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Why No Southwest In MSP?  
User currently offlineNW757MSP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 32 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6489 times:

Why does southwest not serve MSP. I beleive if they did they would ring in some big money now that ATA pulled out. I think Humphery terminal would be a great spot for them to start.

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6488 times:

One word: Northwest.

User currently offlineNW757MSP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6488 times:

also as i was looking around i saw this

AirTran

Lindberg Terminal
Gates E1 and E3

Humphrey Terminal
Gates H9 and H10 (starting
May 18)


are they keeping service at Lindberg or pulling out fully?


User currently offlineNW757MSP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6475 times:

Quote:
One word: Northwest.

exactly why they go to humphery...i live in the minneapolis st. paul area. And trust me people dont live off of northwest and half of they people dont even like them


User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6464 times:

Quoting NW757MSP (Reply 3):
exactly why they go to humphery...i live in the minneapolis st. paul area. And trust me people dont live off of northwest and half of they people dont even like them

There aren't any gates at the Humphrey for WN. As it is now I think it'll be a tight squeeze this next winter charter season.

Even over at the Lindbergh Terminal there aren't many free gates open.

pilottim747



Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3508 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6388 times:

I think the answer is fairly obvious...look at the WN route map; notice any glaring absences?

Such as:
DFW
ORD
MSP
EWR
ATL
IAH

Traditionally, Southwest has avoided megahubs such as those listed above. There are obviously exceptions to this (DTW and the recent additions of DEN and PHL for instance), but for the most part, they've elected to use secondary airports whenever possible. I wouldn't count on seeing them in MSP anytime soon (barring the liquidation of a certain Minnesota based carrier).



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineAviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6383 times:

Quoting NW757MSP (Thread starter):
I beleive if they did they would ring in some big money now that ATA pulled out.

airTran is picking up where ATA left off. People who now fly the route probably feel like they are riding in first class. Hopefully, our friends at airTran can keep it together and bring a little something extra to the table besides MDW, ATL, and MCO.

Quoting NW757MSP (Reply 3):
And trust me people dont live off of northwest and half of they people dont even like them

Everybody in Minnesota hates NWA....until they are the cheapest fare out of town.*

*Excluding me. It's not worth the risk.

[Edited 2006-05-09 09:17:20]

User currently offlineWN57787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6361 times:

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 5):
I think the answer is fairly obvious...look at the WN route map; notice any glaring absences?

Such as:
DFW
ORD
MSP
EWR
ATL
IAH

WN has Sirvice in MDW not ORD and DAL not DFW also HOU not IAH
Code-Share with TZ out of DFW.

Give WN time Thay are Only Turning 35yrs of Service this year.


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3508 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6356 times:

Quoting WN57787 (Reply 7):

WN has Sirvice in MDW not ORD and DAL not DFW also HOU not IAH

Yes. I addressed this.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 5):
they've elected to use secondary airports whenever possible.

This use of airport codes instead of city names is really starting to become a problem... Wink



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6342 times:

Another reason Southwest isn't rushing into MSP is that the Twin Cities market already has a fair bit of low-cost service entrenched:

Frontier to Denver & points beyond
Midwest Express to Milwaukee & points beyond
AirTran to Chicago & points beyond (frequent service)
Sun Country to Lord knows where...

Plus, Northwest has historically shown itself to be an extremely fierce competitor. A famous example from the 1990s was Reno Air's flight to MSP from RNO; while it originally was profitable for them, Northwest started operating this route and put lots of capacity on it at ridiculous fares to keep Reno Air out of the Twin Cities market. Similar attempts were made, with varying degrees of success, when Sun Country started scheduled service. It's been assumed by many, I think, that Northwest will do this again if another low-cost carrier makes a major attempt to seize more of the Twin Cities market. Just my $.02.


User currently onlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3187 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

Southwest had their chance when ATA was flying to MSP. I guess it wasn't working out that well. So Airtran moved in.

