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Las Vegas Air Traffic Controllers Warn Passengers  
User currently offlineJpj777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 75 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14984 times:

Did not see this posted yet (yes I searched) Interesting happinings at McCarren today with Las Vegas Air Traffic Controllers. KLAS TV Website.....
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4922930

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCwldude From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14902 times:

This is obviously a matter which needs addressing asap, but I don't think the actions they've taken are very appropriate, the last thing I'd want to see before I'm going to fly out of an airport, is an Air Traffic Controller telling me he doesn't believe the job he's doing is safe enough!

Hope it gets sorted out though, I'm due to be flying there in November so don't wanna be worrying about this!



Thomson Airways - The UKs premier charter airline // now flown : BY -AA -AJ -AE -AT; OO -AX -AU -RA -BG; BRIG; OBYD
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14817 times:

It isn't just at LAS, it is everywhere, including the next busy airport just 400 miles north at SLC.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=269096
While not militant as the PATCO people were back in '81, none the less, controllers want more from the FAA to do their jobs.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14788 times:
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Not good. LAS is already a very busy airport, and definitely needs the full staffing. Today they were strained more than normal I would bet, they switched runways a couple times and it took a while to get caught back up. Also, I don't understand in Vegas why they don't use the two sets of parallels better, they could be much more efficent.


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineJpj777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14719 times:

The runways are used in parallel, 90% of the time takeoff's are on 25R and landings are on 25L and also parallel takeoff's and landings on 19L & 19R, the only holdup is planes have to wait for takeoff on 25R if a plane is taking off on 19L-R (don't know which 19 is for which) and visa versa 19L-R planes hold while 25's are taking off. They only switch runway directions when we get wierd weather like today and yesterday with wind in from the east going west and pop-up thunderstorms which we had again today.

User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14664 times:

"Passenger safety is forcing air traffic controllers at McCarran International Airport to hand out leaflets with a warning to travelers. Today, air traffic controllers are handing out leaflets to passengers at McCarran. "


What could probably be called one of the worst openings in a news story ever... Thats so awkward to read...



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14576 times:

and this is one reason why i am a ATC student...

not to change the subject, but while i was at MSP last week, i saw 2 NWA mechanics complaining. normally i wouldn't find it funny, but it was like 40 degrees out and the jackets they were wearing to keep warm have NWA written all over them. personally, i would have a hard time complaining about the company that is keeping me from getting sick.


User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7124 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14400 times:

The US government needs to pay controllers decent money. Controllers should not be making below $40,000 or anything like that. If controllers made a good salary I would think about becoming one. Its not exactly an easy job and they deserve some money, if there salaries were a little higher than maybe some more people would think about going into the job, more educated people I say, Not saying controllers are not educated but a college degree is not needed. So why would someone who went to four years of college want to become ATC and make little money when they can get a more "normal" job and make more money.
ATC deserve money just like pilots do, but pilots fly for private companies ATC works for the government, the government can raise salaries, not saying by 50% here just a decent salary for someone with a job has hard as an ATC has.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14323 times:

Quoting Phelpsie87 (Reply 6):
it was like 40 degrees out and the jackets they were wearing to keep warm have NWA written all over them. personally, i would have a hard time complaining about the company that is keeping me from getting sick.

It's called a uniform which most employees pay for, I think NW might have a problem with workers walking around in name brand clothing at work.

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineSirOmega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14256 times:

I saw this on the news tonight too. The interesting statistic is that last year they had 14 incidents (I believe our own HAL was involved in one of them). Before the latest boom we've had, it was zero in a year.

LAS is 5th in the world on the list of most operations per year (2005) and grew by 11% over last year (and its been that way for the past 3 years or so). They need more ATCers. They seem to be keeping up with TSA staff at the security checkpoint (mostly), I cant see why they cant get more guys (and gals) in the tower.


User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13990 times:

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 7):
The US government needs to pay controllers decent money. Controllers should not be making below $40,000

Having been in the ground control tower at LAS (run by Clark County DOA), from what I have been told the FAA controllers at LAS average close to six figures or more, I do not recall if starting pay was mentioned, but I doubt it would be below $ 40,000/yr for a controller in a FAA tower at a major airport such as LAS. The ground control guys stated they make in the $ 70,000-85,000 area. I think your numbers may be a bit off, the $ 40,000/yr might be starting pay for a controller at a place like IGM.  Wink

Also from the tour and discussion with LAS ground control, they seem to hire a lot of ex- Air Force guys, for gorund control and FAA, not sure if it is do to proximity with Nellis AFB or what.


