Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov  
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ally+low'+Air+France+airport.html

Irish budget carrier Ryanair has lodged a complaint with the European Commission (EC), protesting against the level of domestic airport and landing fees paid by Air France.

(...)

Ryanair claims that Air France has, over the �past number of years�, received approximately �1 billion ($1.3 billion) in �illegal state aid� as domestic passenger and landing charges are �often up to 50% lower� than on international European routes.

(...)

O�Leary also complained about the public service obligation route system in France, which he believes is �misused widely� to benefit Air France, blocking competition on some international routes.


Interesting that they are complaining. Wonder what will happen. However, some questions raised to me.

First, they talk about PSO's blocking competition on international routes. But can't PSO's only be issued for domestic flights (ie. corsica-mainland Franc)?

The other question about the 50% lower price for domestic flights.

1. Why is this?
2. Is 50% discount so special? Although not often listed, I found for example for Kaunas (Lithuania) also that there is a 50% difference ( http://www.kaunasair.lt/index.php?lang=2&m=3&p=370 ) and I recall having read it before.

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYULMRS From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Landing fees paid by Af ... Is this a joke ?

Well, i think O'Leary has a very short term memory, a kind of ability to forget thing when he wants ... FR had a double daily flight from London (from STN, but i may be wrong) to Strasbourg which was suspended when the chamber of commerce of Strasbourg suspended it's subsidy ...

Quoting Joost (Thread starter):
First, they talk about PSO's blocking competition on international routes. But can't PSO's only be issued for domestic flights (ie. corsica-mainland Franc)?

We know that EZY had to cancel the launch of an ORY-AJA service because of the PSO, but i don't see any example of an international service cancelled or suspended.



To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

Quoting Joost (Thread starter):
Interesting that they are complaining

I can understand clearly why FR is complaining. AF is quite happy to pay subsidised domestic airport and landing fees, but when they learn someone else might also be benefiting from similar subsidies, they are the first to kick up a fuss. Typical hypocrites.

And the public service obligation route system? It is simply a disguise for Air France to be protected by the French Government, just like a mother hen protects her chicks. The French (and Italians) are happy to accept rules set by the EEC as long as they do not apply on their home ground.

Are the French so worried that an Irish airline, creating a small base in their country with a handful of aircraft and a few employees, is so efficient that they pose a very serious threat to the state carrier?



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineAlanUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 1):
Well, i think O'Leary has a very short term memory, a kind of ability to forget thing when he wants ... FR had a double daily flight from London (from STN, but i may be wrong) to Strasbourg which was suspended when the chamber of commerce of Strasbourg suspended it's subsidy ...

And the reason the Alsace region stopped the subsidies? Because Air France took legal action against the Chamber of Commerce of Strasbourg for giving it out in the first place! Which is of course the right thing for Air France to have done. Why should an airline receive money from the taxpayers to fly places?

It has happened before and probably still happens right now. The Alsace region wanted to boost tourism and commerce to the area, and saw in Ryanair the perfect opportunity for growth. But following the legal battle, Ryanair was made to pay all the aid back and pull out of SXB altogether.

This latest legal affair from Ryanair against AF-KLM is a "pay-back" time revenge call from the Irish no-frills airline.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4763533.stm

Alan.


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Rubbish,
Just some more free advertising for MOL. You would have thought the media would have caught on by now.

As AF has pointed out the prices for domestic and international flights are different - but they are the same for all carriers. FR's domestic flights pay the same as AF's domestic flights.

It's been suggested that this is a pre-emptive strike - because FR has negotiated 'special' arrangements at MRS that are not available to Air France (and other airlines), and they want to distract the regulators from this. However I haven't seen any evidence to support this suggestion.

By EC rules all PSOs must be put out for tender and are not simply awarded to the national carrier. In Italy, for example, a number of the PSO routes are operated by IG. The results of the tender are also published in the Official Journal of the EC and this includes the agreement between the national authority and the airline. Nothing under the table. I suspect that the reason why LCCs have not been interested in PSOs is because of the obligations of providing a year-round minimum level of service. Their business model doesn't support this.

