wider fuselage and the dreaded 3-3-3 abreast seating. Excuse me??? It looks
54 Tockeyhockey : yes, it will, but six or seven years from now. the 787 will be in production next year. perhaps by the time the a350 is in service, a new, composite
55 SparkingWave : If Airbus announces this new and improved design, it may become a Pandora's box and may only add more problems than it solves. - Airbus has to come u
56 BoeingBus : But I bet the composite fuselage produced by using an all automated barrel prodution system beats the Al-Li in production costs???
57 Zvezda : This is both controversial and speculative. However, we do know the OEWs published by Airbus and Boeing for the A350 and B787. For same sized models,
58 Katekebo : This is the airplane that Airbus should have come up with in the first place two years ago, instead of the A350 they have been trying to sell so far.
59 Art : Too late. Airbus underestimated the 787 for too long. Could turn out to be one of the worst misjudgements in their history.
60 Leelaw : Here's an alternative theory, Ap305 speculated earlier that: I'm not saying I embrace this theory, but I don't recall seeing this explanation before.
61 Lumberton : Maybe for the mid-size market, but they can't afford to "take their eye off the ball" as regards the A320 replacement market. However, this is a huge
62 Post contains links Poitin : I agree with Zvezda completely. Airbus is hunting the wrong plane with the wrong design. It would appear the great debate inside Airbus is over and c
63 MD-90 : At least it shows that Airbus ain't stupid. Yup, I know. Because the A340 is such a graceful (A342/A343) or handsome (A345/A346) plane.
64 Ap305 : Leelaw wrote:Ap305 speculated earlier that: Quoting Ap305 (Reply 21): The two decade old fuselage sub-structure probably has a lot more to do with the
65 Aircellist : The 2-4-2 seating still is many person's favourite, only... those persons are only plane and travel lovers, not airline CEOs...
66 BoomBoom : This is the airplane that Airbus should have come up with instead of the A380.
67 DeltaDC9 : They have already lost 400 orders, but more importantly are the airlines on that list and the potential for more firm orders. The risk of the 350 pro
68 Post contains images Rpaillard : So what? As far as there is reliable solutions for better and more efficient aircraft (typically with engine), I do not see any problem. As a matter
69 Poitin : In another thread, I asked a question about the electrolysis characteristics of Al-Li. Lithium is one of the most reactive metals around and is used
70 DeltaDC9 : Is it possible to have sacrificial metal on an aircraft like on a boat? With a Mercury outboard and others the small trim tab is made of Zinc I belie
71 Joni : They're also different planes built to different designs. Airbus have said that if they used more composites they could shave 500kg off the A350, so
72 Poitin : Yes, but you need a metal with a higher electrochemical value. That is why Magnesium in used on boats with aluminum and or iron/ steel. The alternati
73 Gigneil : That's just not true, and you know it. Walt Gillette said there were more than sufficient proposals by alloy manufacturers, some even lighter and str
74 BoomBoom : And as we discussed before, if they could only save 500kg, they are doing something VERY wrong! I suspect this was just more Airbus spin--not to be t
75 AA1818 : I must say that if Airbus pull this one off successfully that is... switching existing A350 customers wooing new customers and managing to have more e
76 Post contains images Zvezda : I don't know that and I really don't believe it. If Airbus can beat the B787 using concrete and the same SFC engines, then I'll eat my words. Similar