User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 13845 times:

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 10):
I doubt it would be below $ 40,000/yr for a controller in a FAA tower at a major airport such as LAS. The ground control guys stated they make in the $ 70,000-85,000 area.



Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 10):
Also from the tour and discussion with LAS ground control, they seem to hire a lot of ex- Air Force guys, for gorund control and FAA, not sure if it is do to proximity with Nellis AFB or what.

From the conversations that I have had with controllers and tours of ABQ Center and Approach, and several towers it seems that most controllers make fairly decent money. It also seems to be better at actual FAA staffed airports than the ones that are contracted out.

Also in my experience alot of them are ex-military, so it doesn't seem to be just in Vegas and the proximity to Nellis.

C27



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1859 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13680 times:
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LAS is not the only airport with ATC woes. Remember back in Feb after that big storm in NYC. How the forum was going steady about the JFK tower and its two controllers for the PM rush after a major snow storm. Planes were being sent back to their gates because they were runnig below thier tolerances.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2558 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13650 times:

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 9):
The interesting statistic is that last year they had 14 incidents (I believe our own HAL was involved in one of them). Before the latest boom we've had, it was zero in a year.

Yep! And my incident was with a fully staffed tower, yet the controller still cleared us to takeoff when he had already cleared another plane to cross our runway.

Do they need to remain fully staffed? Absolutely.
Does there need to be even more checks and procedures to prevent potential accidents like mine? Yes!
Will that cause delays? Most certainly yes.
Can we withstand even a slight decrease in safety? Hell no!

BTW, on a year-to-year basis (i.e. 5th year pilot vs. 5th year ATC controller), the controllers make more money than almost any pilot out there. I don't have a problem with that because they make the same sort of continuous split-second life-saving decisions that pilots do, and they do it for more hours each day, and handle more people's lives each day than we do. They are paid well, and deserve it.

HAL

[Edited 2006-05-19 09:52:33]


One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineJbmflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13289 times:

When you graduate from the Oklahoma City academy as an AG or Academy Graduate, you are already getting paid above $40,000. Then you go through the three phases of training based on the facility you are at. This can take between 2-5 years (depending if you are at a smaller or larger facility). The pay is based on the size of the facility from a level 1 to a level 12 (NY TRACON, ATL etc). The pay you max out at when you work at a level 12 when you reach CPC status (certified professional controller) can be close to $200,000 or more. You get paid time and a half for all work after 6 pm and double for all holidays. Then you get up to 18% (i believe) tagged onto your salary for locality pay to offset the cost of living. This raises your salary even more. The pay controllers recieve grossly outdoes any pay for any other FAA job. The pay cut in my mind is justified, they should get something more in line with other government jobs. They signed this pay contract during an economic upturn, now it is not the same situation. At the same time, when the FAA offered them a pay package the Controllers Union asked for $600 million more per year for pay for their controllers..........its rediculous.


just my two cents



famous last words "I'll get my MBA in Aviation, im a pilot, how hard can it be?"
User currently offlineJetboy757 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks ago) and read 12768 times:

I think a lot of people have the pay scales wrong. I'm currently an ATC student, and we were informed that a level 12 facility starts at around $95,000, and caps out at about $130,000. Now with the new FAA pay cut, the bottom of a level 12 would be around $70,000, and the top would be $95,000. Also, once out of OKC, you are not payed $40,000+. We were told it's around $20,000. This information can be found on the FAA website.

Also, I don't think anyone can really say that Controller's are over paid unless you've actually tried the job yourself, and have gone through all the training, all the testing, all the pressure of high scores and random placement. Knowing that only 13 controllers were hired last year, and hearing that your pay is going to be cut before you even start working. I'm in the 4 year degree program, and i'm working my ass off no matter what the pay.

[Edited 2006-05-19 14:11:32]

User currently offlineGoaliemn From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 463 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks ago) and read 12418 times:

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 8):
It's called a uniform which most employees pay for, I think NW might have a problem with workers walking around in name brand clothing at work.