Not knowing the route dynamics of any of the PSO routes it is difficult to know if the islanders (or whatever) are better off with higher prices, but with guaranteed levels of service - or with lower prices with no guarantee that there will be any service from one scheduling period to the next.


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

It's really laughable. The company which comes to an airport only if it receives local subsidies (like in Strasbourg) is now complaining about "low landing fees".


???????????????????????


User currently offlineOlympicbis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2946 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
Typical hypocrites

O' Leary is the biggest hypocrit around, since he had his junk airline subsidized by the Wallonia federal governement in Belgium to operate from Charleroi ( sorry Brussels South... ) The European Commission ruled that he had to pay this aid / subsidy back. What a miserable crook...


User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
And the public service obligation route system? It is simply a disguise for Air France to be protected by the French Government, just like a mother hen protects her chicks. The French (and Italians) are happy to accept rules set by the EEC as long as they do not apply on their home ground.

I am sorry but it reveals you really don't know how it works!!
ANother in reply 4 explains already the system and I just want to add these routes are often a disaster to operate.

Moreover, as far as France is concerned the PSO routes to the French West Indies and French Guyana are NOT generating loads of cash!
if that was the case AF would not introduce a 3-4-3 eco configured 777 on these destinations!!!

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
Are the French so worried that an Irish airline, creating a small base in their country with a handful of aircraft and a few employees, is so efficient that they pose a very serious threat to the state carrier?

No, we are afraid that by creating predecents and shutting our mouths when we don't like stuff, the air service is degenerating to horrid ryanairesque levels



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 6):
What a miserable crook...

So you believe that by negotiating a business deal with Charleroi Airport's managers, who wanted FR to use their under utilised airport and bring in thousands of passengers who might then spend money in the area or at the airport, and then sticking to his part of the bargain, MOL is a crook? What is his offence? It was Charleroi Airport's managers who the EEC ruled had acted improperly by offering the subsidies that apparently were not theirs to offer. Of course, there is nothing wrong with the Italians, Greeks etc subsidising their own airlines.

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 6):
junk airline

Well I hardly think that it can be a "junk" airline if an average of 77,000 passengers use it every day, and the airline is highly profitable. True they offer no frills, and perhaps could improve their customer relations, but they have enabled me and many others who normally VFR once or twice a year, to now VFR far more frequently. Last time I VFRd the fare on FR was €35 inclusive of taxes. Legacy carriers used to charge a minimum of €500, and insisted that I had to stay a Saturday night otherwise the fare doubled.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2897 times:

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 7):
shutting our mouths when we don't like stuff

Are you saying that all French people do not want to be able to fly cheaply and prefer to pay twice for their air fares - first through the fare paid to the airline (i.e. Air France) and then by subsidies (that their Government gives AF from the revenue raised from tax the French pay)? Strange people the French, but then I am a Rostbif!

[Edited 2006-05-12 13:56:58]


MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4126 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2897 times:

For everyone who is interested in the topic please read "case Charleroi". In this case, the European Commission clearly described what subsidies and "incentive programs by the airports" are allowed and which are not.

I can only support Ryanair in this case. Air France last week was complaining against Basel/Mulhouse airport and its tariff system- and got backed by the French judges. This in a complete contradiction to the guidelines that exist since "case Charleroi". The decision of the French court is a complete fuss since it is against European law.

It is about time that there is more competition in France. Gladly, with easyJet and Ryanair, there are now two strong airlines who do not accept Air France's monopoly and the discrimination it sees from French government, judges and other governmental organisations such as the slot coordination.

Regards,
RJ100 (who flies Air France in a week lol  )

[Edited 2006-05-12 13:53:07]


none
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 9):
subsidies (that their Government gives AF from the revenue raised from tax the French pay)

I'm not in the business, but what are these subsidies ??
I doubt it would be allowed by the European comission. Have you anything to prove what you say ?


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 10):
other governmental organisations such as the slot coordination.

Sorry but COHOR is not run by the French Government. It is independant of the French state and allocates slots in accordance with EC Regulation 95/93 (as amended).


