AeroWesty From United States, joined Oct 2004, 15634 posts, RR: 66 Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6028 times:
Quoting Oneskyjet (Reply 1): they introduced it as Clipper Class on the batch of L1011's they bought.
Interesting ... we'll have to dig up when PA started service with the L-1011!
For myself, I recall flying Business Class in the 80's on TWA between LAX-JFK on an L-1011, but it wasn't the same seating or legroom that came to be known as Ambassador Class.
The original version of inter-continental L1011-500 was delivered to British Airways in 1979 and the next year Pan Am put the extended wing version into service.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 61 Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5869 times:
My memory is as follows:
1. Qantas was first with biz class - first introduced on its transpacific flights.
2. TWA followed with Ambassador Class on its 741s and 1011s.
3. Pan Am then added Clipper Class.
4. BA followed by with Club Class.
Sorry, have no references, simply going by memory - when biz class was introduced in the late 1970s, is was the a very big deal with lots of press and publicity.
My timetable from March 1982 doesn't indicate anything about Ambassador Class. My first TWA flight across the Atlantic was in early 1982, and I'm digging through my old tickets to find it. My recollection is that on the L-1011's and 747's I flew they didn't have anything other than First and Economy, but I could be wrong. I'm looking to see if any of my old TWA FF info gives a date.
Dtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5799 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
3. Pan Am then added Clipper Class.
Clipper was before Ambassador, that I know for sure. Clipper originaly was nothing more then a seperate part of economy, similar to Y+. It was only a year or so later when PA and everyone else started to upgrade the product.
I have a seat map of an SP (See Boeng 747SP by Brian Baum, Great Airliers series #Three) which shows this upgraded Y type of seating.
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
Sorry, have no references, simply going by memory
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9877 posts, RR: 51 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5770 times:
Lets add a forth case:
KLM started an improved economy class service in 1975 "Triple-F" (Full Fare Facilities) for full fare economy class passengers; seperate cabin, priority luggage handling, more / better food and beverages. The seat had yellow headrests. The pitch was increases in 1979.
AeroWesty From United States, joined Oct 2004, 15634 posts, RR: 66 Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5765 times:
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9): Clipper originaly was nothing more then a seperate part of economy, similar to Y+. It was only a year or so later when PA and everyone else started to upgrade the product.
That is correct. I really wish I had an old seat map for TWA--my first time in Ambassador I remember being seated in a small cabin on grey seats (leather?), with either 2x3x2 or 2x4x2 seating on the L-1011. The second time I flew it, it was quite a grand affair.
I also recall the first time I flew a 747 with PA, the seating in coach was very tight, and saying to myself "now I know where they got the room for Clipper Class, my seat!"
Clipper was before Ambassador, that I know for sure. Clipper originaly was nothing more then a seperate part of economy, similar to Y+. It was only a year or so later when PA and everyone else started to upgrade the product.
I have a seat map of an SP (See Boeng 747SP by Brian Baum, Great Airliers series #Three) which shows this upgraded Y type of seating.
We are talking about biz class..........not full fare coach. When the use of low APEX and discount fares became widespread in the 1970s, airlines started offering seperate sections for it biz pax that paid higher fares, even AA had a full fare coach section on its domestic aircraft for a while. The use of widebody airlines made product differntiation possible and business class was born.....that is what we are talking about here.
Dtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5750 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
NICE........sometimes general knowledge is uselful. Thank you - lets see your sources for everything you happen to say or know.
The original link from PA came from me and another thread.
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12): We are talking about biz class..........not full fare coach.
We are not talking about full fare coach nor apex. PA wanted to charge more for the service, and did so. The origins of Business Class go back to this configuration at Pan Am.
AeroWesty From United States, joined Oct 2004, 15634 posts, RR: 66 Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5729 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12): The use of widebody airlines made product differntiation possible and business class was born.....that is what we are talking about here.
Right, but DTW is correct in that the very first business classes looked like Premium Economy you'd find on something like VS or BA today. A bit more legroom and a wider seat. Then the competition started, and those seats were ripped out and the real upgrading of the cabins began.
