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Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled  
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10790 times:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Good job by the French and Swiss intelligence services.

I think that the second half of the article misses the point. An RPG is not a guided weapon. It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory). The counter measures, be they infrared or radar based, would have no effect on an RPG attack.

While I think that defensive countermeasures are a good idea, I think some people are going to be lulled into a false sense of security.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDoofus From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10532 times:

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory).

Do you mean "parabolic" instead of "hyperbolic"? Unless I'm missing something here.
.


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10472 times:

from the article:

"When the matter was reported to Israeli security, El Al changed the flight paths of all its Geneva-bound planes, landing them at Zurich Airport the following week."

wow. fuel reserve to circle for a full week?


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10452 times:

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 1):
Fortunately, with improved airport security these days, it is extremely difficult, if not mathematically impossible, to shoot down a jet with a handheld missile launcher.

Difficult yes, impossible no. The weapon used was not a guided missile but a RGP, which is a relatively short range weapon, with an effect range of 300 meters and a maximum of about a kilometer. However, if it hit a fuel tank, then look out.

The 9K38 Igla (aka SA-18) has a vertical range of about 3.5 km and with a 2 Kg warhead would do serious damage to most airliners. Would it survive? Maybe. A DHL A300 survived one a couple years ago at Baghdad.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1039411,00.html


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5266 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10418 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 5):
wow. fuel reserve to circle for a full week?

LOL!

I'm hoping that the day never comes when an attack like this is successfully launched in the US - or even attempted. Yes, I care about other countries, but I'm just referring to my home market.

It would certainly impact many folk's decision to fly, and would, I believe, be much more frightening than a hijacking scenario. With hijacking, you can fight back, or at least keep your eyes out for suspicious activity. With a RPG or missile of some sort, you basically would stare out the window with a helpless fear.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10390 times:

Quoting Doofus (Reply 3):
Do you mean "parabolic" instead of "hyperbolic"? Unless I'm missing something here.

Yep. U R correct.


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10367 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
I'm hoping that the day never comes when an attack like this is successfully launched in the US - or even attempted. Yes, I care about other countries, but I'm just referring to my home market.

It would certainly impact many folk's decision to fly, and would, I believe, be much more frightening than a hijacking scenario. With hijacking, you can fight back, or at least keep your eyes out for suspicious activity. With a RPG or missile of some sort, you basically would stare out the window with a helpless fear.

I always used to wonder about this threat, especially with the advent of accurate shoulder fired surface to air missles.
I am much heartened to learn that a missle hit (should terrorists succeed in a plot such as this) does not necessarily down the plane - recent examples are a C5 and A-300, both hit out of Baghdad.


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As good as security and intellegence can be, it's good to know there is a back-up plan: piloting skills.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10018 times:

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
An RPG is not a guided weapon. It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory). The counter measures, be they infrared or radar based, would have no effect on an RPG attack.

While I think that defensive countermeasures are a good idea, I think some people are going to be lulled into a false sense of security.

Absolutely correct. An aircraft is still vulnerable to this type of attack, especially if it is on the ground/parked at the gate.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9818 times:

And people wonder why El Al has extra security....

User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9511 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):
I always used to wonder about this threat, especially with the advent of accurate shoulder fired surface to air missles.
I am much heartened to learn that a missle hit (should terrorists succeed in a plot such as this) does not necessarily down the plane - recent examples are a C5 and A-300, both hit out of Baghdad.

That picture of the A300 is amazing, I can't believe that thing could still fly!


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8918 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
That picture of the A300 is amazing, I can't believe that thing could still fly!

