Zbrox From Sweden, joined Jan 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12552 times:
Well, it's definitely not a photoshop job. With all those angles and shadows of people e t c, it would simply be too much unless you have unlimited time and know-how.
And anyone spending that much time on such a project (in order to possibly show what they can do) would likely chose something that would get a slightly larger audience than a few aviation geeks....
KhenleyDIA From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 397 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 12369 times:
Quoting Zbrox (Reply 1): With all those angles and shadows of people e t c, it would simply be too much unless you have unlimited time and know-how.
I would completely agree with you on that. Very rarely do people spend THAT much time faking something that wouldn't get much... "fanfare". And most often, people only make 1, maybe 2 angles of a scene. Otherwise, that would be WAY to much work.
Only theory on a fake would be that it was a G-V that had a collapsed gear and someone wanted to make it more interesting. Even that would require a good bit of work.
KhenleyDIA
PS... I use photoshop all the time and have done a little photo editting, so I have at least an idea of how much time it would take with over the counter products like photoshop.
Why sit at home and do nothing when you can travel the world.
3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 193 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 12314 times:
If this is real, where's the actual photo of sunken wheel? All we have is from distance, but clearly without access restrictions. So why not make most interesting image of the very gear close-up?
What's more, I've seen a loooot of bad asphalt with deep wheel marks in it, but never anything like this - I doubt aircraft weight would produce enough pressure for such an effect. Whats even more more, The wheels sunken to half their height would have a number of times smaller pressure on ground - you don't press with only bottom tip of tyre, but with whole diameter. And this is still so big force that the tyre sinks even deeper? Doubt.
MaartenV From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 271 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 12267 times:
If you look really closely to the 6th and the last picture, you'll see some 'pixel distortion under the sunken wheel. I think it is just a collapsed gear in combination with someone who has way to much time on his hands...
ChrisNH From United States, joined Jun 1999, 3159 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 12173 times:
If you go to FlightAware.com and type in the tail number you'll see that this plane's last recorded flight was Brunswick, GA to Van Nuys, CA on May 1. So can anyone tell whether that's Van Nuys in those pictures? If it's not, I'm suspicious.
Type-rated From United States, joined Sep 1999, 2250 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 12145 times:
Back in the late 60's Texas International had a DC-9 on a RON in EL Dorado, Ark.(ELD) that sunk into the asphalt. It wasn't as severe as the Gulfstream shown in the photo, but the pilot could not drive the aircraft out, it had to be towed out of it's "hole".
So this can happen.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
L1329II From United States, joined Feb 2006, 298 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 12145 times:
Although this picture might be a fake the possibility of larger, heavier A/C sinking into the tarmac is real. Maybe not to this extreme but it happens. While working the ramp in MKC we had a time limit that the "heavies" could spend on the tarmac. If they were overnighters then they were moved to another part of the airport for fear of them sinking in.
If this picture is real its a sinkole or the gear could have fallen in a manhole. But sinking into the tarmac is only a few inches and it does more "damage" to the tarmac (and maybe the tires) but not the A/C itself.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
ChiGB1973 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 1543 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 12121 times:
I am reading Jimmy Buffett's book, "A Pirate Looks At Fifty" and he talks about not being able to land his Albatross at an airfield because it would sink into the pavement. I looked back through and cannot find that part of the book, but if I do find it, I will name the airport.
2H4 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 8099 posts, RR: 65 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 12099 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
The sunken wheel appears to be only about 20-30 feet from the edge of the pavement. That's certainly close enough for moles or groundhogs to be an issue, particularly if the soil underneath is dirt, rather than gravel. It wouldn't take much of an air pocket underneath the tarmac to severely weaken it's load-bearing capacity.
Paulinbna From United States, joined Feb 2003, 1082 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11949 times:
but the problem that I see is that the pictures indicate the asphalt "swallowed" the wheel instead of the wheel "sinking" into the asphalt.
The picture kind of reminds of the history channel show on "The Philadelphia experiment" where parts of people where inside the ship.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 40 Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11871 times:
Kuwait airport had to be closed several times in the past due to excessive high temperatures ,reaching over 50 ° celsius (in the shade ).