Y+ may have been a poor choice to describe it, as the first business classes were much better than say the Economy Plus section is on UA today.
Dtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5719 times:
By the way, just to add some salt to the wounds, why do most airlines use the "C" booking code for business, if it doesn't have its beginnings as "Clipper Class"?
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14): Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
The use of widebody airlines made product differntiation possible and business class was born.....that is what we are talking about here.
Right, but DTW is correct in that the very first business classes looked like Premium Economy you'd find on something like VS or BA today. A bit more legroom and a wider seat. Then the competition started, and those seats were ripped out and the real upgrading of the cabins began.
Y+ may have been a poor choice to describe it, as the first business classes were much better than say the Economy Plus section is on UA today.
Thanks Westy, I think you put it better then I did.
AeroWesty From United States, joined Oct 2004, 15634 posts, RR: 66 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5698 times:
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15): why do most airlines use the "C" booking code for business, if it doesn't have its beginnings as "Clipper Class"?
That's an interesting point! Somewhere behind the cobwebs in my mind I recall some association of that type.
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15): Thanks Westy, I think you put it better then I did.
No prob--I think as we go along we'll probably get hung up on terms, since there was that short period where the airlines were figuring out what they wanted to make out of biz class, LOL. There isn't a lot of documentation out there on this, and I'm actually tempted to hit some old National Geographics--that's where the airline ads of the era for this would probably be.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 61 Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5621 times:
Ask most travel and aviation experts world wide (not in the US), and they will answer C = Club Class.......Club is slang for biz class in many parts of the world.
Cs03 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 392 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5595 times:
As a travel agent at the time (1983) in NYC, we were all wondering how the airlines would "deal" with this new concept. I took Air France JFK/CDG on a 742 in "C" class. The seats were the same as Y, but right behind the F section. The F galley was located between the two aisles, creating a "private" cabin, (or so it seemed)! When I next took AF in 1987 CDG/JFK in C, the 742 had 2x2x2 seating in C.
AeroWesty From United States, joined Oct 2004, 15634 posts, RR: 66 Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5547 times:
Okay, after digging through my TWA FF folder, I'm going to confirm they didn't have Ambassador Class until the fall of 1982, as in the date listed in my first TWA link. My statement from April 1982 doesn't have C-class listed, but it does appear in the List of Codes post-1982.
So it brings it back to Qantas, Pan Am, or an outside chance for Ansett, unless any of those didn't have C-class prior to October 1982.
And we're talking a paid C-class, not just a separate section for full-fare Y travelers.
Luv2fly From United States, joined May 2003, 11216 posts, RR: 56 Reply 25, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5539 times:
Maybe it was New York Air that had it first!
You can cut the irony with a knife
26 AeroWesty: Ooooh, oooh, god's gonna git you now!
27 American762: Im the one who started this whole mess once again in another thread, sorry everyone. lol. Anyway, looking at www.panam.org, they state that in 1978, t
28 AeroWesty: Nothing to be sorry about, we might come up with the definitive answer yet.
29 AeroWesty: Well now this is weird date-wise: From The New York Times May 24, 1981: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...67948260&sec=travel&pagewanted=all Howe
30 AeroWesty: Okay, I found another article in the Times, this one from their PDF archives, so I had to type out an excerpt, since it's unlinkable. It appears that:
31 OneSkyJet: Here's I think what happened. Unfortunately from memory. Pan Am introduced Clipper Class in 1978 with the same Y configuration, slightly upgraded serv
32 Antares: I believe Qantas came second in 1979. It was two by four by two with pretty ordinary legroom, say 36 inches seat pitch on the main deck of the 747 cla
33 AeroWesty: Yup, for separating the classes, Pan Am did it before TWA, that's clear now. That's a great point. It brings up whether "the first business class" sh
34 Dtwclipper: So do we have a winner yet? Or is it still QF vs. PA Please don't call me that. Your exalted Grand Poobah will do nicely thank you!