It must have required extraordinary pilot skills to be able to fly it with only one aileron and a half busted wing. Of course, they must have used assymetric thrust and rudder input to keep the aircraft level, but combined with the wing in this state, the pilots really worked to the last to make the aircraft land safe.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):
As good as security and intellegence can be, it's good to know there is a back-up plan: piloting skills.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8060 times:

I can see it now.....instant arrest and shipment to Cuba for anyone standing outdoors or rolling down a car window within 5 miles of an airport. That is the only possible defence against this type of unguided missle attack.
javascript:smilie_click('sarcastic')
Or conversly I think the optimal defence would be for governments everywhere to encourage large groups of voluntary spotters with cameras and notepads to monitor airport activity and report any suspicious activity around the perimeter to the proper authorities. And if they also manage to get some great photos to post to A.net (the best website ever!!) then that is just a happy bonus. Sadly however I feel that the world will never see the plus side to our hobby. People just don't seem to understand that as enthusiasts we would do almost anything to prevent bad things from happening to our beloved airlines and airliners. They have "minutemen" for the US border, why not allow for recruitment of similar people for observation of our airports. Then any enthusiast could volunteer and not be hassled for being near an airport with a camera.
Sorry I got way off track there, I am very glad that a possible catastrophe was averted. It just annoys me that 99% of the world would get along fine if left to go about their lives, but there is always 1% that seems to want to wreck things for everyone.



Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2480 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
I think that the second half of the article misses the point. An RPG is not a guided weapon. It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory). The counter measures, be they infrared or radar based, would have no effect on an RPG attack.

Actually, that appeared to be the exact point of the second half of the article.



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineNumbertwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5946 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
That picture of the A300 is amazing, I can't believe that thing could still fly!

true, also when you take in consideration that under normal circumstances AA is able to make an accident with a 300



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User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Unfairly, this is why many non-Israelis avoid EL AL. People should just leave them alone.

User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 931 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5131 times:
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The possibility of either a single shoulder fired missile attack is worrisome enough, but should the terrorists ever get their act together, imagine a coordinated attack worldwide, one or two aircraft hit at dozens of different airports more or less simultaneously.

User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1096 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5045 times:
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Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
It must have required extraordinary pilot skills to be able to fly it with only one aileron and a half busted wing. Of course, they must have used assymetric thrust and rudder input to keep the aircraft level, but combined with the wing in this state, the pilots really worked to the last to make the aircraft land safe.

IIRC, the a/c lost all three hydraulic systems and maneuvered and landed, very nicely given the circumstances, using assymetric thrust alone.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 17):
Unfairly, this is why many non-Israelis avoid EL AL. People should just leave them alone.

You're much more likely to be effected by terrorism on a non- El Al flight...


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6639 posts, RR: 78
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4005 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
You're much more likely to be effected by terrorism on a non- El Al flight...

I doubt that. Most airlines aren't blacklisted by terrorists, Israeli carriers certainly are. Though security may be tight, the risk of being attacked by whatever means is always there, more or less.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 21):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
You're much more likely to be effected by terrorism on a non- El Al flight...


I doubt that. Most airlines aren't blacklisted by terrorists, Israeli carriers certainly are. Though security may be tight, the risk of being attacked by whatever means is always there, more or less.


PH

I think RJ is right, do the math. How many terrorist attacks have there been on LY compare to the how many terrorist attacks have been through out the world.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):

Whats the story on the C5.
Fantastic Flying by the DHL crew on the A300 though  bigthumbsup 
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6639 posts, RR: 78
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

Quoting Amirs (Reply 19):
I think RJ is right, do the math. How many terrorist attacks have there been on LY compare to the how many terrorist attacks have been through out the world.

And how many airlines are out there which have never been attacked or which have never even faced an attempt? Having a large number of enemies is a potential risk, strict security or not.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 12):
Actually, that appeared to be the exact point of the second half of the article.

Wow. I thought I was crazy when I saw your post because the article I read said nothing about the countermeasures being ineffective against and RPG attack. I went back to the link I posted and they updated the article to address that specific point.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3314 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 21):
And how many airlines are out there which have never been attacked or which have never even faced an attempt? Having a large number of enemies is a potential risk, strict security or not.

Except that more or less every airplane/airline faces a potential threat, especially American (the country) airlines.....That said, assuming that I'm just at risk on Continental as on El Al, I'd hands down rather be on El Al because of their security measures.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6639 posts, RR: 78
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 23):
Except that more or less every airplane/airline faces a potential threat, especially American (the country) airlines.....

American carriers are blacklisted, too, unfortunately. But countless carriers aren't, therefore these don't really face a comparable potential threat.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3362 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

I'd feel safer on El AL than I would AA.


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