77 Post contains images Poitin : BINGO!
78 RedFlyer : I doubt it. I think Boeing carefully and thoroughly thought out Airbus' expected reaction to the 787. Indeed, I think for the past two years, they mu
79 11Bravo : I do not envy the Airbus position here one bit. On the one hand, they've come to the market with an A350 that clearly is just not a competitive design
80 Poitin : I think the problem is that that person is on the EADS board and his name is Noel. The "new-improved" A350 is not enough, as Zvezda explains above. S
81 Ken777 : How much of this rumor is a blocking effort? I seem to remember years ago that Airbus threw in another blocking effort when SQ was serious about the 7
82 Coa747 : Anything that further delays the EIS is good news to Boeing. It is funny how some people on this forum view the new design and further delay in EIS as
83 Post contains images Stitch : Considering the program itself, this may very well be the most prudent tact for Airbus to follow. They may very well lose upwards of 500 sales to the
84 11Bravo : If that's true, and I'm in no position to accurately judge that, we are about to witness a very serious mistake. If Airbus delays EIS by two or three
85 Atmx2000 : How much is materials and constraints determined by materials and how much is just structurally inefficient design unrelated to material selection? P
86 Post contains links Poitin : Since I got no response to the question, I did a google or two or three and came up with this. http://www.corrosionsource.com/events/intercorr/techse
87 Zvezda : I don't know what Airbus will announce at Farnborough. My comment was based on the report cited above. As I've pointed out before, there are some sig
88 FlyABR : those of you that think the boeing of the 90s will return are going to be sadly disappointed. if airbus goes ahead with a "real" competitor to the 773
89 Poitin : I, too, will wait. I know that there are those in Airbus who want all composite. Perhaps Mr. Chew will look Gustav in the eye and say, "Yes, but it i
90 11Bravo : I see what you're saying (I think). If Airbus wants to compete with the B787, they must achieve near-parity +/- with the Dreamliner. If Airbus wants
91 EssentialPowr : There may be another thread addressing this, therefore my apologies, but Airbus will have to rename the A350, as now the name simply implies make over
92 Post contains images Saturn5 : This is really laughable comment. Borrowed time? It looks like 7-9 years of this borrowed remain. That's an epoch in aviation terms. And Boeing will
93 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I have some information here regarding the various EV's of Al-Li...hope this helps...the EV properties of Al-Li are quite interesting indeed... what
94 Zvezda : Yes. Boeing are not about to replace the B787. However, they have multiple options for dealing with any new Airbus that takes on the B777-300ER. I st
95 Widebodyphotog : Brilliant wording Neil, I would only add that in order to take full advantage of lighter materials the way they design and analyze aircraft must chan
96 Wjcandee : This sounds like a marketing ploy to prevent SQ from ordering 787s. If Airbus really plans to redesign (meaning "dump") the A350 and go for a clean-sh
97 Post contains links Joni : Of course Boeing would still have to deliver the 777s if Airbus bought them, just like Airbus had to deliver the A343s Boeing bought off SIA. A furthe
98 Post contains images Jacobin777 : "potentially" is the operative word here....historically, there is only so much one can do with a metal alloy....CRFP allows much more flexibility...
99 Glideslope : I agree. IMO, there is great pressure come up with something to counter the Boeing Cash Flow, and it's ability to effect future development. This is
100 Zvezda : My very rough back-of-the-envelope extrapolations suggest that a B787-11X with the payload/range performance of the B777-300ER would have a MTOW in t
101 JayinKitsap : On the subject of costs, if B shifts more of their production to CFRP the relative cost of carbon fiber and Titanium will increase with the demand. At
102 Widebodyphotog : If the 787 is any bellweather the widest the cabin could be is around 226-227 inches...still a bit short of the 777 and because of the smaller diamet
103 Zvezda : Excellent! It would be interesting to know how this compares with the friction-stir welding pioneered by Eclipse Aviation. Did Airbus plan to use las
104 Joni : The A350 and B787 are different planes, and differ not only in the material breakdown they're made of, but the actual designs are also different.