I recall one of these incidents in 2000.
Problem was the runway and tarmac would not withstand the temperatures and the risk of planes sinking into asphalt was considered too great.
Dogfighter2111 From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Nov 2004, 1952 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11798 times:
Heya,
EDITED:- Heya, just realised that they are definetly real. You ahve the 2 guys inspecting the wing and also the Wast Disposal or Water Pipe is attatched to the aircraft in the last picture which obviously shows that the pipe is touching the ground as you would expect.
Zbrox From Sweden, joined Jan 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11754 times:
That distortion is more likely just compression showing. JPG has it's limitations
If you're SOOO good at this work so that you can create a digital "trolley" to put under the stairs ( Not to mention the people crawling on the wingtip on the ground - and their shadows) then why would you miss out on a simple thing?
IMHO It would be easer just to dig the goddam hole and put the wheel in it.
BTW - this is my first ever posting from a plane in flight!
SK997 CPH -PVG. Just coming in over the coast of th baltic states.
Connexion by Boeing on an A340.
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2380 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11733 times:
The photos definitely do look genuine, including reflections on the fuselage....question is, if indeed the wheels were sinking into the asphalt, it would have been gradual....why wasn't the plane moved before it reached this pitiful condition?
UnattendedBag From United States, joined Oct 2003, 1584 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11733 times:
it was probably parked over a storm drain and for some reason the earth gave way and the aircraft sank with the drain.
In places where you may see 50°C temps, you probably won't see lush green grass surrounding the ramp area.
CitationJet From United States, joined Mar 2003, 1570 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11677 times:
Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 16): it was probably parked over a storm drain and for some reason the earth gave way and the aircraft sank with the drain.
This can happen. I have personally witnessed it.
I have personally seen this happen in Wichita, KS with a Citation aircraft a couple of years ago. The plane was parked near a storm drain. The plane was parked on concrete. The main gear broke through the concrete, due to the washed out earth and the void below the concrete. The wingtip rested on the surface, just like shown in the photos on the G-V.
777DadandJr From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 17 Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11666 times:
Did anyone happen to notice that the Flight Global article is dated 12/05/06?
I'm guessing a typo since that date has not occured yet.
Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
CMHSRQ From United States, joined Feb 2004, 855 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11522 times:
Anyone ever heard of PCN, it's an surface (concrete, ashpalt etc) strength measurment, if can be found on most Jepp plates. The photos are real, in fact this happened to a Netjets G many years ago, after that incident. The PCN is verified on all runways and parking area's.
PCN
The ICAO PCN pavement strength reporting system involves publishing a five (5) part strength code in the form of 51/F/D/W/T for flexible pavements or 62/R/B/W/T for rigid concrete pavements. Briefly, the first number is the reported PCN value on a scale of 1 to about 130, with 1 representing a weak pavement and 130 a very strong pavement. The second part of the code is either an "F" for flexible pavement systems or "R" for rigid pavement systems. The third part is a letter code A, B, C, or D indicating the subgrade/bearing strength, with A representing a high supporting strength and D a very low strength. The fourth part indicates the tire pressure limitation in MPa if applicable (0.5 MPa in the example above) - "W" indicates that no tire pressure restriction is in effect. The fifth and final part of the PCN code indicates the evaluation method used to determine the pavement strength - "T" if derived from an engineering study or "U" if based on satisfactory aircraft usage.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11396 times:
The pictures look real enough to me, and as someone else mentioned, water erosion or other undermining of the soil underneath the pavement can cause a sudden loss of weight-bearing carrying ability without it having to be really hot outside.
As far as trying to figure out what airport it occurred, I suppose somebody that's so inclined could take Flightaware's list of airports that N222LX has transited and crosscheck that against the locations of Exxon Aviat FBOs, since there's clearly a piece of Aviat ramp equipment in some of the photos. Of course, that's alot of airports to call.
I think I'll wait for their update issue next week....
Qantas744ER From United States, joined Jun 2005, 1173 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11284 times:
Hey, im pretty sure its fake, i mean if it would of been a crack etc. then you would see a cracked up surface or what ever. Because to me it looks like they put the plane in the hole and then put the tarmac. There is simply no indications of a crack or what so ever.
