Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc  
User currently offlineBHXDTW From Eritrea, joined Feb 2005, 1090 posts, RR: 5
Posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6668 times:

Hi,
Was just wondering if anyone had an update on the situation between US carriers and LHR...
I know currently only 2 British n 2 American carriers can serve LHR from the US but hasnt their been some talk of LHR opening up to DL/CO/NW/US at some point ?
Personally I think it unfair that whilst airlines such as AI can fly onwards from LHR to the US, the likes of DL and CO cant..
Any chance this will one day be reversed ? Also is SQ still chasing rights to fly onwards from LHR ??

Joe

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6625 times:

No chance for CO, DL and NW flying to LHR. I can't see it happens

User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5155 posts, RR: 33
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 1):
No chance for CO, DL and NW flying to LHR. I can't see it happens

It will happen eventually. The EU is pushing for an open skies agreement, eventually they will strike up a deal that everyone agrees on, full access to LHR will be part of that deal.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6564 times:

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 2):
It will happen eventually. The EU is pushing for an open skies agreement, eventually they will strike up a deal that everyone agrees on, full access to LHR will be part of that deal.

Myabe so, but the only slots they'll get will be crap one's, if any at all.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6564 times:

Wasn't it CO that opposed Open Sky agreement with EU so fiercely?

User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6545 times:

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 2):
It will happen eventually. The EU is pushing for an open skies agreement, eventually they will strike up a deal that everyone agrees on, full access to LHR will be part of that deal.

I cannot see this happening. As part of the deal, UK and other European airlines will want cabotage rights within the US, which is very unlikely to be granted. Full access to LHR (assuming that slot availability can be overcome) is the ace that the UK holds. Once they open up LHR, this will be lost forever.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6484 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 3):
Myabe so, but the only slots they'll get will be crap one's, if any at all.

Exactly!

If these guys think with open skies they will get the slots they want at favourable times then they are kidding themselves.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6484 times:

They can buy slots from other airlines.

User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5155 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6466 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 6):
If these guys think with open skies they will get the slots they want at favourable times then they are kidding themselves.

If they are prepared to pay for them they will soon get decent enough slots.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 5):
I cannot see this happening. As part of the deal, UK and other European airlines will want cabotage rights within the US, which is very unlikely to be granted. Full access to LHR (assuming that slot availability can be overcome) is the ace that the UK holds. Once they open up LHR, this will be lost forever.

Yea, cabotage rights are part of the current deal, but if this fails they will soon hash out a new deal, and you can bet your ass access to LHR will be part of that.

To say it will never happen is just crazy, one day it will happen, it may be 5, 10 or 50 years down the line, but it is enevitable.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineBritannia191A From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6452 times:

I wish to keep this statement simple and any comments keep within the point of the comment but this agreement whereby only select routes and airlines can use LHR to the US, would ther be an arguement that if one of these airlines wants to fly the airbus A380 to and from the US, they could say you are stopping us from doing that. Ill give an example

Delta flies LGW to ATL and cannot fly LHR to ATL. Lets say Delta wanted to buy an A380 (dont start discussions around this) and lets say ATL is A380 approved and LGW isnt. Could DL have a case whereby they say that this agreement is preventing us from flying the route because LGW is not A380 approved. Just a thought for discussion but please keep to the point of what I am trying to say. I think this opens this question for other airports whereby they are allocated slots and route but the A380 prevents them from flying from their normal local airport.


User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6435 times:

Now that the KL/AF merger is going so well financially, BA is at risk for becoming, over time, a marginal player in the EU. It wont happen overnight but it could easily happen if BA/AA does not get ATI from the USA and probably even merge with IB. To keep up with the changing airline landscape in the EU. BA most likley will want to merge. By merging with IB it will give them another airport so they can move some excess capacity to MAD which will open some slots at LHR.

As Spain and the UK have air treaties with the US, any merger would require approval from the US.

You can be absolutely certain and can bet the farm that for this to happen the US would absolutely require openkies at LHR including slots and terminal facilities for all US carriers.Frankly, all of this, I believe, will happen much, much sooner than later. Most likely in the next few years.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6418 times:

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
If they are prepared to pay for them they will soon get decent enough slots

True enough but another point is are they in a position to pay for those slots?


