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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!  
User currently offlineANNOYEDFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 451 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10021 times:

THIS FROM THE WRONGFULLY TERMINATED DL F/A'S SITE! NOTICE THE WORD OTHERS! SEEMS JETBLUE HAS A NACK FOR FIRING THEIR NON-UNION F/A'S WHEN THEY DON'T GET WHAT THEY WANT!

Remember that JetBlue flight attendant, whose story I posted here a while back?? Well, she left a comment today.? Apparently the FAA is investigating the incident. Here's her comment:

UPDATE:::

I wanted to let you all know....An investigator from the FAA called me to make a sworn, tape recorded statement today. He is investigating JetBlue regarding this issue, and others. I guess where there is smoke, there's fire.

Go ON, Girl!? Stand up for your rights!


"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
137 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANNOYEDFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 10000 times:

For the full story:

Hi All. ?I get a lot of emails from wrongfully terminated flight attendants, but this one stood out to me. ?It is just WRONG! ?So I helped her write the following press release, which I considered titling "Safety is Not JetBlue's Number One Concern" (but that would have sounded rather biased *smirk*)...


JetBlue Flight Attendant Fired For Fatigue

Long Beach, CA, March 23--JetBlue flight attendant Carolyn Livingston was fired last week after being bullied into working a flight that put her over the FAA maximum flight attendant duty period. The company accused her of sleeping on the job. ?She maintains that she was not, although she said she had tried to get herself and her crew released from the flight due to fatigue.

On February 17, Livingston, 35, was lead flight attendant of a four-member cabin crew that was to work a red-eye flight from Long Beach, CA, to Fort Lauderdale, FL, and back the next morning without a break. ?They were scheduled to report to the airport at 8:20pm and take off at 9:20pm. ?The flight was delayed two and a half hours, and didn't leave until 11:30pm.

During the flight, Livingston told the pilots to call the cabin crew in fatigued, as they were too tired to work the return flight back to Long Beach Airport, which would now put them over the FAA maximum 14-hour duty day. ?

When they landed in Fort Lauderdale, an In-flight supervisor met the plane and informed Livingston and her crew that there were no hotel rooms available in Fort Lauderdale, and that they would have to fly them all the way to New York?s JFK airport to get a hotel room if they refused to continue the trip. ?The supervisor also told Livingston that the return flight to Long Beach would have to cancel unless she and her crew agreed to work it.

Livingston?s crewmembers then decided to change their minds and work the return flight back to Long Beach. ?

?At this point I felt pressured to work the flight back, too,? Livingston said. ?The supervisor intimidated me by telling me that they would have to cancel the flight if we didn?t work it. ?Plus, she didn?t seem to want to accept no for an answer. ?She informed us that they wouldn?t be able to get us a hotel room in Fort Lauderdale if we decided to stay.?

Livingston said she finally decided to go ahead and work the flight home, as it seemed to be the easiest solution for everyone involved. ?

Three weeks later, Livingston?s supervisor notified her of a report from a fellow crewmember that stated Livingston had been sleeping on one of the jumpseats in the back galley during the flight back to Long Beach on February 18. ?Sleeping on the jumpseat is a fireable offense at JetBlue. ?Subsequently, Livingston was placed on suspension pending an investigation. ?

On March 16, Livingston was terminated from JetBlue. ?The reason given: sleeping on the jumpseat. ? ?

?I was shocked. ?I absolutely was NOT sleeping on the jumpseat,? Livingston said. ?Management concocted that as an excuse to fire me for attempting to call in fatigued for the flight.?

Fatigue is not a new issue for the airline crews. ?Indeed, it has been a major concern since the dawn of aviation. It is especially important since it impacts airline safety. ?Pilot fatigue has been blamed for many crashes through the years. ?

?Apparently safety is not JetBlue?s number one concern,? Livingston said. ?Otherwise they would have allowed us to call in fatigued and relieved us from the flight. ?I told the oncoming pilots that we had called in fatigued, and they were shocked that In-flight didn't release us. In their opinion that was a complete no-no.?

