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Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!  
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8033 times:

NAV20 saw this coming some time ago !

Gustav Humbert & Noel Forgeard at odds over A350 !


  


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...060518.IBAIRBUS18/TPStory/Business

AEROSPACE

'Crisis' talk spurs war of words at Airbus
German CEO blasts French predecessor
TIM HEPHER

Reuters News Agency

BERLIN -- Friction at the helm of Airbus SAS took a new twist yesterday as its first German boss implicitly rebuked the Frenchman who now runs parent EADS NV for saying the plane maker was in a "growth crisis."

The unusually outspoken response by Airbus chief executive officer Gustav Humbert reflected embarrassment inside the Boeing rival over comments by EADS co-CEO Noël Forgeard, who held Mr. Humbert's job until he was promoted last year.

Airbus has been trying in vain to keep a lid on proposed changes to its newest design, the twin-jet A350, until it is ready to go public with a blueprint designed to halt the runaway success of a rival Boeing Co. model, the 787 Dreamliner.



Halibut

[Edited 2006-05-18 21:15:23]

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7947 times:

Sounds like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. This is getting rediculous, when asked last year about the break-even point for the A380, four different Airbus executives gave four different answers. There is obvious inconsistancy and indecision going on.

Someone needs to dicate who will speak for the company and who will keep a lid on it, someone needs to draw a clear product strategy to avoid drifting with the A350, and someone needs to do this all while keeping the company ticker healthy.

Leahy and maybe Humbert to a lesser degree seem to have their heades on the most. I personally credit Leahy for making Airbus what it is. Leahy is also credited with seeing A350 V1 and V2 were not what customers wanted, well in advance of this month's revision announcement.

Why then can't he be granted more discretion in product strategy? Is the American sales boy not good enough to lead the helm?


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7947 times:

So now it is in the press. About time. However, I have been saying this for a couple weeks now. The big question is who wins. Noel is the problem, and if he wins, which is likely, then that is very bad for Airbus.

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Airbus has been trying in vain to keep a lid on proposed changes to its newest design, the twin-jet A350, until it is ready to go public with a blueprint designed to halt the runaway success of a rival Boeing Co. model, the 787 Dreamliner.

This is going to be hard to do being that the airline execs have to see it. But it WILL be at Farnborough even if one of the top execs at Airbus is not. The Real 350 has to be unveiled before then or you will see large number of 787 orders.

I'm cheering for Gustav, because he is Airbus's best hope.


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7898 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Is the American sales boy not good enough to lead the helm?

Yeap. He is an American.


    Yesterday's exchanges marked the first public tiff between Mr. Forgeard, an extrovert former adviser to French President Jacques Chirac, and the down-to-earth engineer who replaced him.


This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7831 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
Noel is the problem, and if he wins, which is likely, then that is very bad for Airbus.



Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
I'm cheering for Gustav, because he is Airbus's best hope.



Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):
This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?

You've hit the nail on the head, Poitin. Humbert needs to be given greater sway at Airbus. As an engineer, his approach to any decision -- or public comments -- is going to be more level-headed.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Leahy and maybe Humbert to a lesser degree seem to have their heades on the most.

Humbert and Leahy..."The Intellect and the Mouth". What a winning combination! (I'm being serious).



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7730 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
You've hit the nail on the head, Poitin. Humbert needs to be given greater sway at Airbus. As an engineer, his approach to any decision -- or public comments -- is going to be more level-headed.

I agree, let the Germans do what they have been doing as good or better than anyone else for almost 100 years, build excellent airplanes that meet the needs of the people who fly them.

They simply must find their way out of this analysis paralysis with the 350 and build the damn thing.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7697 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):
This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?

You've hit the nail on the head, Poitin. Humbert needs to be given greater sway at Airbus. As an engineer, his approach to any decision -- or public comments -- is going to be more level-headed.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Leahy and maybe Humbert to a lesser degree seem to have their heades on the most.

Humbert and Leahy..."The Intellect and the Mouth". What a winning combination! (I'm being serious).

I like Humbert a lot. I really want him to have real control of Airbus. As for Leahy, he does his job well and although it is fun to make fun of him, he is a excellent sales man.

The A380 and at least the first couple versions of the A380 is an example of Noel's lack of understanding of the business. He should go back to baiting George Bush. Politicians do not make engineers.

Someone noted on another thread the the Fat A350, this week's Airbus A350 du jour, was what the A380 should have been. That is very close to being 100% on the mark. The Fat A350, without the A380 to muddy its waters, would have been an excellent airplane a year ago. Had that happened we would all be worrying or rejoicing at the way Boeing lost its lead for good.