Is it possible that MSP is not well located for operations for Southwest.
WN focuses on short haul and likes to have a city in reach of a few destinations. MSP doesn't really suit as MDW and OMA are the only close cities.



Why fly non stop when you can connect
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23151 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Thinking specifically about the MSP-MDW market (which WN would surely serve if they start MSP), I wonder if this is a situation where the 737 is a little too big for the route. TZ's 738s (175 seats) were one of their problems, I think. NW and UA are always going to be able to offer more frequency, at least at ORD, because of the smaller planes they have. Of course, WN has made MDW-DTW work in a similar competitive situation.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 9):
Plus, Northwest has historically shown itself to be an extremely fierce competitor. A famous example from the 1990s was Reno Air's flight to MSP from RNO; while it originally was profitable for them, Northwest started operating this route and put lots of capacity on it at ridiculous fares to keep Reno Air out of the Twin Cities market.

And NW paid a fine for that as they lost a subsequent lawsuit filed against them by RenoAir. But you know, it's sort of hypocritical to tell the LCC's they are free to file whatever low fare wherever they want, but when a legacy carrier comes in and tries to do it, their being predatory. I guess that's why I got out of pricing - too much hypocrisy and way too much bereaucracy.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6173 times:

NW threatens the state of Minnesota everytime a resident or visitor to the state mentions the name "Southwest". "Big Brother will hear you!!" one NW employee told me (off the airport grounds, of course). They publically and continually threaten to pick up and move out of Minnesota completely if the airport authority even considers letting WN fly into MSP.

I have always found it ironic that both AA and NW defend their "fortress" hubs religiously (DFW and MSP), yet both face WN competition at their other hub cities without fanfare. Yes, AA uses ORD and WN uses MDW, but NW and WN both fly out of DTW.

As far as routes go, I'm sure MSP-MDW, MSP-DTW, MSP-STL, MSP-MCI, MSP-OMA, MSP-LAS, MSP-PHX, and MSP-BNA would make a good start for WN if they ever could get into Minnesota.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6141 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
NW threatens the state of Minnesota every time a resident or visitor to the state mentions the name "Southwest". "Big Brother will hear you!!" one NW employee told me (off the airport grounds, of course). They publicly and continually threaten to pick up and move out of Minnesota completely if the airport authority even considers letting WN fly into MSP

This is just ridiculous. If this were the case, WN would move to MSP today. That would be perfect for them. I just wonder, if NW says it publicly, why was it something to say "(off airport grounds, of course)?" He might as well have said it in front of NW's CEO.

M


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6500 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6055 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
They publically and continually threaten to pick up and move out of Minnesota completely if the airport authority even considers letting WN fly into MSP.

Can you give one occasion where NWA has threatened to leave MSP if the airport authority gave WN the green light or is this just a grand exageration?


User currently offlineN808NWatMSP From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5984 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
As far as routes go, I'm sure MSP-MDW, MSP-DTW, MSP-STL, MSP-MCI, MSP-OMA, MSP-LAS, MSP-PHX, and MSP-BNA would make a good start for WN if they ever could get into Minnesota.

I agree that all these routes would make a good start for WN at MSP, but many of those routes are already served by other airlines than NW.

MSP-MDW (FL)
MSP-STL (RP)
MSP-LAS (SY)
MSP-PHX (SY)

I am all for WN flying to MSP, but not at the expense of other airlines who are already trying to fight "The Giant." I know that it might increase competition, but to what extent? Doesn't WN aim to flush out the opponents?