Not only does crew fatigue impact airline safety, but also crewmembers? health. ?In recent years flight attendant and pilot unions have been trying to push for stricter federal regulations regarding required crew rest and maximum duty days. ?Many airlines like JetBlue, however, find ways to intimidate their employees into flying past the federally mandated daily limits.

Livingston, a single mother, stated she felt she had no chance of appealing to get her job back.

JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin said the company does not comment on crewmembers to the public.

JetBlue flight attendants are not unionized.



"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9885 times:

Can I ask, not to detract from the story, which if true is horrible, but why are you a pissed-off F/A??

User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9885 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
During the flight, Livingston told the pilots to call the cabin crew in fatigued, as they were too tired to work the return flight back to Long Beach Airport, which would now put them over the FAA maximum 14-hour duty day.



Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin said the company does not comment on crewmembers to the public

How convenient for B6.... From the press release by Carolyn Livingston, it seems as if B6 is in breach of FAA regulations. B6 however, choose not to come clean to paying passengers. If B6 breached FAA regulations, I would like to know about it - they are gambling with peoples life’s.

Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9868 times:

And why are there so many question marks?

User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9821 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
but why are you a pissed-off F/A??

Forgive my ignorance, but I can't seem to find the phrase where the thread starter stated that he was a pissed-off F/A. I can see Annoyed F/A from the thread starter's name, but fail to see the PO comment.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1609 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9816 times:

There is no FAA 14-hour maximum duty limit for flight attendants. Also, calling "fatigue" after less than 8-hours on duty probably won't get you very far.

User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9799 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 5):
but fail to see the PO comment.

On his user profile, under "Other info" it says "One pissed FA". I am simply wondering why? I guess I should have made clear where I got it from - I was not putting words into his mouth - I wouldn't dream of it! Hehe.


User currently offlineGritzngravee From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9783 times:

Quoting HS748 (Reply 4):
And why are there so many question marks?

Looks like they kept the editing charaters on. Very wierd I must admit also!!!!

Why are people shocked? It is the capitalistic way, profits over people!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!! If you don't like it move to another country!!!!!!!!

And let's assume your a F/A you go to the airport to report for your flight an hour before departure at 9AM flight leaves at 10AM. An unforseen event occurs that causes the airport to close until 4PM, that's 6 hours gone. Your flight is from JFK to LGB another 6 -7 hours so let's say you've worked a total of 13 hours. Then your next flight is to get repositioned in OAK so you are not working that flight. Then the final flight of the day is OAK to LGA that's 6 hours to 6.5 hours so you have almost worked 20.5 hours in a day. What do you think your supervisor is going to tell you? You got 6 hours of rest during the delay even though you were on the clock. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. My neighbor was an F/A for TWA on all of the JFK Int'l flights and some of the stories she told me were 1,000 times worst than what this lady went through. I'm not saying it is right but how many times do you see one flight attendant successfully challenge an airline and win?!!


User currently offlineStealthpilot From India, joined May 2004, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 6):
There is no FAA 14-hour maximum duty limit for flight attendants. Also, calling "fatigue" after less than 8-hours on duty probably won't get you very far.

I don’t think she complained of fatigue in reference to the first flight to FLL, I believe the F/A was concerned (probably rightfully so) that the crew would be too tired on the unscheduled return flight.

As SA7700 said, If the airline breached any FAA regulations then I would like to know about it. However, as factual as the F/A’s statement may seem, without hearing the other side I will keep my opinions to myself.
eP007



eP007
User currently offlineJBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3180 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9635 times:
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Something doesn't add up here... I can't really put my finger on what it is, but it just doesn't make sense. First of all, if what Gr8 says is true, about there being no 14 hour limit, then the flight attendant really has no grounds to stand on. Beyond that, though, how could management just concoct a story about her sleeping on the jumpseat?

Now, I don't know the supervisor that apparently pressured the crew, but if you think you are putting people's lives in jeopardy, then saying "the supervisor didnt seem to want to take no for an answer" makes it sound like the FA didn't argue her case too much (and understandably, if she was respecting authority).

I'm not defending management, nor the flight attendant. Something just doesn't seem to add up about this...

JBLU


User currently offlineSocalatc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9573 times:

I dont understand how you can get to tired serving drinks for a couple hours. Also, why so many damn question marks???????????