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6418 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 11):
True enough but another point is are they in a position to pay for those slots?

CO and US may be, but DL and NW are not.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineBHXDTW From Eritrea, joined Feb 2005, 1090 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6347 times:

If anything, I think CO would be first to apply for slots if they were allowed too.. in fact I would imagine they would still keep regular service into LGW and just supplement it with a daily service into LHR to EWR and IAH..
The only carriers into EWR from LHR is VS n BA at the moment... though having said that, I doubt CO would want to ruffle VS's feathers on that route.
LHR-IAH on the other hand though could be ideal as CO already compete with BA on the LGW-IAH route and no one serves IAH from LHR...

(of course if PK ever want to fly from England to IAH, maybe they would use LHR ?)


User currently offlineSparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6340 times:

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
To say it will never happen is just crazy, one day it will happen, it may be 5, 10 or 50 years down the line, but it is enevitable.

Well, so far it's been over 60 years. I'm not going to hold my breath. Bermuda II will probably be around to stay for quite a while longer, as it's the only card the British have to hold off the Americans...

SparkingWave ~~~



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6317 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
CO and US may be, but DL and NW are not.

World Traveler and the Delta lovers on here would probably say that Delta has billions and will open their own terminal at Heathrow.. wink 


User currently offlineArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6317 times:

BA and VS have it too good to give up anything. You can't really blame them.

The UK consumer will just continue to pay a higher premium due to the lack of competition.

If you'd like a good example of this. Check how Lufthansa and Airfrance have grown over the last two decades in comparison to BA. Check the growth of FRA and CDG in comparison to LON traffic.

The UK made a choice and now they can live with. Less growth, less global trade, less aviation business. Higher prices.

About the only competition between BA and VS is to see who's F class toilet paper is the fanciest..LOL


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3477 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days ago) and read 6245 times:

"Delta flies LGW to ATL and cannot fly LHR to ATL. Lets say Delta wanted to buy an A380 (dont start discussions around this) and lets say ATL is A380 approved and LGW isnt. Could DL have a case whereby they say that this agreement is preventing us from flying the route because LGW is not A380 approved. Just a thought for discussion but please keep to the point of what I am trying to say. I think this opens this question for other airports whereby they are allocated slots and route but the A380 prevents them from flying from their normal local airport."

Actually, ATL isn't and won't be A380 ready. No need to worry about the folks on the other side of the pond with that one.

PJ


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days ago) and read 6213 times:

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):
BA and VS have it too good to give up anything

Granted they have a "jewel in a crown" but are not AA and UA in the same position (in fact a better position bearing in mind that they can take passengers beyond their hubs in the US)?

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):
The UK consumer will just continue to pay a higher premium due to the lack of competition

Apart from full-fares in business/first class (and how many people actually pay the full-fare?) competition between the carriers on this route keeps the fares artificially low. In fact a French or Italian could find it cheaper to fly BA in Y via LHR than direct from CDG or FCO. Besides, what about Air India and Kuwait Airways who can also fly LHR-JFK? I have heard a rumour that due to fierce competition on the LHR-JFK/EWR route and the airlines chasing for the same passengers with low fares, LHR-YYZ is more profitable for BA.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):
Check how Lufthansa and Airfrance have grown over the last two decades in comparison to BA. Check the growth of FRA and CDG in comparison to LON traffic

You are forgetting that LHR and LGW are surrounded by built-up areas and therefore (apart from massive compulsory purchase of land/homes, not to mention all the Public Hearings that would follow) have no room for expansion like CDG or FRA. And how exactly have Lufthansa and Air France outgrown BA, apart from their merger with/takeover of KLM and Swiss?



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6179 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 17):
Delta flies LGW to ATL and cannot fly LHR to ATL. Lets say Delta wanted to buy an A380 (dont start discussions around this) and lets say ATL is A380 approved and LGW isnt. Could DL have a case whereby they say that this agreement is preventing us from flying the route because LGW is not A380 approved. Just a thought for discussion but please keep to the point of what I am trying to say. I think this opens this question for other airports whereby they are allocated slots and route but the A380 prevents them from flying from their normal local airport."

Actually, ATL isn't and won't be A380 ready. No need to worry about the folks on the other side of the pond with that one.