User currently offlineNW757MSP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

Quote:
As far as routes go, I'm sure MSP-MDW, MSP-DTW, MSP-STL, MSP-MCI, MSP-OMA, MSP-LAS, MSP-PHX, and MSP-BNA would make a good start for WN if they ever could get into Minnesota.

or even MCO or SEA NW has 6 flights so SEA everyday and each of them are pretty full. ANd 6 flights to LAX i dont know just a thought it would make me happy Big grin


User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

NW is a non-factor, I don't know why anyone would think WN would avoid a specific city because of some old legacy carrier. Their internal planners and analysts do heaps of research on O&D, fares, facility costs, etc...they don't sit in a boardroom and say, "oh we can't serve MSP, Northwest already flies there...lets serve an airport with zero competition."
PHL had plenty of competition from FL, AA, US, UA and others and that didn't stop WN...why would MSP be any different?


User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5904 times:

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 18):
NW is a non-factor, I don't know why anyone would think WN would avoid a specific city because of some old legacy carrier. Their internal planners and analysts do heaps of research on O&D, fares, facility costs, etc...they don't sit in a boardroom and say, "oh we can't serve MSP, Northwest already flies there...lets serve an airport with zero competition."
PHL had plenty of competition from FL, AA, US, UA and others and that didn't stop WN...why would MSP be any different?

This brings us back to the original question. Why does WN not serve MSP? They already fly to lots of cities with just as much if not more competition then MSP. There must be a good reason, but who knows what it is?


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5887 times:

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 6):
Everybody in Minnesota hates NWA....until they are the cheapest fare out of town.*

Thats not true, from what I understand your view is greatly skewed. In fact a lot of people pay more to fly NW because of WorldPerks, and just why does everyone hate NW?

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 6):
*Excluding me. It's not worth the risk.

Whats that suppose to mean?



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5858 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

NW is ruthlessly protective of it's home market, MSP. They have the market well saturated with direct flights to a lot of places (at one point, you could fly direct from MSP to 46 states! It's now only like 43, but that's still a lot...) and have international coverage. WN is NOT going to get me to NRT, or AMS or LGW. With this level of saturation, it is questionable if there is really any room for anyone else.

MSP is a very commercial market, with lots of Fortune 500 companies based here or with large operations here. Airline service feeds commerce. This is not an industrial-type city, where good rail or sea access is more important in facilitating business. At the end of the day, even in down times, the business traveler wants a plethora of non-stop flights offered by a large network carrier, where they earn frequent flyer miles, have the possibility to be upgraded to F seats and have access to airline lounges and clubs. It never hurts to have reliable international service either.

Business travelers do not flock to low-cost carriers. They may have during the latest economic downturns, but not by their own choice. Business travelers want to be treated as business travelers. Even in times when network carriers are in rough shape and aren't offering as good of service as they have in the past, low-cost carriers aren't set up to offer business travelers exactly what they want. Jim-Bob, who is going to see his Uncle Jed in Phoenix may feel at home on a low-cost carrier, as he maybe flies once every 5 yrs., but William Robert, who basically lives on a plane half the year needs to be afforded all the services, benefits and luxuries of a network carrier.

As the economy rebounds, as it is starting to do, business travelers will demand that their employers pay for network carrier service. When companies start to make more money again, and need to do what it takes to keep their employees happy (especially those who travel a lot for business), they will shell out the money.

Is NW perfect? Not by any means. But they have invested a lot in developing the MSP hub, have been headquartered here for many many years (even though it is cheaper to relocate somewhere else), which in turn has helped develop the commercial market of this region as a whole. At least one survey determined that although ticket costs from the MSP market are slightly higher than the national average, we benefit from much higher-than-average number of direct, non-stop flights to and from this market, which tremendously benefits commerce in the region.

Is this to say that WN is a bad airline? NO! They are very good at what they do. Needless to say, they please their customers and take care of their employees, which has helped them be a profitable and growing company for quite a long time. But is their kind of service the right kind of fit for the MSP market? Probably not. If they thought so, they would be here by now.



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12121 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5848 times:
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Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
Can you give one occasion where NWA has threatened to leave MSP if the airport authority gave WN the green light or is this just a grand exageration?

