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747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?  
User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 810 posts, RR: 22
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13410 times:

Hey everyone, Im in KWI here typing on a arabic keyboard so forgive me for the grammar.
I ve just been chatting with our captain and he told me that pretty soon the
KLM 74M aircraft wont be allowed over US airspace anymore. He was not sure
when this would be but he thought before 2010.
Does anyone know more about this development?
Currently KLM still serves JFK,ORD,IAH and LAX(with very lucrative horse transport) with the 74M. How will they adapt to that situation?
Is the more and more credible 773 order part of the solution?
They sure will need more freighters, maybe convert some of their full pax 744 and put new 773 to replace them for passenger traffic???

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSangas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13383 times:

The capabilities of the 744M has worked well for KLM, it will be difficult to replace since no other aircraft currently available will be able to fulfill the same missions in the same way.

User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13330 times:

Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
2010.
Does anyone know more about this development?

It is an insane idea to ban combi, it would seem more of protectionism for the likes of FEDEX and UPS. However, KLM is going to get around this.

LAX/IAH - If all goes through will become full pax 747-400 stations

LAX/IAH - To gain a 4 x weekly 747-400 KLM Cargo Flight

JFK/ORD - Both stations will be 777 for pax flights


User currently offlineJoseMEX From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 1539 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13174 times:

If this happens, I guess KL's MEX service will be affected too, as it enters US airspace.

User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2087 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13142 times:

Is this for real! Makes no sense whatsoever. Why refuse a combi, when you allow full FR. From my memory there was one accident with a combi, SAA. More 747 Pax have gone down, but they are still flying in the USA.

Am I missing something?

Col


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5064 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13125 times:

What is the reason for this? Safety concerns--how so?


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13046 times:

I think there were some topics on the decline of combi aircraft in the USA and elsewhere in the recent past. IIRC, there are issues of fire safety when pax and considerable cargo are on an aircraft. In the USA, laws and rules as to requied fire safety standards changed due to the Valujet crash of 10 years ago, as well as other in-flight freight involved accidents. The fire safety requirements included special bulkheads between the pax and freight sections, fire supression equipment, and other related requirements. You also have long range mid-sized aircraft (767, A-310/330, 757) that cover the mid level pax demands, so you don't need to buy a 747 to cover your mid-sized pax needs and balance the rest of the flight costs with freight.

User currently offlineLear777 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12763 times:

This will pose problems for the PIA 747 Combi flights into Houston as well...

Brian



Go Astros!
User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 810 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12616 times:

How about EVA, dont they use their combis to the US also?

User currently offlineHentzz From Estonia, joined Mar 2006, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12598 times:

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 7):
This will pose problems for the PIA 747 Combi flights into Houston as well...
I thought that PIA flies B772ER/LR to Houston

[Edited 2006-05-16 18:29:33]

[Edited 2006-05-16 18:29:59]

User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5064 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12558 times:

Quoting Hentzz (Reply 9):
Quoting Lear777 (Reply 7):
This will pose problems for the PIA 747 Combi flights into Houston as well...
I thought that PIA flies B772ER/LR to Houston

Nope its been changed to a combi--its been one for about a month or so now.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineDreamflight767 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12558 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 8):
USER PROFILESEND INSTANT MSGADD TO RESP USERSSUGGEST DELETIONQUOTE SELECTED TEXT

KLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 477 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted Tue May 16 2006 18:25:17 UTC+2 and read 58 times:


How about EVA, dont they use their combis to the US also?

Yep, we get them into SFO often.


User currently offlineHentzz From Estonia, joined Mar 2006, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12500 times:

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 10):
Nope its been changed to a combi--its been one for about a month or so now.

Thanks for correction, but why did this happen?
I understand the need for cargo capacity, but it needs to make a stop-over.
The B772LR would be able to make this without a stop. Wouldn't it be more reosanable to simply put an extra cargo airplane on the route?


User currently offlinePIA747 From Pakistan, joined Apr 2003, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12423 times:

I guess i am going to veer slightly off topic here. PIA flight to IAH is now once a week by a 74M. This is expected to go up to twice a week next month. The loads to IAH have not been good from the start, and i thought PIA decided to compliment it with some cargo. However, on talking to the captain who operated the May 5th flight to IAH, i have learnt that PIA is infact not carrying any cargo to/from IAH. Their route economics just keeps on amazing me.

User currently offlineCheco77 From Peru, joined Oct 2004, 1345 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12374 times:

KLM Cedric, welcome to my RU list!!! Briliant posts regarding KLM must be rewarded!!!

It looks weird that the US will not let the 744M fly. If this happens, it will affect KLM so much that they need to think as of NOW of a replacement. I think we will see a massive (propably 20 pieces) for B773.
Adam



Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5064 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12171 times:

Quoting PIA747 (Reply 13):
I guess i am going to veer slightly off topic here. PIA flight to IAH is now once a week by a 74M. This is expected to go up to twice a week next month. The loads to IAH have not been good from the start, and i thought PIA decided to compliment it with some cargo. However, on talking to the captain who operated the May 5th flight to IAH, i have learnt that PIA is infact not carrying any cargo to/from IAH. Their route economics just keeps on amazing me.