User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9559 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Why did one of her FA colleagues report her for sleeping on the return flight she was trying to get them released from?

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
Three weeks later, Livingston?s supervisor notified her of a report from a fellow crewmember that stated Livingston had been sleeping on one of the jumpseats in the back galley during the flight back to Long Beach on February 18.

Didn't they feel tired after the first flight? Was there animosity between her and this other FA? Didn't she have support from the rest of the crew?



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9516 times:

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
The supervisor intimidated me by telling me that they would have to cancel the flight if we didn?t work it.

Well, they would.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
Otherwise they would have allowed us to call in fatigued and relieved us from the flight.

I don't see anything that implies she was 'forced' to fly. She could have refused and didn't.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
Livingston said she finally decided to go ahead and work the flight home, as it seemed to be the easiest solution for everyone involved. ?

hmmm...I wouldn't be putting that in a press release. So, she just took the 'easiest solution' instead of the right one.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
FAA maximum 14-hour duty day.

Again, if you're going to put this in a press release, you simple must explain what is meant by a 'maximum 14-hour duty day'. There are FAA regs for F/A duty time (FAR 121.467), but you can work 20 hours as long as you have the required 'rest period' before the next duty time. Also, the 2-hour delay probably doesn't count as part of the 'duty day'...so be careful.

All that happens with articles like this is that people like me pick holes in the content....whether it is indeed really correct or not.

Jimbo

[Edited 2006-05-11 23:42:01]


I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1999 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9507 times:

Sure seems to me that we're only hearing a small part of one side of a story. And we're not hearing it very clearly anyway. If this really played out the way it did, why would anyone want to work for B6 anyway? Go work elsewhere and stop being so angry.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9507 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
Sure seems to me that we're only hearing a small part of one side of a story. And we're not hearing it very clearly anyway. If this really played out the way it did, why would anyone want to work for B6 anyway? Go work elsewhere and stop being so angry.

I agree we are hearing the part that best supports there side of the story.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9426 times:

I've been on two jetBlue redeyes, and the flight attendants had very little work to do. The cabin lights were off. Passengers slept. Very few people even got up to go to the bathroom. Looks to me like the ideal assignment for a flight attendant.

On the second redeye, we had a diversion that delayed us over 5 hours, instead of arriving at JFK at 6 am, we got there after 11 am. The flight attendants did have to work extremely hard during the diversion. After the easy redeye part of the trip, they really earned their pay during the last 5 hours of a flight that ended up taking over 10 hours. The flight attendants were wonderful. They never complained or even looked the tiniest bit tired. The diversion was hard work, because everybody was awake, going to the bathroom, asking for food and water, asking questions about the diversion, the kids woke up and were running up and down the aisle, jumping on seats, but the flight attendants were perfect professionals the whole time.

So I have little sympathy for the complaining F/A. If you can't handle a redeye followed by another flight, find another job.

[Edited 2006-05-12 00:07:27]

User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9381 times:

This all just smells like union propaganda against a non-union Airline.

User currently offlineFly2YYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1046 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9370 times:

So I presume then this was basically the only pairing that the crew had was LGB-FLL-LGB, is this right? And they did not have a previous short pairing to do? I am surprised that the FA doesnt have a max duty period.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9335 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
This all just smells like union propaganda against a non-union Airline.

Hit the nail on the head!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5793 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9335 times:

Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 8):
Why are people shocked? It is the capitalistic way, profits over people!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!! If you don't like it move to another country!!!!!!!!

You know, after working with countless deadbeats over the years, all who got the same wages, benefits, and protections as their more capable and hardworking counterparts, I have grown tired of statements like yours.

I'm sure there are many cases of abuse, but after 20+ years of working in food and transportation fields (two rather demanding, irregular schedule-type environments), I've seen that most of the time it is the other way around. "They owe me." "They can't fire me." "I'm tired." etc. etc. etc.

It's one of the reasons that my wife and I have so far not opened our own business - employees nowadays, particularly in the service industry, are often worthless, and if you look at them cross-eyed you get sued.

It's not the country that's the problem - it's the culture.

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 10):
Something just doesn't seem to add up about this...