105 Zvezda : Please tell us, Joni, what is your theory of why the previous A350 design was 15 tonnes heavier than the B787. Was it the materials? Was it the desig
106 Hb88 : No. You're quite right, but it's no more idiotic and simple-minded than many of the comments and beliefs about Airbus on this thread. Some of these p
107 Poitin : IF I read your chart correctly, the EV for Al-Li is in the range of Zinc! Goddamn -- what a wonderful battery that would make! -7. EV! Connect that t
108 Post contains images Jacobin777 : it completely would..but given the price of Li, I think only Bill Gates-III would be able to afford that kind of battery........it would last long th
109 OldAeroGuy : It's the combination of the 777LR/787 that is causing the Airbus reaction, not either airplane individually. If the A346 worked well against the 773E
110 Post contains images Poitin : You could always recycle A380s and A350s into laptop batteries I wonder if EK knows that yet? They are going to have 43 of those parked by the sea in
111 Joni : Why don't you email Airbus if the matter so weighs on your mind? Of course, it may be that some technicalities arising from sharing the 330/340 manuf
112 Hb88 : Joni, I'm not sure Zveda would care for what Airbus think of his questions or opinions (and the veracity thereof). [And that's coming from a source d
113 Post contains images Jacobin777 : .your setting yourself up for some serious there...but ooohh...can I run my gas-guzzling Mobile P-IV laptop with full video power from SFO-SYD... I s
114 Jacobin777 : filler filler suggest deletion[Edited 2006-05-08 21:34:19]
115 Post contains images A319XFW : Luckily those are A380's then, which aren't made from Al-Li...
116 Post contains images BoogyJay : The A320 replacement or the -internally called- A30X could, and IMO will address the 200-250 seat short-medium range market (i.e. the market of some
117 Ken777 : I was thinking about that also. Have the current 787 component suppliers addressed that issue for the 787 autoclaves? With a second 787 line a potent
118 Widebodyphotog : Boeing does have a few patents on FSW as well and hardware in development... But by every analysis the "old all new" A350 should have been much light
119 Post contains images Zeus419 : To the Al-Li doubters here (Poitin etc.):- You obviously think you know better than the experts, i.e:- ALCOA, ACAN, Pechiney etc., with whom Airbus ha
120 Post contains images Poitin : Hell, let them rant and flame. I'm designing a laptop power source for the A380. It comes with couple wires, a cathode, and can of coke. Should power
121 Post contains links Brendows : Look at this table Widebodyphotog made for us, you'll find the OEW there: A350 and 787 data
122 A319XFW : What is this 787-11X? Boeing have only just said they will more than likely be going with a -10. And if it has got a 75m fuselage, then wouldn't it b
123 Poitin : I find your posting interesting. You do have the slides we can examine? It would be appreciated. And do you have the EV data for Al-Li C47A? You make
124 Post contains images Jacobin777 : but that doesn't relate to the plane being heavier than its corresponding CRFP plane....and being a metal corrosion is still a problem...that's one o
125 Post contains images Hb88 : er, isn't someone forgetting the lovely A330? I know it's unfashionable to cite an Airbus success, but the A330 is a nice a/c which was originally in
126 Post contains images TP313 : It is Zvezda's wet dream...
127 Poitin : Do you want the flavored (can of coke) or unflavored (bottle of carbonated water) verison?
128 Atmx2000 : 500mm wider would make the exterior fuselage of this aircraft 2" narrower than the 777. The difference between fuselage and cabin width for the 787 i
129 Post contains images Poitin : Have a drink, you need it.
130 DIA : It is with these and numerous other posts here that just make me laugh (or at least grin). This is the airliner business, folks. R&D will always be k
131 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'll take the flavoured version thank you very much.. I think he's correct in his comments as I've read a few of the same things on other websites...