User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7642 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Politicians do not make engineers.

And vice versa, re: Jimmy Carter....



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7628 times:

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 7):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Politicians do not make engineers.

And vice versa, re: Jimmy Carter....

Yeap. However, he was are nicest ex-President.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
The A380 and at least the first couple versions of the A380 is an example of Noel's lack of understanding of the business. He should go back to baiting George Bush. Politicians do not make engineers.

Condit was an engineer, and he caused problems for Boeing.

You need knowledge of engineering, business, sales and customer relations to be successful in running an aircraft manufacturer.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 7):
And vice versa, re: Jimmy Carter

I wouldn't make that claim if Carter is the only data point.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Yeap. However, he was are nicest ex-President.

He would be if he just stuck to Habitat.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7529 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
I wouldn't make that claim if Carter is the only data point.

Only, no, best example, yes

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
He would be if he just stuck to Habitat.

I agree, actually Nixon did great things after leaving office too, just not as publicly, and he never criticised any administration that followed. In this respect, Nixon had more class than Carter. Ironic and bizarre to say the least.

I think Airbuses high level squabbles will be just as ugly and inappropriate as Carter/Bush Jr..



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2344 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7502 times:

This internal battle is interesting indeed. I still cannot fathom how Airbus is going to tackle the 350 decision. Some people have said they'd keep the 358 but then have an alternative design for the higher capacity "versions". This plainly does not make any sense because it would be $4B to bring the current 358 design to market (the one with the 100 commitments) + an additional $8-10B to bring the "other wider all newer new" versions out. Any way you cut it you are either sticking to what you have fuselage width-wise or bringing out a whole new line, to do both is simply impossible IMO.

I think one thing is clear, the management structure at EADS/Airbus leaves much to be desired but I'm glad to see Mr. Humbert at Airbus. He seems to have a degree of humility and sophistication about him which has always eluded Foregard and Leahy.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7432 times:

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

No.

Pls read the article. Halibut left out the content & thought just saying they are fighting would be better. It looks like it has nothing to do with the A350. The A350 is dragged in as an introduction by the journalist.

From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

A "Tongue-In-Cheek" so to say

Seems Halibut needs only half a word, selects & leaves out the others..


User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7312 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

Noooooo,
It was Humbert saying in a very diplomantic way that he was " Finally " able to penetrate Forgeard's thick scull with some logic for once !!!  idea 

Humbert is a class act & would not say anything directly derogatory toward anyone related to Airbus or for that matter , anyone in general !

If any kind of information regarding an internal conflict made it to the press . Then it is obvious that there are serious & intense battles taking place behind closed doors !

I see this as a plus for Humbert & Airbus as well . Humbert is standing up to Forgeard & it looks as though he won this one !

Way to go Gustav Humbert .

 bigthumbsup 

Halibut


User currently offlineAApilot2b From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 574 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7264 times:

Ok... in all fairness to Forgeard (even though I can't stand him), the rest of the article (which was not added in) seems to point out that the Frenchmen finally recognises the crisis Airbus is in. I don't know too much about Humbert yet, but I like the guy already. He seems like the right man for the job.

User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7217 times:

Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 14):
He seems like the right man for the job.

Facinating guy actually, read up on him, it is worth the time.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7152 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

A "Tongue-In-Cheek" so to say

I think Keesje doesn't understand the gravamen of the article. The lead sentence of the article indicates Humbert is upset that Forgeard has publicly acknowledged/characterized Airbus as being in a "growth crisis." Humbert's "tongue-in-cheek" remark wasn't meant to express happiness and surprise that they're now in agreement, but rather contempt and digust that Forgeard should say anything at all when he was the primary cause of the problem.

[Edited 2006-05-18 23:54:46]

[Edited 2006-05-19 00:11:10]

[Edited 2006-05-19 00:15:38]

User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7152 times:

Humbert is at odds with Forgeard because Noel's been constantly flapping his gums over the A350 for the passed 2 years . During that time the A350 has been changed or tweaked or what ever they did a number of time . Making Airbus look bad !!!

Gustav wants Forgeard to zip it up  ziplip  so Airbus will look more professional !

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Reuters News Agency

BERLIN -- Friction at the helm of Airbus SAS took a new twist yesterday as its first German boss implicitly rebuked the Frenchman who now runs parent EADS NV for saying the plane maker was in a "growth crisis."

The unusually outspoken response by Airbus chief executive officer Gustav Humbert reflected embarrassment inside the Boeing rival over comments by EADS co-CEO Noël Forgeard, who held Mr. Humbert's job until he was promoted last year.