35 Jetdeltamsy: I definitely remember TWA was ahead of Pan Am for Business class.
36 Dtwclipper: We settled that issue 6 posts ago with sources. PA was ahead of TW. [Edited 2006-05-21 06:59:32]
37 AeroWesty: What I'm beginning to think is that Qantas' claim is for giving the business class section different seating, and they could have been first with the
38 Andz: My wife and I flew JNB-LHR-JNB in August 1982 on SAA and they had business class in the 742. I remember this because we weren't married at the time, a
39 Antares: Andz, I remember the SAA product from the early 80s. It was called Gold Class, but it was just an ordinary economy seat at a higher price, in the seco
40 AeroWesty: I do recall something about KLM also, but it's a very hazy memory. I flew them in business in the late 80's, but what I'm thinking is that KLM may ha
41 American762: 1978 "First airline to introduce a new, separate class of service for business and full-fare economy passengers, Clipper Class" Taken from www.panam.o
42 Dtwclipper: That's what started this entire thread, see "thread starter"...thanks!
43 AeroWesty: Right, but that was still in economy class seating. Open to anyone who paid full-fare. What I'm seeing overall is that there were three "firsts": 1)
44 Antares: Aerowesty, It must have been well into the 90s when KLM dropped first class, I think about the time they jointly launched an imporved business class w
45 AeroWesty: That sounds about the right time. I was looking back in my tickets and I flew them in late '85 and spring '91 between LAX and AMS, and I believe it w
46 Dutchjet: KL had F class until atleast 1992.......thats for sure, I flew AMS-LAX in Aug 1992 in a 743 with F class. I tried to make the point earlier, but got
47 Zrs70: Back in the mid 70's, UA had three class service on its dometic flights. I believe it was called "Red, WHite, and Blue," (though never referred to as
48 BCAL: British Caledonian was the first airline to introduce the equivalent of 'business class' in Winter 1971 when a separate economy section, with enhance
49 PerthGloryFan: Well according to this website: http://www.qantas.com.au/info/about/history/details20 "1979 Qantas phases out its last 707 to become the world's only
50 B707Stu: I don't know the answer to this but I did work for AF from 4/79 - 2/81. We had "Classe Affairs" seats in the front of our 747, right behind Premiere,
51 Hotje: KLM started a scheduled weekly service to Indonesia with Fokker F12s in October 1931 with 4 seats instead of the regular 14-18 seats. This might be ca
52 Aa757first: It doesn't say. It gets as specific as "DUring the 1980s when the major three-class airlines started to fly dedicated business-class cabins...". It w
53 AeroWesty: If we look at the timeline we can make from the New York Times, Ambassador Class actually started as regular coach too, in April 1980, but all the ev
54 Ade99: It's interesting how the european airlines have adopted the business/club name for their premium short haul product and the us airlines kept first.
55 AR385: Some use "J" I have one. I remember reading somewhere, that it was SAS who first came up with a full, differentiated product (wider seats, better foo
56 Jonno: Just bought the cabin interiors book in ebay for USD 80 shipping inclusive, new. Look forward to spending many hours in my big recliner scrutinizing i
57 ClassicLover: *laughing* Anyway, a quote from http://www.thetravelinsider.info/2005/qantasskybedreview.htm "and so it goes back to the very first business class se
58 BCAL: Well if you believe 1979 was before 1971!
59 David L: I think the order's reversed south of the equator.
60 ClassicLover: It was still Economy Class We do a lot of things differently south of the equator
61 David L: We had an Australian contractor working with us who kept coming back late after lunch for the first few days. He knew the office was north of the mai
62 AeroWesty: This statement pretty much nails it for me. Thanks for all the links, ClassicLover! It looks like despite other airlines coining a phrase for the gro
63 Jonno: Rec'd the "Jetliner Cabins" yesterday. Whilst informative, even at the discount I rec'd, it's deffo not worth USD 60. It's more like a cut-out book yo
64 GeorgiaAME: I used to fly a rudimentary Business Class with KLM in 1974. We were seated in the up front Y cabin of the 747 (3-4-2 seating in those day), got free
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Oct 2004, 15634 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, 
From France, joined Mar 2005, 1383 posts, 
From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 907 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