132 Post contains images TP313 : Yup, just got a call from my favourite barmaid, I think I'll go out now to get the drink she prepared for me. I'll be back tomorrow
133 Post contains images Zvezda : Ok, I'll email Airbus to ask them about Joni's theory. Airbus would see that coming. Don't you think? It's a hypothetical possible Boeing response to
134 Poitin : The question was what is the EV of the particular alloy? Aluminum has been used in aircraft construction for many, many years, and I even owned a C17
135 Saturn5 : Read your comments with interest. Years ago I was watching a TV documentary showing how Boeing designed and built the 777 with all the key decision m
136 Widebodyphotog : Fuselage wall getting impractically thin there, and the 777 can't even accommodate 17.2 inch seats at 10 abreast...I feel as though I'm really going
137 Stitch : At first blush, a CFRP-fuselaged 777 strikes me as the least likely path for Boeing to take due to the significant changes in component sourcing and f
138 CWFan : Sorry if this is a silly question, but how does the NEWEST 350-8/9 interal (cabin) fuse diameter compare to the internal (cabin) fuse diameter of the
139 Ken777 : Actually I enjoy flying the 330, especially when it's a CX flight. The fact is, however, that the 787 is outperforming the 330 and, if Airbus only ha
140 Texfly101 : One of the little noticed provisions of the WA bill to fund the improvements was that the pier was not contigent on getting the 787. It was to be a g
141 Widebodyphotog : I retract my statements to some extent. It appears as though the "new all new" A350 fuselage will be 241 inches in diameter, and that should allow it
142 Atmx2000 : That's why I said they would have to shave 4" to get to that point. With a 4" wider cabin they would be 2" wider than the 777. True, but I would expe
143 Widebodyphotog : However, to allow 10 abreast with 17.2 inch seats the cabin would need to be 8-9 inches wider than the current 777 (basically 747 cabin width)...In a
144 Atmx2000 : Boeing says a 777 can support 10 abreast with 17" seats and 2" armrests and 17" aisles. 2" more would allow 10 seats to be increased by 0.2", or each
145 Widebodyphotog : Ok, Ok, I'll grant you that, but I was using the 747/787 standard with 19+ inch isles and 17.2 inch seats... -widebodyphotog
146 Post contains images Hb88 : Well, the 787 outperforms it on paper . What will be really interesting will be to see how the 'unknowns' of the 787 pan out - maintenance, damage/re
147 11Bravo : Is that you Udo?
148 Glacote : You know how B787 fuselage pieces are fastened together, dont't you? With metallic rivets. And you know how the A350 fuselage pieces will alledgely b
149 Post contains images Iwok : Not to mention "the dreaded middle seat in business" This is definately a concern for sensitive areas such as the bilge, joints on the bottom of the
150 Post contains links Leelaw : Airbus settling on wider fuselage, composite wing as it nears A350 revamp decision ...The redesign comes after Emirates shipped a row of its triple se
151 Joni : See Reply #112 - they're different planes. Which "analyses" have you seen? woldn't that require access to the detailed designs? I've seen that, but w
152 Killjoy : Regarding corrosion, is there anything that prevents Airbus from for example building the structures around the toilets using CFRP? As far as I know,
153 Zvezda : I don't care at all whether production will be in Hamburg or Toulouse, but I do hope that the decision is made for business reasons rather than for p
154 Post contains images Jacobin777 : If I'm not mistaken in what you are saying...they would be independent of each other..thus there wouldn't be a canceling ("offset") effect.... to a c
155 Post contains images Astuteman : For me that's the key to this, Atmx2000. Optimising the cabin configuation will make the difference (as with the 787). If A are planning to do to the
156 Zvezda : Exactly! As I've been arguing, the new Airbus needs to be one full seat width wider than the B787.
157 Zeus419 : >> Exactly! As I've been arguing, the new Airbus needs to be one full seat width wider than the B787
158 WINGS : Well than it seems that you are right Zvezda. The current A350 being proposed by Airbus will has a fuselage width of 6.69m vs 6.19m of the B777. This
159 Astuteman : My understanding was of an increase of 500mm relative to the A330/340/350, WINGS, not the 777 cross-section. As I said, if they can make a same as/or
160 WINGS : You bring up a good point Astuteman. Reading through the Flight international article I got the impression that the A350 would be greater than that o
161 Astuteman : That's my understanding, WINGS. Regards
162 Widebodyphotog : Of course they are different planes, but designed for the same target missions. The 787-9 is distinctly larger in every respect relative to the "old
163 DeltaDC9 : This is not true, NASA and Boeing have been researching CFRP since the 70's, and I am not aware of any issues that have not been beat to death includ
164 Poitin : Airbus is planning on using composite for the A380 Pax floor beams so they are making use of composite inside. Just where else, I don't know. However
165 Manni : The 'new' A350 is likely to be an improvement over the A350 that has been offered at the time current customers decided to buy the aircraft. I doubt
166 Widebodyphotog : Sorry, I don't think so...That would mean that Airbus was planning to build both the "old all new" and the "new all new" A350 at the same time. I mea