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 1):
Well, i think O'Leary has a very short term memory, a kind of ability to forget thing when he wants ... FR had a double daily flight from London (from STN, but i may be wrong) to Strasbourg which was suspended when the chamber of commerce of Strasbourg suspended it's subsidy ...

So, well? It was ruled that he could not get a subsidy. A subsidy issued by the COC, so they were willing to pay it. Without the subsidy, it evidently was not a viable business case, so he withdrew. What's wrong?

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 3):
Why should an airline receive money from the taxpayers to fly places?

Okay, just wait a second... O'Leary had to pay back subsidies because they were illegal, and he did. Now, he feels AF gets subsidies - why shouldn't he complain? He had to pay it back after AF brought him to court - isn't it a logical reaction?


You give the anwer yourself: to boost tourism. There are rules about that, especially after the Charleroi case, and one of the most important is that the subsidies must be open for all carriers. Many, many, many regions support their airport financially. Nothing wrong with that, when it's ruled well.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 5):
It's really laughable. The company which comes to an airport only if it receives local subsidies (like in Strasbourg) is now complaining about "low landing fees".



Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 6):
O' Leary is the biggest hypocrit around, since he had his junk airline subsidized by the Wallonia federal governement in Belgium to operate from Charleroi ( sorry Brussels South... ) The European Commission ruled that he had to pay this aid / subsidy back. What a miserable crook...


User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4126 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 12):
Sorry but COHOR is not run by the French Government. It is independant of the French state and allocates slots in accordance with EC Regulation 95/93 (as amended).

I stand corrected then.
But you get the point what I want to say. It is a fact that AF gets backed by the government wherever it is possible!

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

France is among the curruptest countries in Europe -the most recent scandals about "Clearstream" are just a tiny indicator on how politics,national stratetic business ,secret services and "filiéres" are inter-related.
Air France is a master-piece of french protection strategy and nobody can seriously mange to put anything forward against AF- the big boys will always prevail.
It started already under the socialists who put about 10 Billion FF into (1,5 B € ) bancrupt AF -tax payer money that was- to keep the company afloat.
Yes there is free competition in France but slots in key airports are still handled in souspicious ways -while local airport management is kept in the hands of circles that are rarely in opposition to the Paris Governement(s ).
It's either people lile Vivendi-Keolia-CCI's who get the airports or so called "Sydicats mixed" composed of mayors of cities close to an airport. They don't have a clue on how to run an airport but want to keep the political hands over a strategic location and developpement tool.(see Nîmes..)
Foreign service-companies don't play any role in french airport management (like in Brussels where australians run the show..)
Ryanair are fully right to complain ,since the facts are demonstratable.Air France enjoys a complacency among french politicians that might be comparable to other European national airlines but which is in contradiction to european competetive law.
You have to understand the complexity of the french political machinery to realize how rotten the sytame is.
Just a most recent example -the judge who was supposed to instruct a commission scandal involving french politicians during the sale of war-ships to Taiwan,endorsed anonymous letters accusing some politicians from an ex-EADS manager .....



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Ah ... Beaucaire and his "mafia is everywhere" theories ...

User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 16):
Ah ... Beaucaire and his "mafia is everywhere" theories ...

If you follow the most recent news in french politics you cant' deny....
TV is not neccessarily the best media to discover the truth.
I still do love the country -that's why I live here -but that does not mean I believe all the crap distributed by journalists that are in the pockets of the owners of TV stations or news-papers.
You can always try to consider Air France as a normal airline -which is true in the pure legal sense - but there are just to many "co-incidents " that just maintain my suspicions.
That saying I maintain my very good opinion about Air France as a great service-provider and safe airline.On-bord service is quite good in comparison with other network carriers and prices on long-haul are competetive.
But as Ryanair indicate,their revenue on domestic and european flights are over the top and in no relation to the prices quoted for intercontinental services.


