Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
"T" Tail Questions  
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8554 times:

I was thinking a little bit ago about the "T" tail and its history. Who was the first to build the "T" tail? Boeing with the 727 or Douglas with the DC-9? And is there any more of a benefit with a 727, 717 or DC-9 as opposed to the 737, A320, etc.?


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8543 times:

A conventional tail probably won't work properly on aircraft with all of its engines rear-mounted, and a T-tail would look odd on an aircraft with wing-mounted engines IMO.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8543 times:

I mainly meant..why build the 727? or why build the DC-9?


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8530 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Thread starter):
Who was the first to build the "T" tail? Boeing with the 727 or Douglas with the DC-9?

IIRC this was the first T-tail jet a/c :-


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick Bajcar



 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8514 times:

Ok..then i guess neither boeing or douglas  Smile But that picture above is sure an ugly ass plane!!


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8463 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
a T-tail would look odd on an aircraft with wing-mounted engines IMO.



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Menso van Westrhenen - MilAvia Press
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joop de Groot - CRMAP



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Piotr Biskupski
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Korbinian Klinghardt



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stuart Haigh - topjetpix
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Stephen



[Edited 2006-05-19 22:36:42]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8450 times:

I did not think of those...didn't the original 727 design have engines on the wings?


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8450 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 6):
I did not think of those...didn't the original 727 design have engines on the wings?

I thought the original design of the 757 had a T-tail with the 707/727/737 nose.


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8433 times:

Maybe you are right...i just remember reading some book and they had a "prototype" picture that looked very funky.


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3011 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8433 times:

The TU-134 first flew in 1962. So that was an early bird as well.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Craig McCorriston



Aeroflot777


User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8415 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 4):
But that picture above is sure an ugly ass plane!!

Maybe not to your tastes, but that "ugly ass plane" brought a new generation of first's to the aviation industry.

Also if the UK Government had not insisted on the design being so specific to one airline (and same with the VC-10), then the aircraft industry could look very different today.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 8385 times:

Some older planes with T-tails include the Handley-Page Victor

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerard Helmer
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wolfgang Jarisch


the Martin Marlin
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

and the Gloster Javelin
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael O Bern



User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8373 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 3):

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Sud Est SE-210 Caravelle the first T-tailer? The Caravelle made its maiden flight in the 1950s while the Trident only took to the air in 1962.


User currently offlineShowerOfSparks From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8289 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 12):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Sud Est SE-210 Caravelle the first T-tailer?

But the Caravelle doesn't have a T-Tail, I think it barely rates as a cruciform tail.


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8276 times:

Quoting ShowerOfSparks (Reply 13):
But the Caravelle doesn't have a T-Tail, I think it barely rates as a cruciform tail.

Hm. Good point. I guess it's a matter of interpretation. I've always thought of T-tail as a tail where the horizontal stabilizer is mounted on the tailfin, but I must say I don't know if that complies with official classification. So it might indeed not be a T-tailed aircraft. Mea culpa.

OV735


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8257 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 14):
I've always thought of T-tail as a tail where the horizontal stabilizer is mounted on the tailfin, but I must say I don't know if that complies with official classification.

And all this time, I thought it meant "a tail that resembles a capital-letter T."



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineDash80 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8235 times:

Found this on http://www.hs121.org, a Trident preservation organization.

A drawing of an early trident version.



User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4899 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

Does the T-tail have any significant heavy lifting benefits over a conventional tail? The reason I ask is that a number of military heavy lift birds have this type of tail.

Also in terms of design philosophy why is it that a lot of Russian birds adopted this style, was it due to them favouring rear mounted engines?

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8183 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 15):
And all this time, I thought it meant "a tail that resembles a capital-letter T."

Well, my T's look like the Caravelle's tail. And yes, I have been told a number of times that my handwriting is illegible.  Silly

Quoting YOWza (Reply 17):
Also in terms of design philosophy why is it that a lot of Russian birds adopted this style, was it due to them favouring rear mounted engines?

I have heard that when Nikita Khruschev was visiting France in the very early 1960's, he flew there on a Tu-104 (where the engines are mounted in the wing root), and during his visit the French gave him a demo flight in a Caravelle. Khruschev was impressed by the low cabin noise in the French jet, compared to the Tu-104, resulting directly from the fact that the engines were mounted in the rear of the plane.

As he went back home to Moscow, he wanted Tupolev to make a new and better version of the Tu-124 with rear-mounted engines. The result was the Tu-134.

Practically the only way to have rear-mounted engines is to also have a T-tail, which the Tu-134 got. I guess Tupolev (and Ilyushin) saw it good and thus the later Il-62 and Tu-154 also had a T-tailed design.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3954 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8178 times:

Aircraft with a T-tail generally have a high wing or rear-mountend engines, so advantages must be related to that. I'm sure it has been discussed here.