167 Atmx2000 : No doubt because they were keeping slots free for that QR order as well as to win SQ and EK.
168 Texfly101 : So true. Again, the story of the 787 is not the material, its the process, tooling, and worldwide collaboration risk sharing that is major. Just the
169 Post contains images BoogyJay : Unfashionable? Maybe for some A bashers, absolutely not for me! Anyway, I do know the A330 is a great aircraft, but the subject at hand was not about
170 DAYflyer : It wont be dramatic enough without huge CASM improvements and the weight Ali-Li offers may not provide that improvement.......
171 Post contains images Manni : Why would they want the 'old all new A350' if Airbus offers them a 'new all new A350' which comes in a similar size (A358 aimed at the 787-3/8/9, A35
172 Brendows : If the rumours about the 'new all new A350' is correct, it's more aimed at being a 772ER- and 77W-competitor, because of its cross section. With this
173 Atmx2000 : Have they said it is going to be more fuel efficient than the original A350? The fuel efficieny statement I have seen has been in comparison to the 7
174 EI321 : That depends. The A333 is the original size for the A330 range but the shrunken A332 is remarkably efficient also. I think it will be a similar store
175 Manni : Airbus has only sold 30 slots so far in 2011 and 2010 this can only mean that the other airlines who ordered the A350 only want to take delivery of t
176 Post contains images Poitin : That is an interesting point. Did Airbus go too far? Is this new fat A350 going cut into the A380 by offering a smaller plane with a better CASM? (Th
177 Zvezda : SQ will retire their first B777-200ER from their active fleet in 2009. If Boeing will open a 2nd line or if a slot-swapping deal could be made with P
178 Joni : That may be true at least in some cases, if slots/overflight rights aren't restricted. Also, both planes should be actually flying, as opposed to awa
179 WINGS : Joni have a look at your last post. It goes both ways. If I'm counting correctly, than the latest A350 is the fifth incarnation. This also does not h
180 Post contains images Scbriml : Do you really believe that Primaris still has 787 production slots?
181 Zvezda : They placed a firm order, no? If they had entered into a deal to give up their slots, I think we would have heard about it.
182 Joni : I understood Zvezda's comment to apply to comparing the A380 to the 787-10. Regarding repeated redesigns of the A350, I agree that it doesn't help Ai
183 Post contains links Brendows : Primaris hasn't firmed up the deal for the 788 yet, if I've understood it correctly, it's still nothing else than a commitment. The contract negotiat
184 Scbriml : Most definitely not!
185 Manni : A firm commitment at best.
186 Zvezda : Thank you Brendows, Scbriml, and Manni. I wasn't sure, so I asked.
187 Scbriml : From Boeing's website (user defined report - all 787 customers) Customer Model Total Air Canada 787-8 14 Air China 787-8 15 Air India 787-8 27 Air New
188 Widebodyphotog : To pull off fuel efficiency gains against the 787 with the "new all new" A350 fuselage being 15 inches wider than the former, would be quite miraculo
189 Zvezda : Could GE do this using the fan from the GE90-115B as is? Or would the blades need to be recontoured?
190 Post contains links Widebodyphotog : I suspect that new blade profiles would be needed with fan mass flow needing to be about the same but FPR would be reduced, reducing the amount of po
191 Post contains images Poitin : Too complex. It sounds like Dubya, or Don R. talking, explaining all the details. However, it's your law, so you get to write it. The reason why I pu
192 Widebodyphotog : An aircraft a tick smaller and larger in some regards to 777-200ER can not offer the 20-30% fuel burn improvements relative to that plane as the "old
193 Zvezda : I think you're right. If the A350 can't beat the B787-10 in CASM, why bother? On the other hand, if the "new all-new" A350 can beat the B787-10 in CA
194 11Bravo : Which brings up the question of a possible modification to Zvezda's Law: Except where slot restrictions preclude it, a smaller, lower CASM airliner w