And yes with photoshop you can do anything, trust me
Cheers leo
If you want to be a Millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline.
AndrewUber From United States, joined Jul 2003, 2401 posts, RR: 53 Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11197 times:
Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 3): If this is real, where's the actual photo of sunken wheel? All we have is from distance, but clearly without access restrictions. So why not make most interesting image of the very gear close-up?
The person taking the photos may not have been allowed to get under the airplane and take a photo of the gear stuck in the asphalt. A GV can have a MTOW of 89,000 lbs, would YOU get under it if it was sinking into asphalt? I know I wouldn't...
Quoting MaartenV (Reply 5): If you look really closely to the 6th and the last picture, you'll see some 'pixel distortion under the sunken wheel. I think it is just a collapsed gear in combination with someone who has way to much time on his hands...
'Pixel distortion' is due the the images being in JPG format. The file sizes are 24k on that page. Go into the a.net photo database, copy a really large nice clear photo, and reduce it to 400 pixels wide, and tell PhotoShop to compress it to 24kb. There will be plenty of 'Pixel distortion' in that image as well. That doesn't make the image fake.
Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 13): Wast Disposal or Water Pipe is attatched to the aircraft in the last picture which obviously shows that the pipe is touching the ground as you would expect.
The hose you see is a fuel hose. They are defueling the airplane. It's the first logical step to keep the area safe and to get the aircraft out of the hole. Suck out all the fuel, and cut the weight of the aircraft almost in half. Then you can raise it using jacks, airbags or a crane, and either fill the hole or roll the aircraft forward a few feet and get it out of there.
This isn't that difficult to believe. In Anniston, AL I saw a DC9 nose gear begin to sink into asphalt on a VERY hot Alabama day. It was there on a charter, we had parked it on the GA ramp. After seeing it starting to go down - we quickly moved it onto the main ramp (made of concrete) in front of the FBO. My guess is there are still two small dents in the ramp on that spot.
Also note that the GV has a very small footprint for such a heavy weight.
Gary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 25, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10629 times:
i dont think its real.
it just looks too.... hmm
clean,
around where the wheel as sunk for lack of a better description. there would surely be some bending or bowing of the ground. just too straight edged for my liking.
and like someone else said, this guy obviously had unlimited access to the plane, why not take a closeup of the wheel.
26 CitationJet: I have personally seen a Citation main gear that broke thru the ramp. That is exactly how it looked, just like the Gulfstream photos. The Citation in
27 PhatAlbert: if it was a hot day enough to make that aircraft sink under its own weight wouldnt the camera catch some of the heat hays comming off of the asphalt o
28 OPNLguy: I think the problem is that everyone seems to be assuming that the pavement failure has to be related to high temperatures and thus has to sag/deform
29 DesertFlyer: Seeing that wing against the ground just... hurts...[Edited 2006-05-13 22:09:33]
31 Stirling: Those are long shadows...either morning or afternoon. I am going to guess morning. It isn't heat related, it hasn't been hot enough anywhere yet. I am
32 JBo: And how experienced are you in Photoshop? I've plenty of experience myself, and to do such an expert job to every single one of those photos would ta
33 Socalatc: This is defiantly a possibility, It could have been a hot day on the ramp, that aircraft could have been full with Fuel, If I remember correctly the G
34 Flyabunch: That definitely does not look like Van Nuys. It looks more like the So.Eastern US by the vegetation. Mike
35 EI321: Reminds me of a time when some Dermot Desmond's (well known Irish businessman) Falcon 900EX was up-ended by wind at DUB.