Any airline is free to pick up and leave any airport at anytime. And an airport is not accountable to any one airline, nor should it be.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5830 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 22):

Any airline is free to pick up and leave any airport at anytime. And an airport is not accountable to any one airline, nor should it be.

Yes they can. But also keep in mind how much money the state of Minnesota has put into NW in one way or another. There was the whole bailout loan thing in the early 90's. MSP airport is basically built for NW and it's operations. And NW happens to be one of the largest civilian employers in Minnesota, and even put some desperately needed jobs up north (the Res Call Ctr in Hibbing, and at least for a while the Airbus MX base in Duluth). With some of the loans and other programs, I would imagine they are not totally free to just pick up and leave. The State of Minnesota, and indirectly the residents of Minnesota are somewhat of a stakeholder.



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlinePDXLVR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

There's no way in heck that NW would leave MSP, and I think the threat (assuming it exists) is BS. One, what city is going to be as good a hub for NW, with the facilities that a mega-hub needs? Two, moving would cost money, which NW does not have.


I left my heart in PDX
25 Post contains images N908AW : Abso- -lutely. Just because they're free to doesn't mean they're sanity wouldn't be questioned if they did. They have 85+% of the market and 95% of t
26 Post contains images Isitsafenow : Time for a history lesson. Back in the late 60's there was this fellow named Donald W. Nyrop. He ruled NW with an iron fist and swung alot of weight
27 Post contains images Iowaman : NW still controls more than 80% of the MSP market. F9, FL, and YX are all a drop in the bucket, and SY isn't really much bigger than UA in MSP. They
28 PSU.DTW.SCE : WN doesn't try to be all things to all people. Not every airline will fly everywhere you want to go. If you are going from LAX to SEA to you fly NW? N
29 Acidradio : It is a sizeable route, but it has reached a saturation point. NW, AA and UA will always have plenty of service MSP-MDW/ORD. But add a 4th (or 5th pl
30 AviatorTJ : I'd be willing to bet that more people fly NW on a cheap ticket because they are the lowest price rather than on an expensive ticket because they hav
31 Pilottim747 : The reason FL backed out of the MSP-MDW market because there was WAY to much competition on that route. ATA, AirTran, Northwest and Vanguard were all
32 Supa7E7 : Blah, blah. Do you realize WN has more mainline aircraft than Northwest? WN is Northwest's daddy. If you think the MSP market is fully realized today
33 Post contains links Roadrunner165 : Why does everyone in Minnesota hate NWA? http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...l=us&ct=clnk&cd=9&client=firefox-a Adam
34 Burnsie28 : Weak argument, MSP has plenty of competition, including low fare carriers. I still find a lot of normal priced tickets. From what I understand you wo
35 Iowaman : I can see both ways. It could end up like DTW, where there is such a NW FF base and NW matches WN fares that WN doesn't have a huge operation out of
36 Texan : MSP is being strongly considered. Likely not announced this year, stronger possibility of an announcement next year. There are a few cities ahead of M
37 Ca2ohHP : So I guess MSP and CLT are so far off....everyone said B6 would never get gate space at CLT. You people are talking like MSP is some high-class only a
38 Post contains images Roadrunner165 : -opinion- How many times has Northwest screwed the state and its citizens? Did you read the report I posted? Yes I agree, they have done some good, b
39 Post contains images Texan : Which is funny, since CLT has said that if WN wants to move in tomorrow the airport will find them gate space Texan
40 Goingboeing : Did you know that Southwest started out as 3 planes with no first class and no assigned seats, but did offer hourly flights between Dallas and Housto
41 AviatorTJ : I quoted the part you missed underneath here. Try as you might to prove it, but the general public does not choose its plane tickets like the people