195 Texfly101 : Thanks, that was interesting and informative. Another piece of the puzzle.
196 Zvezda : Thinking of slot restrictions as something other than a cost of doing business confuses the issue. Slots are always available, but at a cost, and som
197 Lokey123 : A Boeing S&M rep. indicated that those Primaris slots were all but a distant memory.
198 Post contains links Leelaw : Excellent point, the Brits at least, seem interested in "loosening up" the transferability of slots: UK study comes out in favour of 'open and unrest
199 Poitin : I think we should label them somehow, this is getting confusing. Let see, I think you are saying the Fat A350 will not have the CASM of the second, o
200 Post contains images Poitin : See, don't you wish you used my suggestion of MagnumJet? Now you have to watch using that "W" word. So, Airbus is not only taking on the B777 with th
201 Poitin : And if not slots at a major, over-congested hub, you will see a number of other secondary hubs develop. Such places as as DUB, SNN, MAN, etc come to
202 Widebodyphotog : Honestly I have to admit some facetiousness here. I've used that terminology because it is absurd to me on the face of it, that Airbus is throwing th
203 11Bravo : ...and if they do, would they call it an A350. It seems to me from a marketing perspective, to say nothing of an engineering perspective, that the de
204 Poitin : They are only trying to confuse the issues at SIA and have appeared to done so. My current "insider" info is that that you have to wait for Farnborou
205 Post contains links Widebodyphotog : Just read that and I'm still wiping the milk off my screen... But woah!, I mean Boeing and their risk sharing partners will pony up 8-10 Bil for the
206 A319XFW : Hmm... that reminds me of something that was said when the 787 came out and those engines could be adapted to the A330......
207 Atmx2000 : Even if Airbus hasn't reserved slots for EK and SQ, they probably have done so for QR. I expect QR would want somewhere between 10 to 30 planes befor
208 Poitin : True, but Boeing has Y3, where Airbus did not have an A350. And then there is Y1 if Boeing really wants to run Airbus into the ground. Is this after
209 Zvezda : Only a tiny fraction of the $5B estimated development cost of the "old all-new" A350 has already been spent.
210 A319XFW : Perhaps one of the 45 A380's Emirates is getting will be going to him - after all, what's one less going to do with all those! It'll probably look in
211 11Bravo : As long as the "new all new" A350 has a composite fuselage you may well have a point there.
212 Hb88 : huh? you've lost me there.
213 Hb88 : Oops, my apologies. Too much work, blurry vision. Need. Sleep.
214 Widebodyphotog : Well, the "old all new" A350 was quite similar in terms of fuel burn to 787. No big disparities there. The sticking point was that the 787 was a bit
215 Atmx2000 : Well I would be surprised if those engines did not fit under the 777LR wing. No doubt work would be required, and no doubt the 777 would have a heavi
216 Manni : Good that you added, that this is what YOU expect. Apparently not early enough. An interim solution might still be needed. The first 777s are to leav
217 Atmx2000 : They denied a decision has been made. Not the rumors of new proposals. "We continue looking at further possibilities together with the airlines," Air