It NEVER adds up in these things. Look at the name of the threadposter. Agenda?

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 16):
I've been on two jetBlue redeyes, and the flight attendants had very little work to do. The cabin lights were off. Passengers slept. Very few people even got up to go to the bathroom. Looks to me like the ideal assignment for a flight attendant.

I will say this - whether you are working your a$$ off, or just sitting on it, if you are "at work" then it counts. I can think of a million things I'd rather be doing than sitting in a crew lounge or a jumpseat waiting for a delayed flight finally get cleared to depart.

It's called "a job" and it's what you get paid for. If it's easy or hard doesn't matter.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9335 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 3):
If B6 breached FAA regulations, I would like to know about it - they are gambling with peoples life’s.

Oh, please...a sleepy FA or two is not going to make the plane crash.

Seriously, if a FAA regulation has been violated, an investigation is necessary. But let's keep a sense or proportion here, and keep in mind we're only hearing one side of the story in this thread.


User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9313 times:

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 6):
There is no FAA 14-hour maximum duty limit for flight attendants.

Actually, there is a maximum-hour limit imposed by the FAA, I thought it was 16 or 18 hrs tho..

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5337 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9280 times:

Isn't there a union that's trying to organize JetBlue?

User currently offlineANNOYEDFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9238 times:

Ok before I finish reading all the posts to this I will stop and address GR8SLVFLT. You sir are 100% incorrect. I am a Flight Attendant for over 4 years and it is infact regualted by the FAA how many hours we can fly in a single day. You have 0 idea of how our trips are built and worked and all too often airlines with NO UNIONS get away with things like this. Where as at a union airline such as my own they DON'T. At TWA they had guild lines, crew rest for NTA FLTS, and a contract for a union to make sure was upheld. If the FA didn't take action with the union that FA is just plain dumb. I have on MANY occasions been drafted to work beyond my duty limitations and a simple call to crew scheduling cleared it up EVER single time. I have had flights return to gates and the flight been canceled BECAUSE I WOULD OF GONE BEYOND MY DUTY LIMITATIONS and not one single time was the crew questioned. As for your description of a trip. One like that is totally illegal by way of crew rest, and FAA limitations. A crew can infact do a transcon turn but considering round trip flight time is blocked at or over 12 hours if there is any delay such as in this B6 instance the return flight should have been prepared to be recrewed or canceled.

socalatc: A reponce to you! How can we get so tired serving drinks? Our day entails alot more then that sir and people who think like you I have no time, energy or, patience for your sheer ignorance. Grow up and educate yourself about our career if you choose to try and bash it. Oh and how is it you get so tired sitting staring at a computer screen all day doing nothing but trying to make planes not crash into each other? See how stupid that sounds?

Bond007: If she wasen't forced to fly the trip why wasen't a crew waiting AND hotels set up for the entire crew? They told them if they didn't work the flight it would be canceled and they would have to deadhead to NY FOR A HOTEL. When your tired do you want to take a 2:30 minute flight plus a 45 minute bus ride to check into a hotel? Yes the 2 hour delay is factored into you duty day. Your duty day is from CHECK-IN to CHECK-OUT. If you are delayed 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, or 10 hours that is included IN YOUR DUTY DAY! Do you like sitting in a airport for all those hours to have to then go to work and told YOU ARE NOT TIRED OR YOU CAN'T BE TIRED?

Bobster: Your lucky they were probably a overnighting crew our the flight would of been canceled had it been a transcon turn. Just because the one flight you were on out of the thousands I and other flight attendants have worked was easy going doesn't mean they all are. Transcon turns should be prohibited by federal law much like cell phone use on a jet is. They are tiring and most of the time the flight attendants stand around trying to keep each other awake because we are suppose to be ASLEEP!

Airbazar: Smell all you want this is my friends former co-worker. He has spoken to her and the remander of the crew has been intouch with this wrongfully terminated F/A to which not one reported her for sleeping on the J/S. She infact was never asleep. If B6 doesn't like you, your OUT!

I posted this for people to be aware of what really goes behind the scenes. After decades of work we still can't get the simpliest things humanly needed to work...... PROPER REST. We should be like everyone else who has to work a 8-12 hours day.