Airbus has been trying in vain to keep a lid on proposed changes to its newest design, the twin-jet A350, until it is ready to go public with a blueprint designed to halt the runaway success of a rival Boeing Co. model, the 787 Dreamliner.



Remember this one ?

Forgeard : A350 totally new aircraft back in late 2005 !

Don't you think Airbus looks rather foolish after Noel 's " Most Advanced Aircraft of this Century " is DOA . Humbert wants Airbus to have a better image . The sooner Forgeard shuts his trap the better Airbus will look !

http://www.itp.net/business/features/details.php?id=3463&category=

揑f you look at two recent initiatives within the industry; the A350 and the 747-8 they are quite different. The A350 is a totally new aircraft ?totally new ?the wings are new, the fuselage is new and even the engines are new,?he claims resolutely. 揑t is the most modern aircraft of this century and we spent US$5.1 billion on its development. The 747-8 is not much different from the 747 ?it is just a little stretched ?that抯 it,?he adds.

Halibut


User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 975 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7022 times:

How many of you personally know Mr. Forgeard or Mr. Humbert? And reading about them in the press does not count...

Keep in mind that Airbus made great strides under Forgeard. Did he make mistakes? What human doesn't? Are there disagreements at the top levels of Airbus? When more than one human is involved, what society doesn't have its share of disagreement?

The article appears to say that Forgeard is (maybe reluctantly) coming around to the fact that Airbus does need to advance the design of their aircraft, and especially the A350, to stay competitive. That can only be positive. If Humbert's response sounds like he's saying FINALLY!!!, he probably is.


User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6971 times:

Leave it to Halibut to start an Airbus bashing thread. It's getting old and it loses all credibility, even though the issue might have merit, if every day there is a new anti-Airbus thread by the same member.

User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6862 times:

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 18):
How many of you personally know Mr. Forgeard or Mr. Humbert? And reading about them in the press does not count...

How Mr Forgeard carries himself while off the clock is irrelevant . It's what he says on the record that's doing great harm to Airbus's reputation .

Quoting TIA (Reply 19):
Leave it to Halibut to start an Airbus bashing thread. It's getting old and it loses all credibility, even though the issue might have merit, if every day there is a new anti-Airbus thread by the same member.

I'll admit , I lean slightly towards Boeing .  blush 

I am simply pointing out Airbus's PR problem . Did you not see my many positive comments of Mr Gustav Humbert ?

Halibut


User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2478 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6794 times:

Many of you have likely seen the editorial in the current AW&ST, page 86, "Airbus and the A350:If At First You Don't Succeed", which basically blames Forgeard for much of Airbus's current woes. It's good to hear that Noel seems to realize his decisions were a big part of the problem. The company's apparent indecision on strategy of late seems to roughly parallel some of the problems Boeing had a few years ago under Phil Condit. The editorial criticizes too much focus on the A380 at the expense of other priorities and suggests that Airbus had better get the NEXT A350 redesign right or face grave consequences. It said Boeing's timing of the 787 was near spot-on with Airbus so far stymied about coming up with a viable competitor. Moreover, the A340 sales draught has left Airbus vulnerable across its mid-market range. And if that wasn't enough, the likely sooner than later replacement of the Boeing 737 will catch Airbus in the critical single-aisle market before they've enough resources freed from other programs like the new A350. This crisis is a stunning reversal of fortune from just 3 years ago when they seemed unbeatable. No doubt the new A350 family will eventually help turn this around at least somewhat but for now, Airbus's strategy is in a bit of disarray. They're hardly on the ropes but it does seem a number of worrisome missteps were made with Forgeard at the helm. As the editorial suggests, Humbert may indeed want to say to him:"You blew it, boss!"

User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1725 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6778 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 20):
I am simply pointing out Airbus's PR problem .

It seems to me that's the real problem here. It's not so much Forgeard and Humbert as it is their failure to make their comments within the boundaries of a well managed, professional, cohesive, and focused public relations program.

That suggests to me that either Airbus corporate culture doesn't sufficiently include PR has a core component, or if they do, that the people running the PR shop are doing a poor job of making sure everybody knows what the corporate message is.

Either way Airbus has a serious case of Shoot-Your-Mouth-Off syndrome that they would be well served to eliminate.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2830 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6607 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):


So now it is in the press. About time. However, I have been saying this for a couple weeks now. The big question is who wins. Noel is the problem, and if he wins, which is likely, then that is very bad for Airbus.

I don't think Noel is neccessarily the problem, but I do think that he is very unlikely to survive the clearstream scandal.

