A320ajm From United Kingdom (England), joined May 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9577 times:
Hi
I have been trying to work out this question for ages:
If a civil aircraft (e.g. Airbus A300) ditches in the water, and it stays afloat, do passengers go straight into the water down the slide, then ditcah the slide for a raft, or do they detach the slide first, then go into the water?
If the answer is they go into the water first - how can they possibly detach the slide?
If the answer is they detach the slide first, how do they get into it? (A long way to jump into the water if you have injured passengers!!)
Thanks
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
Joffie From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 512 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9567 times:
If an A300 ditches in the water, the engines will take up the water, and in effect the plane would break up similar to the Ethiopian flight back in 1994.
I don't even know why airline's safety cards bother with the images of the plane staying afloat if it ditches in water, as we all know, wont.
Planes like the MD series that have the engines on the back have a better chance, as the fuselage would perhaps skim the water.
A320ajm From United Kingdom (England), joined May 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9564 times:
OK, then , bad example, say for a MD-80, which has engines on the tail section.
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
A320ajm From United Kingdom (England), joined May 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9552 times:
Good point Andz,
Many aircraft that fly long over sea trips have engines on the wings that would probably be ripped off!
Examples
A330
777
747
A380 (God forbid that that ever has to ditch!!)
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
Lehovec From Slovenia, joined Apr 2005, 250 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9522 times:
Evacuation in case of ditching in my company is:
open the doors and wait for slides to inflate then detach them from the door (quite simple procedure) and use them as a raft.
You can't use slide for evacuating from the a/c as they are going to be very shallow and you would have to walk on the slide and in this case it would be possible to evacuate 1 pax per sec.
Itrndoes sound quite easy but after an impact I don't think it would be asrneasy as it appears in both manual and on safety card where people lookrnlike they are on holiday, laying on the slides that are floating aroundrnthe a/c.
A320ajm From United Kingdom (England), joined May 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9516 times:
777 fan,
An MD80 has a chance to skim across the water, thus slowing it down due to friction. If a skilled pilot slowed the aircraft like this, then they may get to a speed where the airframe would not break up. The Ethiopian pilot had a good idea what he was doing, he skimmed and if it had not been for his engines, he may not have flipped and then broke up. His skill saved some lives. Also, wasn't there a crash where an aircraft took off but ice in his wings brought him down into a river. The aircraft held together pretty well and many passengers and crew survived.
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
Dogfighter2111 From United Kingdom (Scotland), joined Nov 2004, 1952 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9493 times:
Heya,
ANY aircraft has a chance to land safely on water. If an A330 or B767 were to get into trouble over the Atlantic and there was no other option than to ditch, it could land on the water and very easily not break up. It actually depends on the angle that the pilots lands the aircraft.
If you landed the aircraft on the surface of the water at a steep angle so as the back of the engines hit the surface first, then they should either fly off over the top fo the wing, stay intact whilst the aircraft skims along or rip off under the wing after the whole aircraft has touched down in the water and the aircraft is still doing some speed.
MarkHKG From United States, joined Dec 2005, 832 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9493 times:
Quoting Joffie (Reply 1): Ethiopian flight back in 1994
That's actually an extremely poor example. Moments before the plane contacted the water, the hijackers started assaulting the flight crew, preventing them from making an "ideal" ditching. Planes contacting water may also occur during take-off or runway overruns, and the plane's structure may survive. This has occured numerous times, and yes, life-rafts and life-vests were used.
Quoting A320ajm (Thread starter): If a civil aircraft (e.g. Airbus A300) ditches in the water, and it stays afloat, do passengers go straight into the water down the slide, then ditcah the slide for a raft, or do they detach the slide first, then go into the water?
If the answer is they go into the water first - how can they possibly detach the slide?
This really depends if the aircraft is equipped with a standard evacuation slide, or an actual slide/raft.
An "evacution slide only" type device is considered a flotation device....it cannot hold many people on it. You can tell that it is an evacuation-only slide when the slide does not have things that stick out of its side (inflateable posts). Usually, if the aircraft has this type of slide, the cabin crew will open the exit, inflate the slide, and immediately detach the slide using the detachment handle. They will then command the passengers to "Inflate your vests and jump into the water". After all passengers evacuate, the crew member will evacuate themselves, and cut the mooring line.The slide is then flipped over so that the injured, young or the elderly can be placed in it.