"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
25 JBLUA320 : I'm sorry Annoyedfa, but I don't see anything in the article that implies the crew didn't have enough rest beforehand for them to be allowed to work a
26 Post contains images KabAir : Ah, AnnoyedFA. I wondered where you had gone I personally am guessing there's a whole lot more to this story than we know. Even if JetBlue is an evil
27 Bond007 : If you are going to be annoyed and write press releases, like I said, make sure you're right, and if you are, explain why. Duty time for F/A's is SCH
28 Gr8SlvrFlt : I repeat, there is no FAA 14-hour duty limit for flight attendants. Many airlines have their limits but there is not one imposed by the FAA. At my air
29 Post contains images ANNOYEDFA : JBLUEA320: Ok how about this.... YOU CAN'T WORK A 20 HOUR TURN!!!! It's against FAA regualtions. Kabair: That is the story! It is what it is! The wome
30 KabAir : AnnoyedFA, You're likely right that her previous gov't position will speed things along for her. I still don't buy that it's the whole story. There's
31 Bond007 : Actually if only you'd all read the regulations. YES, there ARE FAA limits. If I read it correctly 20hrs is only if one stop is outside contig 48 stat
32 ANNOYEDFA : It's the whole story....... I'd like to see her eventually be able to sue them for wrongful termination.
33 KabAir : So you know this for sure? Are you psychic then? Or do you assume that just because someone you know tells you something, that means it's absolutely
34 Laxintl : I believe the whole premise of this post is wrong. Who says its wrongfull termination? Its simply alleged! Let the FA do what she wished to fight it,
35 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : When dealing with a union, how exactly are they even ALLOWED to question you? For better or worse, union representation takes away most flexibility i
36 Bobster2 : The problem seems pretty clear to me. The FA did not call in fatigued before the flight. At that point she presumably could have been accommodated, sa
37 CO767FA : AnnoyedFA: Those who are in the same career understand your point; but the majority who post here are "enthusiasts". Take their opinions with a very s
38 Post contains images Bobster2 : Hey, I watched every episode of "Flight Attendant School".
39 KabAir : CO767FA, I don't think you (or AnnoyedFA) gets it. Trust me, we "understand" the point. But we also understand that this FA may be full of bull crap
40 Bond007 : We're going by what was reported, nothing else, the same as you. Unless you enlighten us on regulations...I may well have interpreted them incorrectl
41 PlanesNTrains : It may. It might also be, though, that she simply is not cut out for the job, doesn't really have an angry disposition, but is used to people being a
42 ANNOYEDFA : CO767FA: I think I am because the posts I am reading seem that they didn't even read the full contents of the letter. It's quite annoying... PlanesNtr
43 KabAir : Okay, I may have to call some shannanigans here... Just looked at JetBlue's website. LGB-FLL is blocked at 4:55 and return at 5:15. So that's a total
44 PlanesNTrains : Well, since most American's are "working people" I would say I wasn't griping about working people. My response was directed at gritzngravee's commen
45 Bobster2 : You'd have to look the schedule for February 18 to be sure that it hasn't changed since then.
46 Post contains images Lightsaber : Again, my flights with B6 have exposed me to very enthusiastic high morale F/A's. So I doubt this is common. Thank you for the good information and fo
47 PlanesNTrains : Interesting. I'll have to look into that, as I've not heard of it before. It's gonna be painful, that's for sure. And everyone will feel it. Everyone
48 MidnightMike : AnnoyFA Couple of things here, the Flight Attendant flew the crew, which by the way, she was legal for, legal to start, legal to finish...... If she
49 ANNOYEDFA : Either way she was F A T I G U E D! The instance that it is mentioned you should be removed from the trip. No if, and, or but. As a crew scheduler you
50 PlanesNTrains : Well that one comment goes a LONG WAYS towards making this a balanced post versus just a one-sided, close-minded rant. I think the big challenge that
51 LTBEWR : An F/A on duty cannot be fatuged to the level where they put the passengers at risk. Even on a 'red eye' they may have to react in seconds to an emerg
52 PlanesNTrains : Just to clarify, by Hot Coffee, I meant as in Spill, not Hot versus Cold. Let me just add - having an F/A in the family, and knowing many people in t