I seriously doubt B2 will be amended to allow access based on aircraft type.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6151 times:

Quoting BCAL (Reply 18):
Granted they have a "jewel in a crown" but are not AA and UA in the same position (in fact a better position bearing in mind that they can take passengers beyond their hubs in the US)?

Glen Tilton the CEO of UA is on the record for saying he wants open skies to open up the competition, not least so that they can add routes such as DEN-LHR.


User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6080 times:

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 1):
No chance for CO, DL and NW flying to LHR. I can't see it happens

So does that mean that US has a chance, cuase you failed to include them. I could imagine that US would do well on a PHL/LHR run.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineKangarooMAN From Ireland, joined May 2006, 127 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

Hi BHXDTW

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 13):
(of course if PK ever want to fly from England to IAH, maybe they would use LHR ?)

Just a little FYI for ya if you didn't know they already do here from 'the biggest PK hub outside of pakistan' MAN they fly the route with 742's

Roo



A/C Flown EI 146&320, MYT 763&333, WW 733&735, AZ 319&MD80, LS 146, FR 738, 2L F100, LX 320&321, A3 RJ100, FI 752 AB 738
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11630 posts, RR: 61
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5807 times:

I doubt it will happen this year, as it's an election year in the U.S. If they get the deal done by the end of 2007, I'll be surprised. If they get it done by the end of 2006, I'll be shocked. The idiots in Congress are too busy listening to stupid, tired, has-been protectionist pleas from a multitude of lobbies, ranging from labor unions to the Defense Department to, strangely, Continental Airlines, telling them that the U.S. will be irreperably harmed by signing this liberalized bilateral with the E.U., which will lead to enormous new opportunities for U.S. carriers and their employees. It's absolutely pothetic, but it's reality.

The ironic part is that the U.S. side has basically gotten every single thing it wanted from the E.U. -- the Europeans caved on virtually everything. They gave up the guarantee of direct cabotage within the U.S. and gave up the demand that 'Fly USA' end. The U.S. would not be a complete winner in the deal, either, though, as the U.S. had to give up its primary demand relating to Heathrow that airlines already there be forced to give up slots so new U.S. carriers could fly there. The U.K. won on that round and refused. Nonetheless, this is definitely the best deal that the two sides have been able to work out in years, and the U.S. should take it while it's still on the table.

Unfortunately, until the spineless morons in Congress are willing to let up on the administration's proposal to loosen ownership rules on U.S. carriers, which would conceivably be a precursor to any deal being signed, there won't be any movement on the new U.S.-E.U. bilateral.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):

If you'd like a good example of this. Check how Lufthansa and Airfrance have grown over the last two decades in comparison to BA. Check the growth of FRA and CDG in comparison to LON traffic.

LH control about between 60-80% of all slots at FRA.....while I don't know what percentage of slots AF owns at CDG, its quite high...where as BA only control 40% of slots in one of the fiercest airports in the world.......LHR...BA has done a very good job defending themselves...though I think their move out of Saudi Arabia was asinine (probably union related)..I see the "security" issue as rubbish as BD is actually increasing C class seats on its LHR-RUH route (as well as LHR-JED starting).....regardless...BA is doing quite well...

fair use excerpt:

"British Airways 4Q Profit Soars to $151M

Fri May 19, 4:56 PM ET

LONDON - British Airways PLC reported a leap in fourth-quarter profit Friday after higher ticket prices and demand for flights outweighed a sharply higher fuel bill. Shares in the carrier soared as it also raised its revenue guidance for the current financial year.

BA said net profit for the three months to March 31 came to 80 million pounds ($151 million) from just 1 million pounds a year earlier.

The airline's pretax profit for the quarter of 91 million pounds ($171 million) was well ahead of the 51 million pounds ($96 million) expected by analysts.