L’Index des Perceptions de la Corruption

Classement Pays Score
1 Danemark 10,0
2 Finlande 9,6
3 Suède 9,5
4 Nouvelle-Zélande 9,4
5 Islande 9,3
6 Canada 9,2
7 Singapour 9,1
8 Pays-Bas/Norvège 9,0
10 Suisse 8,9
11 Australie/Luxembourg/Royaume-Uni 8,7
14 Irlande 8,2
15 Allemagne 7,9
16 Hong-Kong 7,8
17 Autriche/Etats-Unis 7,5
19 Israël 7,2
20 Chili 6,8
21 France 6,7
22 Portugal 6,5
23 Botswana 6,1
Source : Transparency International
Ce classement est basé sur les perceptions du degré de corruption régnant dans les divers pays. Les perceptions sont celles des hommes d'affaires, de spécialistes du risque-pays et du grand public et les scores s'échelonnent de 10 (pays très propre) à 0 (pays très corrompu).

[Edited 2006-05-12 15:13:18]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 9):
Are you saying that all French people do not want to be able to fly cheaply and prefer to pay twice for their air fares

strangely enough whenever I fly ORY-NCE-ORY, EZ is more expensive than AF, so much for the cheaper theory....

Quoting BCAL (Reply 9):
fly cheaply

well I think indeed this should be interepreted to the full extent....
if you mean rude and scarce service, no seat assignment, flying from Paris-Beauvais (gimme a break 100km from downtown) then I can say a majority of the French doesn't want a downward evolution.

also to finish with, yes you are a Rosbif not a Rostbif  Wink

Beaucaire: vas-y nous prend pas la tête!



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
strangely enough whenever I fly ORY-NCE-ORY, EZ is more expensive than AF, so much for the cheaper theory....

If you fly Sunday 14th may from ORY to NCE and back on the 16th,on Easyjet it is 251 €/return all inclusive. Air France is 451 €/all inclusive....



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
whenever I fly ORY-NCE-ORY, EZ is more expensive than AF

I have often found EZ's fares on par or more expensive than BA, but that is normally when you book late or chose to travel at a peak period. If you are flexible with your travel dates, book early, and check for special deals, you will normally find fares well below the legacy carriers. If the LCCs' fares were always more expensive than the legacy carriers, they would not be in business. In any event, are the legacy carriers not reducing their fares to remain competitive with the LCCs?

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
if you mean rude and scarce service, no seat assignment, flying from Paris-Beauvais

Are you saying that on every FR flight the service is rude? Whilst you might occasionally come across a rude F/A or ground agent, this is the exception rather than the rule. I have always found FR F/As helpful, polite, and professional. The ground agents are normally the same teams that handle the legacy carriers at some airports, so there is no difference in standards of service there.

Excepting seat assignments and perhaps limited assistance on the odd occasions when things might not go according to plan, the only major differences in service are that the LCCs do not offer any 'free' in-flight meal or beverage, no IFE and no 'free' newspaper. So what? The flight is normally short and you only paid €35 for the fare, so why should you expect a free cup of coffee? I hate unassigned seats too, but if I am saving a significant amount in the air fare, I can live with it. Besides, people board quicker and that can mean a faster departure, so less likelihood of a delay.

You know that FR flies from secondary airports before you travel with them. If this is inconvenient, and not worth the saving, fly with someone else. Why is it assumed that everyone lives in a centre of a town and wants to travel to the centre of another town? Some passengers must live nearer (say) Beauvais than CDG, so that airport might perhaps be more convenient for them. Besides, this thread is talking about Marseilles. FR is not flying to Genoa (Marseilles East). It is using the same airport as AF.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
yes you are a Rosbif not a Rostbif

 embarrassed 

A.net spell checker said it was Rostbif so I am innocent!!!!




MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 77
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2639 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 19):
If you fly Sunday 14th may from ORY to NCE and back on the 16th,on Easyjet it is 251 €/return all inclusive. Air France is 451 €/all inclusive....

And if you fly ORY-NCE on saturday 20th and return on Monday 22nd, the AF fare is ...205€...which is a measly 46€ cheaper than the EasyJet fare you quoted.
And if you booked now a trip in November, I'm sure you could go as low as 116€ return.( By the way, you forgot to mention that the ORY-NCE fare was 58€ on that day and because of heavy loads the NCE-ORY was 394€)

(all above fares include taxes,which mister O'L never quotes)

That's the beauty of a good yield management system

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
that does not mean I believe all the crap distributed by journalists that are in the pockets of the owners of TV stations or news-papers

Are you quoting the UK where mister Murdoch all but controls 75% of the media, the Italy of signor Berlusconi or the USa of (again) mister Murdoch and Co ?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
You can always try to consider Air France as a normal airline -which is true in the pure legal sense - but there are just to many "co-incidents " that just maintain my suspicions.