They're not working at nw anymore.. they're on "strike" and replacement workers are doing their job.


User currently offlineSWAOPSusafATC From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11664 times:

I am one of many USAF air traffic controllers that are waiting for their enlistment to be up so we can take a job with the FAA. I have 4 friends that are out working minimum wage jobs waiting for the FAA to start hiring again. It is amazing to work next to someone doing the same job in the same airspace for 2-3 times the money you are making.

For the many ATC students- wait till you start working real aircraft and not a simulator. Completely different. The sim gives you an idea but once you are in front of the scope and talking to real pilots in real weather you will only have a slight idea of what it takes. I would say about 20% of controllers that make it through school wash out after 3 months or less of live training. Leave the ego at the door and learn, take advice and study study study!!


User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10590 times:

Quoting Jbmflyer (Reply 14):
The pay cut in my mind is justified, they should get something more in line with other government jobs.

Great we have yuppie MBA students in here, who only care about cutting costs and f*cking everybody else. You are not qualified to comment on another person's salary unless you know the first thing about the job.


User currently offlineSkymileman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10126 times:

Actually, they have even run the ads on TV here in Billings.

User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9149 times:

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 16):
Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 8):
It's called a uniform which most employees pay for, I think NW might have a problem with workers walking around in name brand clothing at work.

They're not working at nw anymore.. they're on "strike" and replacement workers are doing their job.

Which is why I found it humorous. Its no big deal Hawk44, I was just saying, at the time, I thought it was funny.

Quoting Jbmflyer (Reply 14):
When you graduate from the Oklahoma City academy as an AG or Academy Graduate, you are already getting paid above $40,000.

You make only about $20,000 at the Academy. Maybe $40,000 once you reach your facility, but not before.

Quoting Jbmflyer (Reply 14):
The pay you max out at when you work at a level 12 when you reach CPC status (certified professional controller) can be close to $200,000 or more.

Last I heard, the highest paid controllers were making below $190,000 and that's including benefits. In fact, the FAA is trying to renegotiate contracts and pay will drop.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wpdyn/...e/2006/04/05/AR2006040502420.html#


User currently offlineChristiaan From United States of America, joined May 2004, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8835 times:

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 10):
I do not recall if starting pay was mentioned, but I doubt it would be below $ 40,000/yr for a controller in a FAA tower at a major airport such as LAS. The ground control guys stated they make in the $ 70,000-85,000 area. I think your numbers may be a bit off, the $ 40,000/yr might be starting pay for a controller at a place like IGM.

Incorrect. Starting pay for an ATC Academy Grad is in the $30,000 range. At a Level 12 facility Base pay for a Certified Controller (CPC) is $102846 plus locality which varies from place to place.

Quoting Jbmflyer (Reply 14):
The pay you max out at when you work at a level 12 when you reach CPC status (certified professional controller) can be close to $200,000 or more. You get paid time and a half for all work after 6 pm and double for all holidays. Then you get up to 18% (i believe) tagged onto your salary for locality pay to offset the cost of living. This raises your salary even more. The pay controllers recieve grossly outdoes any pay for any other FAA job.

The ONLY way to make close to $200,000 per year as a controller is if you work 6 days a week. A fellow controller in CA worked 6 days a week for all of last year and didn't even crack $200k. To have the opportunity to get close to making that much $, you have to have 15-20+ years of service in The FAA and have gotten our yearly COST OF LIVING increases. 3% this year

We are NOT looking for a pay raise. We are looking for a FAIR compensation package which doesn't even include a raise. The FAA wants to change work rules, dress codes, Overtime, and Vacation all in their benefit.

As usual, most people have no Real clue as to the stress we deal with on a daily basis. If we are over paid at $120k per year, what about 747 drivers who make $200k or more? I have no problems with what a pilot makes.
Lets compare other countries controllers.
USA operations in 2005...over 41millions ops
Eurocontrol ops 2005...Slightly over 9 million ops.

FAA Pay $120
Eurocontrol $70

We make 40% more for 400% more traffic...



"Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities" Frank Lloyd Wright 1932
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2558 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7894 times:

Quoting Christiaan (Reply 21):
what about 747 drivers who make $200k or more?