218 Zvezda : Absolutely. They would not be any larger than the GE90-115B.
219 Widebodyphotog : hey, hey, hey, personally I would not hold my breath on the 777 having a heavier airframe than the "new all new" A350-900. The "old all new" A350-900
220 11Bravo : Isn't that more or less a description of the B787-10? How could they, even theoretically, achieve a similar structural weight without using composite
221 Post contains images Atmx2000 : Well, if you put it that way ... Though I have to wonder if they had limitations on their ability to increase MTOW from the A330 structure without in
222 Post contains images Jacobin777 : here are a couple of photos...maybe this might help to distinguish the two..the "new" A350 is certainly one big boy! source:leeham.net source: leeham
223 Post contains images Zvezda : In theory, they could use Kool-Aid reinforced Al-Li. In practice, I don't think that would fly. Definitely not an Airbus photo. The wings and windows
224 Post contains images Jacobin777 : as I mentioned in another thread, had I bothered to take a look at the photo, it clearly states "Leeham.net rendered".. .. I'm sure my Physical Chemi
225 Joni : I've read the A350 development budget was placed at EUR3.5B which is around USD4.5B. Anyhow, since thet haven't started with any tooling, constructio
226 Zvezda : I estimate about 10% of the "old all-new" A350's development budget would already have been spent. There are three ways to improve the operational ef
227 Widebodyphotog : I'll take this one as a two parter... Yes there are many ways to reduce weight, and Airbus claims to have embraced many of them. But the results of t
228 Manni : That Airbus considers new proposals is no longer a rumour. Humbert hinted at this a few weeks ago. That Airbus decided to develop an all new A350 wit
229 Joni : Those all relate specifically to fuel efficiency. Operational efficiency also involves things like turnaround time and maintenance. I've heard that q
230 Post contains links Widebodyphotog : The plane itself has not been in development for 15 year but the design and manufacturing methods have been. The techniques to produce CFRP fuselages
231 SunriseValley : Are there any specifics on what these modifications and the gains will be and the time frame that they will be introduced?
232 Post contains images Astuteman : Except that CASA are virtually already there. I'm convinced that there's a real issue regarding partner worksharing that's really putting the spanner
233 Joni : Ok, now I can at least partially see your point. How the 787 relates to this is still beyond me, however - there are several A380s flying around the
234 Post contains images Zvezda : Absolutely correct. There is no difference from either a design or manufacturing standpoint. Amost certainly true. There may be some minor issues, bu
235 Post contains images JoeCattoli : Boeing fans never had problems to find other reasons so it will be the same for us For example its superiority to the 773ER? Just jokes mates Cheers
236 Post contains links Poitin : Yes, it would, wouldn't it? You has astutely put your finger on the real issue which is the fact Airbus is a political institution. Boeing isn't buil
237 Post contains images Astuteman : From the outside, that's how I read it. Regards
238 Post contains images Poitin : Make a great battery, though. Interested in my Laptop A380/A350 power supply? I'm offering it it to charter customers at not 30%, not 40%, but 50% of
239 Post contains images Atmx2000 : Well I have never seen a signature extolling the virtues of 2-5-2 or 3-3-3, but I have seen a few for 2-4-2.
240 Joni : Didn't they discontinue their workshare allocation system when they formed the integrated Airbus company?
241 Zvezda : Officially, yes. Unofficially, .... It's just the same as AA officially doesn't have a buy exclusively Boeing policy anymore. But unofficially, ....
242 Atmx2000 : Even if they did, I don't think French and German politicians would let things change too much.
243 Joni : Do you have a source they're unofficially still continuing it?
244 Post contains images TP313 : OUCH!!!    There was a reason for the old A350 using an Al-Li fuselage, and that was that Al-Li sections would be introduced later in the A340 asse
245 Post contains images Astuteman : I must admit that makes sense to me Thanks TP313 Regards
246 Post contains images Atmx2000 : Oh, I think it will have something to do with ego, too. There was a lot of poopooing and fearmongering regarding composite airframes by Airbus folks.
247 Post contains images Astuteman : Ego - probably a sub-heading under the "politics" banner, one might imagine Regards
248 Post contains images SunriseValley : Fortunately aircraft manufacturer's bullsh.t cuts no ice with competent fleet planning people in well run airlines. All it does is eat up great gobs
249 Atmx2000 : Perhaps, though I think of politics as more of an issue of internal Airbus/EADS and EU conflicts, while the ego issue has more to do with saving face
250 Stitch : Are SQ's 777-200ERs on a lease with a huge balloon payment? Or are they "Mission: Impossible" specials and self-destruct in five seconds after reachin
251 Poitin : Poker, lad. It is all poker. Mr. Chew is sitting there trying to get a better price and Airbus is trying to get his business and Boeing is sitting ac
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