As well as the Javelin, a few other fighers had a T-tail.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Lednicer
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerard Helmer


A disadvantage was blanking out the airflow over the tailplane at high angles of attack. The proposed Starfighter successor, the Lancer, had a low tail.

The Sabreliner has rear-mounted engines and a low tail.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bruce Leibowitz



Peter



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineMandargb From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8162 times:

I think the problem was engine mounting on the wing was not all that sophisticated.
So they (HS Trident, TUs, ILs, DC-9s, and boeing) etc ended up mounting engines on the body. And the best place was near the rear end.
With that engine bulk there they had to make the tail as "T".
T tail I think has some disadvantage in the landing configuration that the low air flow over the control surfaces on the tail (vertical stabilizer) can be a problem.
This is because the whole body of the plane kind of in the front of the T tail in this configuration now blocks in this configuration.
(Read threads on 727 landing and some accident reposrs)


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8116 times:

What about the might VC-10. A more beautiful T-tail you will struggle to find.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Evans



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark McEwan



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Chris Lofting



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean-Pierre Bonin



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeremy Paul Lister



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nick Salmon




Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineSkydrol From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 974 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7914 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
a T-tail would look odd on an aircraft with wing-mounted engines IMO.

It can be!!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Richard Barsby - Aviation Photography CYEG



When in doubt, try a little of everything:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Montague Smith-Photovation Images
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kevin Wachter





LD4



∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2777 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7901 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 17):
Also in terms of design philosophy why is it that a lot of Russian birds adopted this style, was it due to them favouring rear mounted engines?

The Russians designed their aircraft to be rugged, and be able to operate out of some pretty basic airstrips, including gravel runways. Putting the engines up on the tail reduced the chances of sucking debris into the engines.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4899 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7828 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 18):
The result was the Tu-134.



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 23):
The Russians designed their aircraft to be rugged

Both great tidbits, thanks guys.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
25 Thecheese : T-tails are a benefit to some designs, because they keep the horizontal control surface well away from the wing's lift-shadow at low angles-of-attack
26 LTU932 : No, it was one of the original 757 designs that had a T-Tail. Does anyone have a picture of that T-Tail 757 design?
27 Post contains images Andz : Looks okay to me!
28 Post contains images Rampkontroler : Thanks for the laugh! Ouch! Exactly! Tis all in the eye of the beholder! I can't imagine what you would think of its unique landing gear configuratio
29 Post contains links Yhmfan : This is what I found on Wikepedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-tail There are pros and cons to this arrangement. Pros The tailplane surfaces are k
30 KevinBG : I worked for Boeing(in Everett) on the 767 program in the late 70's. The original 767 and 757 design did have "T" tails. The idea was that they'd use
31 Mogget : The Trident may have been a classic, but that nosewheel configuration looks ridiculous.
32 Post contains images BeechNut : My guess is that it has something to do with rear loading, it keeps the horizontal stabilizer out of the way of being potentially damaged during load
33 Sphealey : I have read in many sources that an additional factor was that Juan Trippe thought T-tails looked cool, and pressured both Boeing and Douglas to use t
34 Post contains links and images Andz : Here ya go... Or no engine at all! View Large View MediumPhoto © Marc Michel
35 Post contains links and images Garri767 : This one has to be high on the list - View Large View MediumPhoto © Justin Stephenson
36 Post contains links and images ATCT : Its called a "Mid-Mounted" tail. View Large View MediumPhoto © Frank C. Duarte Jr. Note the JetStar View Large View MediumPhoto © Robert Be
37 Post contains images Leezyjet : I did think about the Caravelle, but then decided that it wasn't a true T-tail in the context of this thread.
38 Post contains images DeltaRules : Two more T-tails with wing mounted engines: DeltaRules
39 RayChuang : If I remember correctly, the first time they discovered the problem with deep stall on a T-tail plane was during a high angle-of-attack test with the
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Continental's "Global Tail" posted Sat Jan 21 2006 07:52:08 by CYEGsTankers
CO "H" Class Fare Questions posted Tue Dec 6 2005 05:30:23 by Lincoln
Why Did Eastern Remove Some "757" On Tail? posted Fri Aug 5 2005 03:05:10 by Wayfarer
"Black Tail" 727 Freighter At Sjc? posted Wed Jul 3 2002 05:44:28 by Sllevin
Airbus "WHITE-TAIL" Aircraft posted Sat Jun 2 2001 16:48:41 by Dutchjet
"T" Tail Questions posted Fri May 19 2006 22:04:16 by 7E72004
"The Red Tail" Movie posted Sun Apr 23 2006 15:10:26 by DTW757
Questions Regarding The "er" Designation posted Mon Mar 6 2006 23:25:03 by JakeOrion
"The Red Tail" Movie About NWA And Employees posted Thu Mar 2 2006 05:04:57 by AirWest
A Few Questions: A310, DCA And Wide Body "Time" posted Tue Aug 24 2004 11:51:25 by FJWH