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US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10040 times:

US Federal Aviation Administration officials have approved three Airbus narrowbody models, including the manufacturer’s corporate aircraft, for 180min extended range twin-engine operations (ETOPS).

The approval covers the A319, A320 and A321 aircraft types and follows a similar decision by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) in 2004.


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ETOPS+to+A319%2c+A320%2c+A321.html

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9994 times:

I assume this clears them for Hawaii flights now, though not sure if the 321 has the legs for it.

Why not the 318? Not enough samples or demand for it to be certified? it has the longest range of all, right?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12570 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9976 times:
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Here's Airbus's press release:
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...releases_items/06_05_09_etops.html

Quote:
A318 ETOPS approval (EASA and FAA) is targeted for 2nd half of this year, leading to the complete Airbus Single Aisle Family to be ETOPS certified by both Authorities.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9904 times:

Thanks. That clears it up. I guess they did it last since it has the fewest examples in the market.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9795 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
it has the longest range of all, right?

Nope, the A319 has the longest range out of the A32X family, followed by the A320, A318 and then A321, IIRC.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9765 times:

Wow, now the A-321 can fly non-stop from MIA to Key West  bigthumbsup 

Just kidding, but they now can fly MIA to DFW.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I assume this clears them for Hawaii flights now

On an A-321, I'll pass.

So, now (at least after the A-318 gets 180 minute ETOPS) all NBs can be ETOPS certified? As I understand it, the B-737NGs are ETOPS certified to 207 minutes? Why the difference?


User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9716 times:
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Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 4):
Nope, the A319 has the longest range out of the A32X family, followed by the A320, A318 and then A321, IIRC.

The A321-200 has more range than the A320 and A319.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2961 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9700 times:

US-Hawaii is an obvious market where the A320-class maybe used but any other places in the world where ETOPS180 would be useful for this aircraft?
I am kind of surprised that it wasn't certified to ETOPS180 already.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
they now can fly MIA to DFW

They could do this even under the old, old rules (w/o ETOPS). The aircraft would just need overwater equipment aboard.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9672 times:

Excellent news for Airbus! This is also very good for PrivatAir, whose LH-marketed flights I can recommend highly.

User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9624 times:

This certification has been asked by Airbus to the FAA , for the first American 319CJ , belonging to Pharmair Corp , replacing a DC9.


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User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9582 times:

Carpethead wrote:

US-Hawaii is an obvious market where the A320-class maybe used but any other places in the world where ETOPS180 would be useful for this aircraft?
I am kind of surprised that it wasn't certified to ETOPS180 already.
~~~~~~~~~~~

It's possible that AC might be interested in using the 320 on YYT-LHR services
to replace the soon-to-be withdrawn 767-300 services (discussed in another thread).



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9547 times:

It's possible that AC might be interested in using the 320 on YYT-LHR services to replace the soon-to-be withdrawn 767-300 services (discussed in another thread).

Just what I was thinking, however I think it was the A319 that was given consideration on that route. I wonder if this would also possibly open up other routes from YHZ/YYT, such as GLA/SNN/DUB, either from AC or Skyservice (another A319 operator). All are theoretically possible, and are shorter than YYZ-BOG (AC's longest A319 route currently) - but reality may be another case.

This could also open up opportunities for JetBlue, but having A320s in service and on order wouldn't allow them to take advantage of the ETOPS operations very much. The A319 and A321-200 with the additional tanks should be able to reach Hawaiian destinations from LGB comfortably.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9477 times:

Quoting Molykote (Reply 6):
The A321-200 has more range than the A320 and A319.

Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/productcompare/

Good to hear, hopefully UA can shave some time off their DEN-ANC flights now and head out over the Gulf of Alaska instead of hugging the coast. Same with HP and F9.

[Edited 2006-05-10 13:39:40]

User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9459 times:

Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

That is the theoretical range, with the additional central tank. But in practice, it turns out that this doesn't improve range much at all because of MTOW restrictions, JetBlue gave up on them reportedley. LongHauler has made a few good posts on this topic - as he is a pilot on the A319/320/321. The additional fuel tanks ended up being much more effective on the A321-200. I remember him stating that the A321 also has better takeoff performance than the A320.


User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9448 times:
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Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...pare/

Check your personal messages although you are correct under certain configurations....



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5192 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9295 times:

This sounds like a segway for F9 to open up some Hawaii flights in the future--now the airlines would have to certify their specific A319/320/321s correct? What flexibility does this add to airlines that already have fleets of ETOPS 757s? Thinner flights I suppose?


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9290 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...pare/

The A321 used there in the comparison is the A321-100 (lower MTOW).
You can have up to 2 ACT's for the basic A319, A320 and A321-200 in the rear cargo bay (and the A319CJ up to 6 in 2 fwd and 4 aft).


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9273 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 16):
The A321 used there in the comparison is the A321-100 (lower MTOW).



Quoting Molykote (Reply 14):
Check your personal messages although you are correct under certain configurations....



Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 13):
I remember him stating that the A321 also has better takeoff performance than the A320.

Thanks Gents . . . .

Learn something new everyday . . . .

So, that begs an interesting question.

Is the 321 now a viable option for carriers that wanted a 757-200 and can't get one?


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9258 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
Carpethead wrote:

US-Hawaii is an obvious market where the A320-class maybe used but any other places in the world where ETOPS180 would be useful for this aircraft?
I am kind of surprised that it wasn't certified to ETOPS180 already.

Does the A320 have the legs for the US-Hawaii market?



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User currently offlineBDL2DCA From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9214 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
It's possible that AC might be interested in using the 320 on YYT-LHR services
to replace the soon-to-be withdrawn 767-300 services (discussed in another thread).

This is possible under ETOPS-120, therefore not related to this announcement.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Good to hear, hopefully UA can shave some time off their DEN-ANC flights now and head out over the Gulf of Alaska instead of hugging the coast. Same with HP and F9.

Again, I'm sure, at most, this would require ETOPS 120, and probably not even that. The issue is most likely the equipment is not equipped for extended over water ops. US (east) maintains EOW 320-series birds. It is probably a matter of time before a US (east) aircraft takes that route over from US (west/HP). I do not believe UA or F9 have EOW 320-series aircraft.



146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9183 times:

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 19):
This is possible under ETOPS-120, therefore not related to this announcement.



Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 19):
Again, I'm sure, at most, this would require ETOPS 120, and probably not even that.

Indeed, as per the Great Circle mapper, both YYT-LHR and West Coast-ANC flights are easily within ETOPS120, heck, the ANC flights are even within ETOPS90.
ETOPS180 really is only required for Hawaii flights, everything else is within shorter ETOPS.


User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9171 times:
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Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Is the 321 now a viable option for carriers that wanted a 757-200 and can't get one?