People also need to remember that Leahy and Noel have been a package deal for quite a while. It was partially this combination that led to Airbus being where they are now. When Leahy was passed over for Airbus, the seeds were sown for some more fireworks.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):


This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
Condit was an engineer, and he caused problems for Boeing.

Condit got where he was because he had a better engineer (Mullally) working for him.


User currently offlineAbba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6558 times:

I still fail to see why it is a problem that there are discussions and fights going on within an organisation (occasionally leaking to the public). To have a strong man at the top - being chairman of the board and managing director at the same time - has in the past often proved to be less than ideal, in fact often disastrous. "Chaotic" organisations - even if they do not project an image of ununited we stand strong - are often much more dynamic and inventive.

Knowing that there is fighting going on in Airbus is to me encouraging - our best guarantee that they are not on their way to turn into an organisation like Boeing during the Condit years (that luckily seems now to be a thing of the past!)


Abba


25 Post contains links NAV20 : Well spotted, Halibut - this story is definitely new information. Rather breaks the first rule of effective PR, Abba - "If you have a problem, decide
26 Iwok : Humbert the man needed at the helm now. No matter how you suger coat this, its hard to see how Noel's betrayal of Airbus can be painted in any other
27 Abba : However, it still seems as if Airbus is able to react and make decisions in response to what happens in the world around them. And that is what matte
28 Post contains links NAV20 : Couldn't agree more, Abba. And, for that reason, it is important for any decisions to be taken quickly. The signs aren't good - if the evident disagr
29 Abba : As long as these two are fighting Airbus isn't faling asleep like Boeing during the years under Condit... Airbus isn't loosing credibility because of
30 Danny : Congrats to Halibut - your anti-Airbus threads changed from weekly to daily routine. One thing I would agree with you though is that Airbus does need
31 PolymerPlane : WOW.. hold on buddy, name one company that has more than one CEO beside Airbus and EADS. I am sure you would not come with many. IBM is still one of
32 Post contains images Glideslope : What a Cheer Leader. Are you blind? Do you really think it will benefit global aviation if Airbus fails? This has been going on for the last 2 years.
33 Post contains images Scouseflyer : What he going to if Airbus ever goes bust and leaves him with nothing to talk about? Good point though Danny, maybe their PR needs to be a bit slicke
34 Atmx2000 : You must have a strange definition of "wither" as IBM is bigger than Airbus, and bigger than EADS and BAE combined.
35 Scbriml : Pedants would point out that Airbus only has one CEO - Gustav Humbert. EADS, which currently owns 80% of Airbus, has joint CEOs - Noel Forgeard and T
36 Leelaw : I'm not sure BCA was in a deep coma during the Condit era, after all, the programs driving Boeing's current revival in the commercial sector, the 773
37 Trex8 : disgraced politicians who are forced from office frequently disappear and don't say much publicly about anything after they leave!
38 USAF336TFS : While you are quite correct about the products that were launched under his tenure, what disturbed me, as a shareholder, and I'm sure others, was Mr.
39 Post contains images Art : Come on now! Be realistic! It's not every day. Once or twice a week seems nearer the mark!
40 DAYflyer : Halibut vs Keesje......a strange parrallel to Humbert vs Foregeard......
41 Leelaw : Actually, it was the large institutional investors and "The Street" that demanded Boeing stop making very low yielding deals to preserve market share
42 N328KF : IBM has withered away? What crack are you smoking? Every next-generation game console (from Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo) has, at it's heart, tens o
43 USAF336TFS : Lee, I very rarely disagree with you, but while your characterization of Wall Street's past mentality is correct, history showed this same mentality
44 Post contains images Leelaw : We'll have to agree to disagree this time, it makes life more interesting. I think Condit gets a bum rap on this one, he was between a rock and a har
45 Abba : Sure the IBM you see today is a strong and well run company that has found its new place and mission in the world. I don't know your age - but people
46 DeltaDC9 : Funny how people on this site make this comment a lot, that IBM is not what it used to be. PC's and Notebooks are not high profit items compared to t
47 N328KF : They still are a dominant force. Just because you don't see their name on things in your house or at your store doesn't mean they don't have a hand i
48 DeltaDC9 : Not accurate. But it is too off topic to bother correcting, but I will give you a hint. It involves engineers, and a plane crash.
49 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'm going to agree with USAF336TFS here....I was much disappointed in the way Condit ran Boeing, and granted "The Street" needs to be happy for capit
50 DAYflyer : Very true. The Street has more tunnel vision and has a tendancy to be very short sighted.
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