You said it :"suspicions", with a modicum of prejudice.
I'll be happy, and others too, I "suspect", to open an argument on the subject.
Your call.

Before we go any further, Air France is far more concerned with the TGV in France, and EK internationally, than it is with the LCCs :Only 30% of AF traffic is comparable to the LCC service (short and medium point-to-point) and on these, a lot doesn't present any interest for the LCCs (POS lines in particular).
On the majority of these connections, AF is able to give them a run for their money and the major lines are already quite crowded.
That said,there is a bright future for the LCCs in Europe and I personally admire their drive. What annoys me is Mr O'L's vulgarity and his publicity stunts.

[Edited 2006-05-12 17:09:32]


Contrail designer
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
What annoys me is Mr O'L's vulgarity and his publicity stunts.

Take them with a pinch of salt. When in public, he often opens his mouth before thinking and is speaking what is on his mind. At work, he is direct and can be abrupt. Privately, he is rumoured to be a calm, pleasant and sort of person you would want for a friend. MOL shuns publicity and, unlike Branson, he does not like a camera to be shoved at his face or up his ar*e wherever he goes.

Like you, I originally thought MOL's publicity stunts were rude and vulgar. Now I think some of them are brilliant and direct to the point. Besides, he got you talking, so his publicity must be effective!



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4713 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

Don't you love MOL, too ?

First he rants at the EC in the worst way possible, now he seeks its help.

I'm eager to see the reults of this...



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2575 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

BCAL,
Thanks for reminding me to be more objective.
But how can I trust someone who "opens his mouth before thinking" ?



Contrail designer
25 Post contains images BCAL : Better having someone who says what is on their mind rather than someone who lies, n'est ce pas?
26 Beaucaire : It is not because the UK or Italy have a deplorable monopoly in media-dominance that France has to imitate bad habits -one should thrive for better s
27 Olympicbis : Oh no, he is not a crook for that, there are so many other reasons why he is a crook. As far as Charleroi being underutilized, if there was no Ryanai
28 Trekster : Im getting really annoyed with mr FR He keeps basing the BA Longhaul Fuel charge on there euro routes. And keeps going on about it. They have there se
29 Pihero : Examples, then please ! The Saturday rule no longer applies with Air france, which has gone to a lot more advanced Yield management system. You must
30 BCAL : I was dreading my first flight with FR, but the experience was nothing like I had expected. The plane was clean and looked well maintained, F/As demo
31 Olympicbis : I am afraid there are many more people than that who were left where they were, I have read enough testimonies on sites like Skytrax about such stori
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ryanair Complains To U.K. Regulator About EasyJet posted Thu May 22 2003 15:01:28 by Rotate
EC Takes Greek Govt. To Court Over State Aid posted Thu Apr 27 2006 17:58:13 by BuyantUkhaa
Opinions About AF Service To LAX. posted Sat Feb 9 2002 19:18:08 by CV990
To Anybody With Info About AF posted Wed Jan 9 2002 18:39:32 by Captain.MD-11
Air Canada Ordered To Cancel Layoffs By Fed Gov't. posted Thu Oct 11 2001 16:05:19 by Player4keeps
What To Expect From AF Longhaul Service? posted Mon Apr 10 2006 22:31:58 by LH492
Question About EZE Services By American Carriers posted Thu Apr 6 2006 21:37:54 by ThaiboynMexico
JL Aims To Retire All 747 Classics By 2010 posted Thu Mar 2 2006 12:24:35 by Carpethead
Everything To Know About RDU.. posted Wed Mar 1 2006 21:27:43 by ERJ170
WSJ: ATR To More Than Double Output By 2007 posted Mon Jan 23 2006 21:44:50 by N328KF