53 L-188 : You know what I find fascinating. ALL this talk about federal regulations and I have only seen one person quote an actual regulation (Actually a part
54 Apodino : While AnnoyedFA lost much of my respect based on his attitude in dealing with CO (offenses that if he were identified could be terminable in my opinio
55 Wjcandee : Okey, dokey. So, she could have been "on duty" and deadheading to NY, which is about 2.5 hours away, because she was so fatigued. Deadheading means t
56 ANNOYEDFA : Once again your WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Deadheading means you ARE ON DUTY! You are a working flight attendant in a passenger seat. You can't drink, only sl
57 Post contains images Bobster2 : Where did you read that? The story gets exaggerated every time it's retold. At least the pilots can sleep during the flight even if the F/A's can't.
58 N702ML : Ugh.... Annoyed FA is getting on my nerves BIG TIME. I, too, am a flight attendant. I guess I made the right decision going to work for a unionized ai
59 Post contains images Stealthpilot : Apodino = Thank you !!! It does. A whole bunch of people are writing about how ‘fatigued’ she was and how it’s a relative/personal state but all
60 Lightsaber : Very astute point that I 2nd. Please explain in a differnt way from the passangers perspective why this is an egregious error and not a difference of
61 PlanesNTrains : And to expand on that, if you have an employee who is of questionable performance or integrity, and you've done all you can to coach them, you unfort
62 Wjcandee : Same for oil. And not to repeat Warren Buffett too much, but I loved his latest analogy about real estate, metals and oil. To paraphrase, he said tha
63 Jetdeltamsy : Ugh. That's why some of us are a little sensitive about the perception people have of what we do. WE ARE THERE FOR YOUR SAFETY AND MUST BE ALERT AND
64 Post contains images Glideslope : Could not agree more. Oh, and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Unions are DOA.
65 Post contains images Glideslope : Wonderful imagery in this. Thanks, I enjoyed it.
66 Icebird757 : Looks like I will have to go back and see if this was my flight. Wonder what the delay was? I don't recall 243 ever being delayed that long yet this
67 SpazolaJBLULGB : Sorry Carolyn you got canned but I know for a fact it takes alot to get fired here at "THE BLUE JET". Working as a mechanic here for over 4 years I've
68 B797 : Please dont try to sound as if you know something when you really dont.
69 Bond007 : Well, as I said before - you need to substantiate what you're saying when you simply quote "It does" ! The F/A duty day is clearly a 'scheduled' day,
70 Tbird : There's always three sides to every story "your's, there's and the truth." If in fact there was report by another crew member of her sleeping then the
71 InTheSky74 : I have heard about this case, and all I have to say is that all three other flight attendants working with this girl reported her to management that s
72 CRJ 900 : I worked a trip the other day that was a YYZ-YQR roundtrip and then we were to operate YYZ-IAH and overnite (sched 13h 20min duty). The very first leg
73 MidnightMike : The interesting part is that the Flight Attendants reported her to the company as sleeping on duty, and yet, the dismissed Flight Attendant denies th
74 Post contains images AR385 : I could have not written the above better. I find that a lot of us "enthusiasts" are dismissed simply because SOME F/A's think our attitude is that o
75 Post contains images ANNOYEDFA : N702ML: Who said I worked for them? I would never work for a non-union airline and if you had a look at their trips you woulden't want to work for the
76 Luv2fly : What I find IRONIC is that the FA that was actually looking out for the safety of the passengers and caught this act on her camera phone you want thi
77 KabAir : Some cell phones allow you to use certain functions (like taking pictures) without turning on the "phone" part of the phone if that makes sense. ie,
78 DTWAGENT : Either way. If B6 is doing this to their flight crews, then thay are taking peoples lives at stake.....I know of some SWA F/A I have over heard talkin
79 FA4B6 : Its not a matter of if they liked her or not, its a matter of safety and sleeping on the jumpseat is unsafe, against what is written in our FAM, it p
80 VEEREF : Nobody here really knows the "whole story". But the bottom line is if the F/A knew ahead of time the pairing would exceed the maximum duty day that F/