Just to be fair, no major airline pays its pilots $200k for being a 747 Captain any more except UPS or FedEx (OK, MD-11 at FedEx).

United, NW, Delta, American; top pay for Captains there is in the $150k to $170k range now with all the cuts they've taken. And that's for only the most senior pilots on the biggest equipment - mid-size aircraft Captains (737, 757) make less. That doesn't include the loss of most of their pension or retirement benefits.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineChristiaan From United States of America, joined May 2004, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7551 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 22):
Just to be fair, no major airline pays its pilots $200k for being a 747 Captain any more except UPS or FedEx (OK, MD-11 at FedEx).

United, NW, Delta, American; top pay for Captains there is in the $150k to $170k range now with all the cuts they've taken. And that's for only the most senior pilots on the biggest equipment - mid-size aircraft Captains (737, 757) make less. That doesn't include the loss of most of their pension or retirement benefits.

HAL

Hal,
I'm not questioning Pilot pay at all and if that is how it came across, I appologise. I'm was attempting to explain that on both sides of the radio(pilot/controller) we make a very descent salary for the very stressful job we do everyday.



"Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities" Frank Lloyd Wright 1932
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7433 times:

The triple threat: A government employee...in a unionized environment...backed by a government agency making promises.


One Nation Under God
25 Post contains images DeltaDC9 : What an asinine and hypocritical comment. Unless you have worked 6 years to obtain an MBA and have used that education in practice, you are not quali
26 IAHFLYR : And there are few if any controllers that approach that figure either! With all the overtime, night pay, holiday, etc you'd have to work almost 6 day
27 SPREE34 : Absolutely incorrect. 2 Points, you are absolutely incorrect twice. This is good data, but will no longer be the case very shortly. Correct. Less tha
28 N1120A : You should probably learn how to spell the word ridiculous, because it will make your uninformed posts on this subject look a bit better. Beyond that
29 Tercer : This is a political move on part of NATCA playing the safety card to scare the traveling public during contract negotiations. If the controllers are
30 Post contains links N1120A : If you think this is a mere political move, perhaps you should note that 11 of the 60 controllers at NorCal Approach Control will hand in their retir
31 Post contains links Tercer : " target=_blank>www.fairfaa.com Like I said, a political tactic used by unions to boost positive public sentiment during contract negotiations, pilots
32 AirWillie6475 : Wow that dude had a nice mullet!! I thought ATC made like 200k a year, he looked like he could be a construction worker. Honestly, how hard is to say
33 N1120A : You should be absolutely flamed for this.
34 AirWillie6475 : sorry I'm just used to my lazy controllers at my local airport.
35 NW747-400 : Just a graduate of a CTI school, which is not difficult to do. There are 2 dozen or so scattered throughout the country and Puerto Rico.
36 Phelpsie87 : haha, your kidding right? PhD? Your wrong. Last I knew there were even some 2 years schools out there.
37 SPREE34 : What an absolutely splendid demonstration of your ignorance. A fair dose of arrogance as well. What you appear to know about ATC wouldn't fill a piss
38 Boeing7E7 : VFR all damn day, and this Union hack thinks he has a staffing problem? BS. Send this guy to New York Center and see how he does. I bet he lasts a hal
39 Jbmflyer : Don't ever tell me what I am, who I am, or what my intentions are when I reach the industry. Also, I am qualified to comment on whatever I want as I
40 SPREE34 : She is a political appointee who doesn't really know much about the realities of ATC or flying. "..from what I've heard.." That will get your can kic
41 Post contains images N1120A : Yep, you are probably right, and now I know.
42 Post contains images Mir : What the hell are you talking about? To be fair about lazy controllers, I visited a tower in Kalamazoo, MI, and there was one guy there who had absol
43 BayAreaPilot : And how many controllers does the FAA employ versus how many Eurocontrol employs? It's impossible to draw a conclusion without that information. Not
44 Post contains links and images ATCme : A controller's job is hard depending on which airport you work at. I've visited KJBC (Jeffco Airport) a few times and yes they don't do an awful lot,
45 Christiaan : The cost of living and the quantity of workers is irrelevant. What I suggested was that if FAA controllers make X and Euro controllers make Y and FAA
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