Within the US this is viable for most routes. However, the A321 is not likely to effectively meet the requirements of certain duty cycles.

The 757 can handle conditions that the A321 can't deal with reliably (high altitude and hot conditions). Even a 757-200 leaves Vail, CO with a substantial payload penalty - An A321 would probably be totally unfeasible on a route like this. SXM is an airport with a lot of famous photos on this site - Take a look at the metal that AA and US send to the Caribbean (generally 757s).

One of the conditions that can occur under the hot and high conditions are N-spool rotor exceedances or EGT (exhaust gas temperature) exceedances. Each engine will operate within a specified limit of rotor speeds (RPM) and EGT. When you increase altitude and temperature you are requiring an engine to work harder to produce a given amount of thrust as it works on the less dense air. I have seen exceedance conditons on even 757s (known for being hot rods) in such conditions. The A321 probably wouldn't have a prayer of staying within operational limitations on a day when the 757 is having trouble.

The 757 has also proven to be a viable transport for transatlantic flights to the east coast. The A321 wouldn't have a prayer on this mission.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9015 times:

You have to remember that just because the FAA approved this type of aircraft for ETOPS, you will not be seeing 319's arriving in HNL tomorrow. It simply opens the door for airlines who choose to, certify their own aircraft, crews and programs for this function. This is still a few months down the road.


146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7988 times:

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 19):
Again, I'm sure, at most, this would require ETOPS 120, and probably not even that. The issue is most likely the equipment is not equipped for extended over water ops. US (east) maintains EOW 320-series birds. It is probably a matter of time before a US (east) aircraft takes that route over from US (west/HP). I do not believe UA or F9 have EOW 320-series aircraft.

Sounds like good news for PHX-Hawaii flights where HP's 757's have really been suffering.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7862 times:

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 15):
This sounds like a segway for F9 to open up some Hawaii flights in the future

From LAX? That's a crowded market. From DEN, it's too far.

I expect UA to take advantage of this, and possibly Virgin America (if they ever get going) and JetBlue.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 18):
Does the A320 have the legs for the US-Hawaii market?

It's shorter than many transcons, though the winds can be a bit stronger in some conditions, and there's no place to do a fuel stop.

I would imagine out of LAX, there would be no problem with A320s, though I'd think A319s to smaller islands might be where we see them, rather than into HNL.

Quoting WJ (Reply 22):
It simply opens the door for airlines who choose to, certify their own aircraft, crews and programs for this function. This is still a few months down the road.

Well, yeah. But it means they can actually start doing it. Carriers that already have ETOPS120 A32X series aircraft and long service histories should have little difficulty getting them ETOPS180 approved. It's getting Airbus repair facilities in HNL that will take more time, i would imagine.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Drerx7 : Is the 319/320 any better? Even HPs lower rated 757s perform better than 319s/320s don't they?
26 Ca2ohHP : The 319/320's are much newer and reliable. Some of the West 757's date back to Eastern Airlines. They're hangar queens.
27 EIRules : I wonder could we see EI using A320s to JFK or BOS in the near future given their ongoing problems with the A330s reliability
28 Drerx7 : Ahh - I though you meant climb/range/performance of the HP757s compaired to the 319s/320
29 Warreng24 : I have never experienced a ground delay on a 757 b/c of a flight computer needing to be reprogrammed!!!!
30 ATAIndy : I thought they used 737 BBJ's, but I might be wrong. -Feister
31 Thenoflyzone : Are the B737 NG certified for ETOPS180? If not, then what are they certified for over 60 mins? AK
32 ORDagent : First I've heard of 330 reliability issues. Can you point me in the right direction for the 411?
33 Laxintl : UA has a 18 aircraft (13 mainline/5 TED) EOW A320 subfleet. Generally cover Caribbean, Florida and occasion Central America flying.
34 DTWAGENT : Now could USAirways us the A-321 on the PHX-HNL run??? or PHL-GLA or SNN?????
35 WJ : PHL-GLA with fuel stops in YHZ and KEF...
36 Timz : Anybody else heard of that? We assume so, since they fly California to Hawaii. And do they still do YVR-HNL?
37 Laxintl : The 777 is 207min ETOPS certified not the 737NG, and only under specific conditions across the Pacific. What Boeing is working on currently is a 330
38 777fan : Aren't the PHX-HNL 752 flights often weight restricted? I suppose you couldn't rule out 319s given what AQ uses to fly to the mainland! I'd still rat
39 Flyboyaz : Not anymore since the MTOW was increased.
40 Ikramerica : And A350/370 as well. Now that Airbus is moving the same direction, look for a strong push by both companies and fewer obstructions by regulatory age
41 Boeing744 : Yes, both Air Pacific and WestJet fly this route with 737-800s. I'm not sure. AC uses their A321s, and A320s (and A319s for that matter) on routes su
42 DAL767400ER : Partially wrong. Privatair DOES use BBJs, but they also use A319CJs as well. Though as said, even ETOPS120 is enough for current Privatair routes, an
43 Ikramerica : Because there is absolutely nowhere to stop between LAX or SFO and Hawaii, and the weather measurements over the thousands of miles of open ocean are
44 Boeing744 : OK, makes sense, thanks for the answer.
45 EIRules : EI have been having issues with their A330s of late. Recently a DXB-DUB flight was delayed for 9 hours due to techs and they had to bring in World Ai
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