Wow--why fly the route then...I mean I like spotting a classic 747 here at IAH, but c'mon are they in it to win it or just exist?



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12122 times:

Has anyone actually confirmed that combis will be banned?

The OP cites a rumor (heard from a pilot of all places)... any FAR the forbids them? Noise requirements?

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12054 times:

Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
They sure will need more freighters, maybe convert some of their full pax 744

Combis are a lot easier to convert to freighters as the already have the SCD (side cargo door). If KL doesn't find other markets on which they could put the combis, it's the combis that they'll convert to freighters first.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12033 times:

Combis are still allowed to the US and will be for the forseeable future. The rules change relates to new build combis only, any combi built prior to the rules change preventing certification of new build combis is grandfathered in and can fly to and from the US.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11965 times:

What about double-decker Combis? You'd use one deck for cargo and the other for passengers. I think this would be a great use for the A380.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4494 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10770 times:
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Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):
What about double-decker Combis? You'd use one deck for cargo and the other for passengers. I think this would be a great use for the A380.

I've pointed this out in previous threads, the fire safety problems which concern the FAA should be easily dealt with with 2 decks and you get if you put humans up top and cargo on the main and lower deck essentially A332 if not A343 passenger capacity and almost 744F cargo capacity for almost the same fuel use and half the flight crew. It would be good for many east asian carriers going to US or Europe


User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2087 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9606 times:

OK, let me get this right. A pax Airbus or Boeing can be purchased new and fly into USA with PAX. But a new build Combi cannot. An even bigger But, is that these new build Airbus/Boeing pax widebodies carry quite a large amount of cargo in their belly's. Pax+Cargo = Combi!.

The 380 would probably sell more if it were available as a combi, more efficient for everyone.

Is it me, or does this seem a little stupid! If Combi's are that dangerous to stop producing them, why aren't they grounded now?


User currently offlineAlexchao From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 688 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9222 times:

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 8):
How about EVA, dont they use their combis to the US also?

Yes, EVA uses their 747-400 Combi aircraft to SEA, EWR, SFO, and LAX. They have been pondering converting those aircraft to freighters with the ongoing delivery of their 777s. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the OP's rumored policy change in the U.S.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9083 times:

Quoting Col (Reply 22):
OK, let me get this right. A pax Airbus or Boeing can be purchased new and fly into USA with PAX. But a new build Combi cannot. An even bigger But, is that these new build Airbus/Boeing pax widebodies carry quite a large amount of cargo in their belly's. Pax+Cargo = Combi!.

Pax aircraft can carry cargo. The rule is that you now have to have a fixed bulkhead to separate the cargo section from the passenger section. A floor separating cargo from passengers would count as a fixed barrier. A combi with cargo and pax on the same floor would have to be specifically designed with a fixed bulkhead, and there probably isn't a large enough market for it in any one particular configuration in terms of passenger and cargo compartment size.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offline9V-SPJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 748 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8156 times:

I don't want to be picky, but isn't the B74M = B747-200 combi and the B74E = B747-400 combi? Could he have meant B747-200 combi?

9V-SPJ


25 Carpethead : Asiana would also be affected as they fly the 74Es to destinations in the US including LAX & ORD for sure. While EVA has 773ER/772LRs on order which c
26 Post contains images SparkingWave : I'm just speculating here, but I'll go along with the fixed bulkhead idea suggested by Atmx 2000. In a 747 combi, cargo is stored in half of the plane
27 Kaitak744 : Well, there are more combis which come to the USA. Air China, KLM, EVA, Asiana, Air France, Lufthansa (on occasion), Air India, and PIA. Looks like th
28 Post contains images Jacobin777 : supposedly that is wrong...I've read that they do indeed filled with a lot of cargo... KL's 747M will be missed... at least I was fortunate to fly on
29 PIA747 : Read on HOP. Believeing F.K, I admire your guts.
30 ZK-NBT : Air France and Lufthansa no longer operate Combi's, they converted them to full pax several years ago!
31 SFO2SVO : Alaska also operates some 737-200 combis. Would those be banned too?
32 Post contains images Jacobin777 : true..maybe i should take those comments with a grain of salt...
33 PhilSquares : There is no ban, or proposed ban on combis operating into/out of the US. The issue is the ability to fight any fire on the same deck as you have pax s
34 Trex8 : sorry but I'm lost on why the Combi can't descend wouldn't having a dedicated fire detection/protection system be much easier with seperate decks? al
35 Post contains links Tod : Strong enough to comply with 14CFR25 requirements. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...browse/Title14/14cfr25_main_02.tpl Tod
36 PhilSquares : How would you keep the passenger are pressurized while getting the main deck area to FL250? In essence, what you're doing is depressurizing the entir
37 KL662 : Saw an Asiana combi getting loaded at LAX on Monday. They had quite an operation going, complete with the support pole at the rear of the plane to kee
38 TinkerBelle : This sure doesnn't make sense and the fact that it came from a pilot even makes it lose more credibility. I think it's bologni coz there's no fesible
39 Trex8 : ah now I understand, I thought you meant the plane itself was going down to FL250
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