81 EWRCabincrew : To add fuel to this fire...at CO, F/As domestically can be SCHEDULED to be on duty 14:00 hours up to 16:30 hours UNscheduled (read: INCLUDING delays r
82 Ca2ohHP : I thought B6 F/A's just served blue chips and soda, boredom would probably make me fall asleep too.
83 Bond007 : Right, but company policies can only be more restrictive as (or the same as) Part 121 regs. Jimbo
84 Apodino : It isn't written anywhere. But it can be implied from information in the article. I know at my airline, the flight attendants and the pilots stay tog
85 Post contains links EWRCabincrew : I found this link. Hope it helps clarify. It's in governmental legalese. http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...v/cfr_2005/janqtr/14cfr135.273.htm
86 B6flyboy : I work for JetBlue in FLL....I work airport operations and I have worked the LGB turn flight. Everytime I have worked that flight there is always a ne
87 Bobster2 : The maximum flight hours depend on how many flight attendants are on the plane. Very interesting! That means, if one FA claims to be fatigued in the
88 MidnightMike : That is a very fair comment.......
89 EWRCabincrew : Potentially, yes. But, again, as long as the door is closed, the show must go on. If a F/A gets tired, I can assure you the others would pick up the
90 Bobster2 : Nevermind. EWR gave a link to 14CFR135.273 and that isn't even relevant here. I didn't realize when I posted my previous message.[Edited 2006-05-12 21
91 ANNOYEDFA : Sorry EWRcabincrew but I woulden't let the door be closed a minute prior to my expiring. I refuse to work when I am tired thats why these rules are se
92 Stealthpilot : You said ...... Sorry if there was any confusion in what I said, but I don�t believe my statement was wrong: From Sec.135.273 Duty period limita
93 Laxintl : ANNOYEDFA with your such positive attitude towards your company and the customers, I hope you get what is coming to you soon. With some luck your empl
94 Post contains images Lightsaber : And what had she done to turn the other 3 F/A's against her?!? There is a lot more to this story than the little the union people are saying. I'm not
95 Bobster2 : correction (now too late to edit): Nevermind. EWRcabincrew gave a link to 14CFR135.273 and that isn't even relevant here. I didn't realize when I post
96 Post contains images ANNOYEDFA : Airplane mode is NOT approved I asked my supervisor.... Oh and thanks LAXINTL   always love complements![Edited 2006-05-12 21:41:35]
97 EWRCabincrew : In a perfect world, you are right. However, since none of us live or work there we do what we do on day to day, flight to flight instances. When you
98 KabAir : AnnoyedFA, I wish I could be as lazy as you on the job and in my studies. "Sorry sir, you're going to have to check your own prostate. But I'll let yo
99 CO767FA : That's just plain rude. You don't like what AnnoyedFA has to say, don't read it; but to imply s/he is "lazy" isn't appropriate. I'm sure if we did as
100 KabAir : I disagree. I think it's totally appropriate. Read what he said a few posts back and on other threads. Quote: " No I don't have to stow your bag! You
101 ANNOYEDFA : I am not lazy at my job or in my OWN studies. I simply play by the book. Just like everyone else in my field tries to do. If I lift your 100 pound bag
102 Post contains images WarmNuts : Wow. With all due respect, your attitude is demonstrative of the reason pax switch carriers. In all fairness, your response seems equally demonstrati
103 Post contains links and images Lightsaber : Really, then why does my Motorola manual clearly note that this brings my cell phone in legal compliance with all FAA requirements and allows the cus
104 EWRCabincrew : Since we have "alias" names, I have probably worked with AnnoyedFA, one thing I can say is that I have respect for what he believes in, whether or not
105 PlanesNTrains : Wow...It's like that scene between Tom Cruise and Jack Nickolson in "A Few Good Men" where Jack has his meltdown in the courtroom. Everyone just kind
106 Post contains images KabAir : But is this the same reason you won't get a blanket for a passenger who wants one? God forbid you throw your back out lifting a 10 oz blanket
107 AR385 : Boy, isn't that paragraph a bunch of arrogant, pedantic crap The problem is that everybody here appears to be disrespectful to you, when they are jus
108 Post contains images ANNOYEDFA : Listen guys..... Closely, half the garbage you have spewed to me is exactly that. You can call me names bash me whatever you choose to do it still doe
