no. it had 114 orders through april 1995, which was later into the program than the 787 is now. it also cost a lot more, had two competitors already flying in the 340 and MD11, and was more of a gamble as it was a "big twin" that was going to fly on tri and quad routes, so the 744 was also still earning orders. the long range 777s weren't even available until 1997, as it started out with similar ranges to the 767 family.
the 787 doesn't have to prove the effectiveness of the long range twin concept from the start and it costs a lot less.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Not even close. 15 months before first flight, the B777 had 82 orders. 12 months before first flight, the B777 had 112 orders. The B787 is 12-15 months before first flight, but with 350 firm orders. No other widebody has ever come close to the early sales success of the B787.
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 39 Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4565 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 14): I don't really see that happening for all 3 airlines but I have a feeling in my water that at least 1 if not 2 of those 3 will announce a big 'bus order at Farnborough
QR might, but I am not sure their fleet procurement people are up to snuff. They bit on the A350 as defined last year after all. Neither SQ or EK are suddenly going to jump on the A350 without carefully evaluating the aircraft. And if EIS is in 2012, there is no rush.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1646 posts, RR: 11 Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4153 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 7): Or if they launch A350 v5 at Farborough with 60 for QR, 100 for EK and 40 for SQ that would turn everything on its head...........
That's a completely unrealistic expectation to put it politely.
I get the feeling here that lots of people on this forum just don't understand the consequences and scope of this latest development in the A350 program.
Airbus is cancelling the A350 program and starting over.
This is not a minor modification that they can get sorted out in a month or two, it's a major redesign of the aircraft: new fuselage, new engines, new production and supplier infrastructure. It's going to be at least six months, and more probably a year or so, before they're in a position to provide customers with a refined, detailed, performance and engineering proposal.
Some of these airlines may well be willing to wait and see exactly what Airbus brings to the table, but if you think airlines like EK and SQ are going to place huge orders worth billions of dollars based on some preliminary engineering assessment, you're going to be very disappointed. That is doubly so considering the troubled history of this program to date. These airlines are going to insist that all the i's are dotted and t's crossed before they even take a serious look let alone place an order.
If you're looking for large A350 orders, you better start thinking about Paris in 2007, not this year at Farnborough. It ain't gonna happen.
I think this is a good move by Airbus in the long-run, but lets not kid ourselves about the short-term consequences.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4052 times:
One can ask the question:
Are there any firm orders for the A350 at this point in time?
With Airbus doing a major re-think and revision of the A350 program, its likely that all of the sales agreements for the prior version of the A350 are void as Airbus will be building a different aircraft with different capabilities......existing A350 customers will probably have the choice of cancelling their order altogether, re-affirming their order for the new and improved A350/370 under modified conditions (ie, delivery dates are going to slide), or applying deposits (if Airbus collected deposits, it was never clear as to how firm the A350 orders were) to other products in the Airbus family.
Airbus is starting over with a clean slate - and, as mentioned, Airbus is probably not yet in the position to offer the A350/370 for sale to the airlines - its far too early in the revamped program. It will be interesting to see which airlines wait for the new A350/370 (SQ and EK, the two big players, may just wait it out as those airlines are probably most interested in the 787-10 anyway....if they were to go 787) and it will be even more interesting to see if any current A350 customer places an order for 787 family.
MasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 4725 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3889 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
Are there any firm orders for the A350 at this point in time?
US Airways has a firm order for 20; but their chairman was carefully deliberate in his remarks during a recent conference call. In response to a question about A350 design perturbations and delays, he replied that Airbus had made promises regarding performance and deliveries; and, if those promises weren't kept, the order could be cancelled.
How rock solid is that? As the A350 evolves it seems to be growing into a larger plane than US Airways needs.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26720 posts, RR: 83 Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3797 times:
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 17): Some of these airlines may well be willing to wait and see exactly what Airbus brings to the table, but if you think airlines like EK and SQ are going to place huge orders worth billions of dollars based on some preliminary engineering assessment, you're going to be very disappointed.
EK should be able to afford 50 787s now (for delivery through 2015) and 50 A350MkV's later (for delivery starting in 2015) to continue expansion and replacement of their earliest 772ERs.
SQ, seeming to hate to own a plane more then a decade, could also order 787's now for both expansion and replacement of their oldest 772ERs for lower-traffic rules and then take A350MkV's in the latter half of the 2010's to replace their formerly newest (and now oldest) 772ERs on higher-traffic routes.
So honestly, I could see EK and SQ order the 787 this year, but also make strong and valid statements of support for the A350MkV if it does indeed launch and in the specification being rumored.
Not very I suspect. Apparently US Airways had performance guarantees in that contract that had already made cancellation a real possibility even before the redesign. They were also looking at a 2011 EIS which seems to be out of the question for the new A350. As you point out it's also questionable if US want an aircraft this large.
I think the same is true of the 10 firm orders from Air Europa. The new A350 is too large for their needs plus they were looking at an even earlier EIS of 2010.
I suspect both these orders are toast. We'll just have to wait and see.
11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1646 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 22): I read on here that Finnair had stated that they didn't mind the redesign and the orders were to stand as they were looking at a 2012 EIS anyway.
That may well be true, but they will still need to redo the contract for that order.
The existing performance and production slot stipulations in A350 contracts are meaningless assuming Airbus goes ahead with the redesign. That's not something Airbus can just write up on the back of a napkin. It's going to take them 6-12 months to figure that out.
Any new orders, of course, will depend on the disposition of the old orders because Airbus will need to recalculate all the delivery slots and supplier contracts. All that requires a fairly refined set of engineering and production details, and that takes time.
[Edited 2006-05-18 19:12:37]
25 Ikramerica: any chance that the 330 will get GEnx engines like originally planned, with EIS of 2009, and the new 350/370 will be redesigned as well to be truly al
26 Pavlin: 200 orders for A350 in one show? hahahahahahahahhahahahaha the biggest single ever order in the history was for 42 777's for Emirates. Valued 9 billi
27 Trex8: aren't the newer engines larger in diameter? they are certainly supposed to be heavier. seems if they ever launch a A332F the newer engines make sens
28 Ikramerica: but they are already making smaller fanned bleed air GEnx engines for the 748. These would also fit under the 330, and thrust should be the right amo