36 Lumberton: My thoughts exactly. I suspect someone played with the final photo. Somebody at FI has far too much time on their hands. I suspect they were grossly
37 AndrewUber: Heat *haze* occurs when shooting low on the horizon, regardless of temperature. Heat haze showing up in a photo is greatly affected by the distance b
38 Saturn5: Oh, I don't buy this argument at all. Clearly one could approach this wheel and make a very good close-up photo (and using the zoom to the full advan
39 MaartenV: So I guess its coincidence that the only places with pixel distortion I could easily spot were exactly under the wing...? I still think it is just a
40 Strudders: I have seen this, but not on a commercial aircraft. 10 years ago or so I remember 2 tornado F1's dropping through the tarmac whilst on static display
41 Silver1SWA: Call me weird, but in the second photo, doesn't it look like someone is laying under the wing as if they are inspecting it? Whatever. Seems real enou
42 AndrewUber: Yep. JPEG compression is always more visible in high-contrast and dark areas. A nosegear can collapse on the ground. It happens all the time. For a m
43 MaartenV: Its not like these are the only dark spots on the pictures.... Then I think it could be a pothole... Still don't understand why they didn't take more
44 Legacytravel: Looks more like a sink hole or soft pavement than anything else. Maybe a airpocket in the asphalt. Regards, Mark in MKE
45 2H4: Unbelievable. CitationJet confirms that he has actually seen this exact sort of incident take place, and others here have confirmed that similar inci
46 OPNLguy: I did a little internet research, and the operator appears to be Trans-Exec at SMO: http://www.rsvpair.com/viewOperator/487.html I called the number l
47 Saturn5: Maybe so. But then we can only blame the lazy (or incompetent) photographer who can't seem to know how to take a convincing picture. Or maybe we can
48 2H4: ...Ooooooor, we could simply accept the fact that incidents like this, while not an everyday occurance, are not nearly as outlandish as some are sugg
49 Silver1SWA: How the hell do you know he took these picture for the sole purpose of convincing us a.netters or the skeptics that this really happened?! Typically
50 MaartenV: Then why take more then half a dozen of pictures from different angles? If the photographer would have thought that this incident wouldn't be any thi
51 2H4: Maarten, what exactly are you arguing? My point was...and I suppose I should have added this ...that in terms of basic physics, the incident is not n
52 MaartenV: I haven't said that that in terms of basic physics, the incident is outlandish. I'm just saying that there are a couple of reasons that make me suspi
53 Jetfixr757: Folks, that is something that happens to airplanes and asphalt, the asphalt heats up and the ground underneath may not have been prepared to take the
54 OPNLguy: Assumptions. There are plenty of reasons he could have taken "so many" pictures; documenting for insurance claim purposes, for possible use in litiga
55 SATX: Something just doesn't look quite right. It's not that I doubt this could happen, it's just that I wouldn't expect it to look quite like this. It does
56 Corey07850: On the first crop you posted, zoom in on the stairs as well and you'll notice some strange irregularities there, almost like a ghost image of where t
57 QuasarZ: I belived it until I saw that last blown-up picture. The distortion some are saying casued by dark spots or what not... is shaped in a perfect square
58 Ikramerica: Has nobody ever seen a pothole in the road? Complete collapse of the road surface with surrounded surface perfectly undisturbed. It happens all over
59 Mikester540: I thought it was real... Well, the leaning part is real and it seems that the gear was fine, but it is completely pressed down. The image where the wh
60 Saturn5: Michael, I fail to see your point. I see no reason why the gear would not be leaning if it ended up in this position - the forces could have moved the
61 Stirling: Lets just assume this was photoshopped. Why would the guy be lying on the ground checking under the wing. And what purpose does having all the people
62 Saturn5: You must be aware of this hoax-video showing Air Force One being spray-painted by bunch of fellows who allegedly broke into the Andrews AFB. This was
63 2H4: I don't suppose it would make any difference if I presented data that illustrates how the Gulfstream V exerts a higher load per square inch on the gr
64 OPNLguy: Maybe they don't... I reckon not... Somebody out in CA call them and put this thread to rest...
65 SATX: What is the point of trying to prove they are real when all you have to go on are the photos themselves? In this day-and-age it's almost impossible t
66 AndrewUber: Imagine if there had only been one photo of the incident. Everyone would be screaming "Why didn't he take more photos?!?" Amazing - you have a great
67 SATX: Oh brother. And your own post helped the thread become more productive in what way? Oh, so that's how you decided to contribute something that wasn't
68 Visakow: Looks too smoooth and there is a lack of cracks around hole, I would say fake but who knows other than those involved.