109 Icebird757 : ANNOYEDFA: Your attitude is exactly what ends up seperating the different departments at an airline and why people don't get along. I hope the next ti
110 StuckInCA : That ought to pretty much wrap up this thread. One person understands you. My thoughts exactly. I can't imagine working a job that made me that angry
111 KabAir : Yeah, God forbid you actually do your job and serve the customer which is what you're paid to do in addition to safety stuff (though with your attitu
112 KabAir : Wow, so basically what you're saying is that you're just using your airline so that you can travel. Forget that they're actually paying you to do a j
113 Bond007 : No, not in most cases. Read the rest of FAR 121.467. Yes, the day begins when the she reports for work, but .... Jimbo
114 Wjcandee : "FOLLOW ME!"
115 Par13del : Took me a while to read the entire thread, there are some good points but the thread has gone way off course. There are persons on this site who are a
116 Wjcandee : Par13: I think it's pretty clear from reading the facts recited as well as the actual Part 121 regs that the crew was legal as to time. This is why An
117 ASApilot : There may be some people on here that have something to say about the situation, but really, JetBlue's biggest mistake was hiring Vicki Escarra (spel
118 Par13del : Thanks WjCandee, sorry if I made it sound that I agreed that the crew was not legal, so far we only have one side of the story so I chose not to take
119 Wjcandee : No apology necessary; I thought it was a good, fair, reasoned, balanced post. Best, Bill
120 AR385 : I asked a question that you misconstrued as an insult. And that has been a problem throughout this thread for you. Now, wherever did you get the idea
121 FLFlyGuy : This post has gone kind of off-topic. Let me try to explain the duty day legality, because people have been taking bits and pieces of it but not put i
122 InTheSky74 : BTW - At JetBlue - Airplane Mode on Cell Phones IS approved. It has been stated many times.... Whomever told you it is not, is incorrect. Rob
123 Apodino : Since you don't give anything, I hope you don't get anything either. And I work for the airlines and let me tell you some things I have done. One tim
124 Molykote : I couldn't agree with this more. I work as an engineer handling AOG support issues and 95% of the time I never see a customer while performing my job
125 Post contains images Stealthpilot : I first want to thank both FLFlyGuy and Wjcandee for their posts ; they were both very informative, even though they were slightly contradictory I gue
126 Post contains links Bond007 : Well you must agree with that statement for both legs. It is simply cut and pasted from the FARs. Well, let's make sure you're reading the FARs corre
127 Post contains links Wjcandee : I appreciate your analysis, as well as that of FLFlyGuy. I am personally at a loss as to where the 16 hour limitation comes from that he mentions, un
128 Wjcandee : Well, looks like Jimbo and I did the same thing tonight, and he beat me to the punch with the citation to the letter. It sort of sucks that one can't
129 Post contains images Lightsaber : Most excellent post. Thank you for the analysis. Unfortunately true. I must vouch for this. I see this again and again. More than once I've seen unio
130 Post contains images Stealthpilot : " target=_blank>http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_i...p.DOC " target=_blank>www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiati...p.DOC Bond007 and Wjcandee, thank
131 Wjcandee : Nah. I thought that you did a good job of trying to reconcile what various posters were saying. And one thing that always concerns me when I read the
132 NASBWI : Ok, without the whole quoting thing, I just want to thank WarmNuts for post 102. You're definitely on my respected users list. I know everyone and the
133 ANNOYEDFA : NASBWI: *sigh* finally someone understands me! Oh and by the way I hurt my back doing something else on the flight. Remember I don't touch any bag but
134 Apodino : Hey ANNOYEDFA, ever heard of workmans comp?
135 ANNOYEDFA : Yeah I'm on it and I still don't make what I should be making....
136 FutureFO : FAA mandated duty time is 16 hours maximum. With a minimum rest of 8 hours. Most airlines if not all in the US have a max of 14 hours allowing for res
137 Wjcandee : This is actually not correct. Have a look at the discussion above. Look at the FARs. Read the Pinnacle opinion letter written by the FAA. You're maki
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