42 Cubsrule : There's plenty of gate space, but it's all international. Why would WN pay for that? Here's the problem WN faces on this CHI-MSP route. First, it's b
43 Post contains images ATAIndy : Yes, because MSP is not located in the Southwestern United States. That was a joke everybody, just a joke. Excuse, me. If everybody hates NW then how
44 Goingboeing : WN could EASILY offer better frequency. They offer half-hourly flights between Dallas and Houston...They offer hourly flights between Kansas City and
45 Cubsrule : Problem is they are not competing against RJs... it's mainline. I also stand by my assertion that FL is the biggest threat to WN on the route.[Edited
46 Congaboy : Not knowing for sure, may I speculate that WN is not at MSP yet because: 1/ The cost model is out of bounds on the high side...I would imagine the MAC
47 Iowaman : WN is the low yield King.
48 Cubsrule : Can you name a city pair where WN competes with 4 other carriers?
49 IcelandairMSP : NW IS NOT THAT BAD. No, seriously. It really isn't. The airline doesn't charge exorbitant prices on every route, by and large customer service is stan
50 IcelandairMSP : Even out of LAS and PHX?
51 NW757MSP : my dad lives out in Virginia beach VA, so i fly into ORF frequently ( or try i mostly get stuck goin to PHF or all the way up to DCA cuz of the price
52 Cloudy : What is your source? Southwest keeps its future expansion plans very secret, especially specific new cities. Very few people know who the front runne
53 IcelandairMSP : I just did three searches for a week in July on Orbitz. The best price was with American, but by no better than $20. But it is a low capacity market
54 NW757MSP : ya but the market for ORF changes frequently...one week a ticket for me will be 250 the next 800...im just saying at one point when i looked thats wha
55 Iowaman : Yes, LAS-LAX (UA, AA, HP, NW) MDW-MSP would work for WN imo because of the fact that WN has a fairly large FF base around MDW, MSP-CHI is a large mar
56 IcelandairMSP : Well that's just how the airlines work. My guess is that, if the prices were way higher than other airlines for a certain week, that NW had sold thro
57 AviatorTJ : You must have missed the post above mine that I was quoting. If you had continued to read on, you would have seen that plenty of locals fly the red t
58 NW757MSP : last summer when ATA served MSP...you could search the option for ORF-MSP..with one stop in MDW..My ticket cost my $225....and at that time because o
59 NW757MSP : No one ever answered this....i saw this the other day Airtran- MSP Lindberg Terminal Gates E1 and E3 Humphrey Terminal Gates H9 and H10 (starting May
60 IcelandairMSP : AirTran announced a few days ago that they were moving into the new HHH terminal. The 2020 plan for MSP calls for Lindbergh to be Skyteam only, so air
61 NW757MSP : interesting, didnt know that, but i do love the HHH terminal it looks so nice
62 DStuntz : I speculate that it's because MSP is the base of another discount carrier -- Sun Country. Likewise, I speculate that Southwest's lack of Denver servic
63 Alphascan : DEN/LAS: Allegiant, Frontier, Ted, US Airways Better rethink that theory.
64 Cubsrule : Allegiant does not serve Denver. 8x UA 320 4x MQ 1x NW 319 11x HP, 1x YV (and 14x WN) 3753 daily passengers, 20 mainline and 5 express flights compet
65 Alphascan : Oops. I saw an Allegiant aircraft on the A concourse at DEN and ASSumed they were LAS bound. Must've been a charter.
66 Post contains links Pilottim747 : Check out this earlier thread for more details. AirTran Moving To The HHH Terminal At MSP (Civil Aviation, Started Fri Apr 28 2006) Airlines currentl
67 Congaboy : Well, MSP may not work for WN to MDW, but other markets could....I do agree with you overall for the reasons I stated above...so IMO, there are many
68 Iowaman : I hope your joking. Come on people, that's like saying WN might pull out of LAS because of Allegiant. What does SY have, 20 flights a day if that out
69 Cubsrule : Considering that LAX is a UA hub, there are "limited connections" available at LAX on AA, and LAS is an HP hub, I don't see how the two are any diffe
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