69 Rampart: Anywhere in the Southeast or Midwest US, or in the Tropics, can see 50°C temps, at least surface temps, and have plenty of green vegetation. I heard
70 ComairGuyCVG: I was looking at other GV pics sitting on the ground....and it just seems that the wing is too high for the tip to be touching the ground for as much
71 We're Nuts: Clearly a hole in the space-time continuum. We're lucky that plane was there to plug it.
72 Gary2880: we are not in a age anymore where ''the camera doesn't lie'' after reply 55 clearly showing a highly solid (man made) pixelated box around the area.
73 Gary2880: few more things maybe worth a mention. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/Gary2880/shado.jpg not only is this photographer special in that he can
74 MaartenV: I think its clear that, although an incident like this is not impossible, the pictures we are discussing here are probably fake. I agree
75 707guy: For the sake of being technically correct - the "waste diposal" hose in the last picture is a fuel hose. That is where all Gulfstreams have their sin
76 Ilikeyyc: That appears to be the rear end of a person crawling around under the wing. You can see the legs sticking out behind him just above the tug. You don'
77 Gary2880: couldn't agree more. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...08/0815_020815_photooftheyear.html
78 Ilikeyyc: Great inductive logic! One or more photos on the internet are fake, therefore these photos must be fake too.
79 Gary2880: yeah it was almost as dumb as yours wasn't it? i am pointing out that it is possible for people to fake photographs. and its ignorant for people to j
80 CMHSRQ: I know this is hard to believe but the photos are real. I will say it again, the same thing happened to a Netjets G-IVSP about 6 years ago, it was fue
81 2H4: ...Almost as ignorant as when people just presume these days that "Oh, it's a photo of abnormal situation. I've never seen it happen, and there are s
82 SATX: Some of us are merely questioning the photos; not everyone is saying they know if the photos are real or fake. Questioning what you see and hear is a
83 MaartenV: Yes, we know it can happen, but we are not talking about whether this is or isn't possible. We are talking about the pictures being real or fake, sin
84 2H4: I'm with you, SATX. The frustrating ones are the other individuals...the ones who are professing how impossible it is for this kind of incident to ta
85 2H4: I've mainly been addressing those who seem to be convinced it can't happen, though. 2H4
86 Gary2880: yes sorry about that, didn't mean to give you more credit than was due. im only convinced until i see proof. as you said earlier people have experien
87 CMHSRQ: Its to bad we now live in a world were seeing is no longer believing.
88 MaartenV: One could also argue that its great that we have been able to develop devices which enable us to create images which are fake and resulting in a worl
89 2H4: Yes, his summary was a good one. I should probably have made myself more clear from the beginning that I've been arguing that the incident is perfect
90 PhatAlbert: alright i was just wondering plus there are no longish type shots to even see the heat haze i understand.... i also agree that a guy would not be und
91 Electech6299: Yup, that's the most pressing thing I see in this photo, and I believe it. I wonder why the rest of the "aviation enthusiasts" are more interested in
92 Airwebster: regarding the sinking G-V LX.. http://www.rsvpair.com/planeguide is our site and we have an NTSB friend that can pull data on "incidents" that cause m
93 AA717driver: Since you all have so much time on your hands, go to the photo archives and look for a GV that is parked and find one that has the nosewheel off cente
94 OPNLguy: From pprune... It's real and it happened in SSI about 3 weeks ago. The GAC folks called the recovery folks out of KC. Then the folks from BQK came ove
95 WMUPilot: I happen to have several pictures of the incident. I only uploaded a couple of the pictures but if you want the full set just send me a message
96 MaartenV: Well the 3rd picture convinced me. I was wrong in thinking the pictures were fake:D
97 Stirling: But..but....but, what about the pixelation...and the shadows....and the AF1 grafitti job, and....well, you mean it's been real all along?! Wow. Who wo
98 AA717driver: A friend taxiied in right after it happened. Apparently, this aircraft had been towed over to this area to be fueled. When they put the gas on, it sun
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