Revenue rose 13 percent to 2.1 billion pounds ($4 billion) on higher-margin premium traffic and ticket surcharges."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060519/...ge/earns_britain_british_airways_1



"Up the Irons!"
25 VV701 : The facts - and not the hyperbole - are that the EU and UK are asking for Open Skies and this is being resisted by CO and the US Congress. The UK rec
26 Moose1226 : Pardon my ignorance, but what is 'Fly USA'?
27 VV701 : Federal employees (including members of the armed forces) must fly on a US airline whenever possible. There are no such restrictions on, for example,
28 Commavia : Well, let's be honest, everyone knew that demand was never going to happen. Had the Europeans kept up the stance that it was full cabotage, or no dea
29 Boeingguy1 : Pardon my ignorance... whats the diffrence flying between LHR and LGW? They both have ample transportation facilities to/fro london.
30 Atmx2000 : This has been speculated on before. Given LH's and AF's acquisition activity in Europe, I wonder how long BA can stay out of the game. I wonder if th
31 Viscount630 : Highly unlikely - there's simply not the spare capacity, either on the runways, by way of slots, or in the Terminals by way of floorspace!
32 Scotron11 : A few months back, Delta stated that one of their priorities was getting access to LHR as part of their international expansion. As to the question of
33 COSPN : "Pardon my ignorance... whats the diffrence flying between LHR and LGW? They both have ample transportation facilities to/fro london." Almost ZERO onw
34 Apodino : I personally hope this never happens. As a traveller who has used both LGW and LHR, I find that I like LGW a lot better. Its easier to get in and out
35 MasseyBrown : On the subject of cabotage, what exactly is the EU seeking? Are US domestic traffic rights subject to a long haul restriction acceptable to the EU neg
36 BCAL : LGW is not surrounded by built-up areas as much as LHR, but their expansion is restricted by the fact that it has a single runway and it is restricte
37 HanginOut : Star could be a beneficiary, but all lot will depend on what happens with BMI. Does Bishop force Lufthansa and SAS to buy him out or will he continue
38 STT757 : CO wants 6 daily EWR-LHR slots, if they have access to Heathrow they don't need VS.
39 Post contains images SESGDL : And MalpensaSFO and the Delta haters on here will continue to speak their ignorance about DL and everything that regards DL. Jeremy
40 Cf6ppe : Can someone who has done the LHR to LGW plane/airport (change) shuffle elaborate on the steps a US passported traveler goes through when arriving to L
41 Apodino : Be more than happy to. As you may be well aware, all US passport holders have to fill out a landing card upon arrival into the UK. Basically what I d
42 COSPN : Are you then Exempted from the USD 100 UK Depature TAX ????
43 Hjulicher : It doesn't really make sense to me why LHR is so desirable for CO, NW, DL, and US. I mean, there's really no need for them to fly into LHR. I would al
44 TristarSteve : All the terminals at LHR are owned by the BAA, who allocate gates. In Europe airlines do not own terminals and gates. So DL could never own their own
45 VV701 : I do not disagree. But is it not therefore ironic that UA already has some access to the EU internal market (like LHR-FRA) even though they do not us
46 Gigneil : Open skies will not fabricate new slots. N
47 FlyDeltaJets : I havent been to the city of London yet but whats the real difference between LGW and LHR. It's not like they can't fly to London. Is there something
48 Scotron11 : I havent been to the city of London yet but whats the real difference between LGW and LHR. Other than the fact the LHR is a lousy airport, the connec
49 BCAL : LHR is regarded as the main airport for London and handles far more traffic, particularly international traffic, than LGW. It is the main hub for BA
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
When Will WN Open Up Reservations 4 After Jun 6th? posted Wed Feb 9 2005 06:10:00 by IslipWN
When Will The DOT Rule On DL/NW/CO posted Sun Dec 1 2002 15:49:00 by DeltAirlines
DL's BOS Terminal: When Will It Open? posted Wed Jan 28 2004 14:36:13 by ChrisNH
When Will MD-11 Flights On DL Switch To 763s? posted Tue Nov 5 2002 02:03:25 by Airplanetire
When Will AC Return Service To MSY? posted Wed Feb 8 2006 03:46:57 by Simairlinenet
Airbus... Boeing... When Will They Catch Up? posted Fri Jan 20 2006 09:11:59 by BigJimFX
Just Curious When Will ANA Firm Up Their 787 Order posted Tue Aug 23 2005 03:21:44 by Georgiabill
When Will BA Bring 747 To IAH? posted Sat Mar 26 2005 02:01:04 by COAIAH
When Will NCL Say Goobye To Fr 732? posted Tue Oct 5 2004 11:00:52 by Sevenair
When Will China Rights Offered To USA Again? posted Thu Aug 7 2003 19:03:28 by ConcordeBoy