A slide/raft has inflateable posts which allow the canopy to be attached to it, and can be wider than a standard evacuation slide; certain slide/rafts have a "side compartment" underneath part of its canopy which people will also climb into (as seen on some B767 and DC-10 aircraft). With a slide/raft, passengers will board the raft before the crew member detaches the slide. After all passengers have evacuated, crew members will board the slide themselves, and then use the slide/raft detach function, bearing in mind that the slide can drop several feet before it contacts the water. The crew member then disconnects or cuts the mooring line, and directs passengers to erect the canopy and activates the emergency locator transmitter.
Both types of examples highlight why cabin crew are so important: they know how to work the emergency equipment for the many different types of emergencies!
777fan From United States, joined Jan 2006, 1847 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9481 times:
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 7): 777 fan,
An MD80 has a chance to skim across the water, thus slowing it down due to friction. If a skilled pilot slowed the aircraft like this, then they may get to a speed where the airframe would not break up. The Ethiopian pilot had a good idea what he was doing, he skimmed and if it had not been for his engines, he may not have flipped and then broke up. His skill saved some lives. Also, wasn't there a crash where an aircraft took off but ice in his wings brought him down into a river. The aircraft held together pretty well and many passengers and crew survived.
You're probably right but let's hope it never comes to that! I'd rather face an emergency on land - at least you don't have to deal with a sinking aircraft. BTW, how realistic is it that an MD-8X is going to land in the middle of a body of water?! Is there an ETOPS MD-8X out there? I would assume that most pilots would still opt for a highway, field, etc. vice trying to skim the bird on a lake, sea, ocean, river, etc.
777fan
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" - Edmund Burke
2 May 1970; ALM DC9-33CF; near St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands: The aircraft had departed JFK airport in New York for St. Maarten in the Netherlands Antilles. After three missed approaches, the crew diverted to St. Croix. While en route, the aircraft ran out of fuel and the crew ditched the aircraft. While the flight crew made specific preparations for ditching, the imminent ditching was not communicated to the cabin crew. As a result, several occupants were not belted in at the time of the ditching. The aircraft remained afloat for five to six minutes before sinking in waters about one mile (1600 meters) deep. One of the six crew members and 22 of the 57 passengers were killed. The accident was investigated by the NTSB and the details are available in NTSB report NTSB-AAR-71-8 dated 31 March 1971.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 27754 posts, RR: 61 Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9350 times:
The Slide is the Raft on Over water Flights.The Slide is detached by a lanyard to release from the Aircraft.The Last person on board would need to release it.The Slide/Raft has a Knife for use too.Remember on water the level of the slide & Door will be not very different.
regds
MEL
FlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2165 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9266 times:
They vary across aircraft types, for example on our A320 procedure would be to detatch the slide (once inflated) but still keep it connected with the mooring line, and instruct passengers "Inflate lifejacket, Jump and swim". But on the 757 we would keep the slide attatched and shout "Inflate LJ, Crawl and sit".
Also the Airbus A320 slides are just slides, so passengers will not be allowed to get on them but cling onto the straps along the sides.
To make things even more complicated we have two types of slides on the 757, slide rafts and normal slides. We won't (and hopefully never) know whats what until we use them (as it would just confuse crewmembers with unessecarry info during normal ops).
We also have liferafts (but hey guess what, they come in two types), these are to be collected and used after everyone is off the plane. They are only carried on ETOPS 757 flights (the 767 has them anyway), although MX may put them on a few days before a flight (and will tell us in advance).
Quoting 777fan (Reply 11): BTW, how realistic is it that an MD-8X is going to land in the middle of a body of water?! Is there an ETOPS MD-8X out there?
Thats a good point, but the same can apply to non transat routed aircraft like the 737, A32X or 757. There are airports out there like IBZ, CFU, JTR, JSI and Funchal which have sea or ocean within feet of the runway threshold or in PMI or RHO cases just a few miles ahead, so if an aircraft overruns or can't climb (for whatever reason) and starts sinking it too will end up in the water. But at least there you could inflate the slides and then head them the 500ft to the shore line
Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 10): Both types of examples highlight why cabin crew are so important: they know how to work the emergency equipment for the many different types of emergencies!
Well yeah, we are not just pretty faces you know Kidding, but seriously we are tested even before each flight in the form of a briefing just to ensure we know some emergency stuff picked at random.
Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
Aa757first From United States, joined Aug 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 12 Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9263 times:
Quoting A320ajm (Thread starter): I have been trying to work out this question for ages:
If a civil aircraft (e.g. Airbus A300) ditches in the water, and it staysafloat, do passengers go straight into the water down the slide, then ditcah the slide for a raft, or do they detach the slide first, then go into the water?
If the answer is they go into the water first - how can they possibly detach the slide?
If the answer is they detach the slide first, how do they get into it? (A long way to jump into the water if you have injuredrnpassengers!!)
Passengers walk onto the raft as (theoretically) the rafts are floating. The rafts/emergency slides are then detached. The Boeing 767 does have an auxillary raft that is thrown into the water and must be swam to.
MarkHKG From United States, joined Dec 2005, 832 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9259 times:
Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 14): But at least there you could inflate the slides and then head them the 500ft to the shore line
Wow...talk about being proactive. All I would want to be do is sit in the slide/raft, relax, get a tan and wait for the firefighters to earn their paycheck by rescuing us.
JetBlue flight attendant training on A320 slide/raft boarding. As you can see, the A320 slide/rafts are bigger than the standard evacuation slide fitted on non-overwater flights, and have the inflateable posts.
FlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2165 posts, RR: 15 Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9241 times:
Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 16): firefighters to earn their paycheck by rescuing us.
Some far off european island airports, only have 1 firetruck and it serves the whole island too.
I think I might just grab my camera and take pictures for anet instead, surley they would get accepted
Actually in a preplanned ditching we may have time to cram our pockets full of miniature whiskey and well you know the rest ......
Phil
FlyingColours
[Edited 2006-05-21 14:05:43]
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
GCDEG From Greece, joined Jan 2006, 352 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9229 times:
With my company operating the Boeing 737 the primary evacuation routes are the overwing exits. In the event of a ditching we direct passengers to grab their lifejackets and move to the overwing exits. If safe to do so we will also open the main doors and inflate (and if necessary detach) the slides. These can be used as a floatation device. We will also evacuate this way too if safe to do so. Most aircraft are tail heavy so it might not be possible to inflate the slides and evacuate using the rear doors. As mentioned above the slide can be detached from the door. On the 737 there is a flap covering the detachment handle and when the handle is pulled twice it will release the slide from the girt bar. Then to detach the slide you unfasten the Velcro on the mooring line.
Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 10): Both types of examples highlight why cabin crew are so important: they know how to work the emergency equipment for the many different types of emergencies!
FlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2165 posts, RR: 15 Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9190 times:
Yeah I remember Islandsflug gave us some weird training on the 737-400 (conversion) which was in a pre-med ditching to detatch the two aft slides, and take them to the overwing exit (the R4 and the R1 crewmember) would then sit with their slides at an overwing exit, then when the time came open the hatch climb out onto the wing and then inflate the slide and yell for people to "follow me".....
Excel never told us to do that though they just said you might be able to use the L1/R1 but disarm the door first, the aft doors will probably be semi underwater so direct passengers to the overwings.
Nick, do your saftey cards have a big "X" on the aft exits for the ditching picture? (not that many read them, much less remember them if the time comes )
Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
GCDEG From Greece, joined Jan 2006, 352 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9154 times:
Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21): Yeah I remember Islandsflug gave us some weird training on the 737-400 (conversion) which was in a pre-med ditching to detatch the two aft slides, and take them to the overwing exit (the R4 and the R1 crewmember) would then sit with their slides at an overwing exit, then when the time came open the hatch climb out onto the wing and then inflate the slide and yell for people to "follow me".....
Wow! That is weird? I'll need to ask and see if anyone who flew with Islandflug went through this too.
Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21): Nick, do your safety cards have a big "X" on the aft exits for the ditching picture?
No Phil they don't. They only show Exit B (ie - overwing exits) to be used in an evacuation on water with arrows pointing for passengers to move to the overwings. The front and rear doors are not shown as being used at all.
Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21): (not that many read them, much less remember them if the time comes )
I know!
Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 18): Actually in a preplanned ditching we may have time to cram our pockets full of miniature whiskey and well you know the rest
We always joke about that too. Just take as much from the bar as possible!
MarkHKG From United States, joined Dec 2005, 832 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9154 times:
Just for attaching photos: both of the below are two different types of combo slide/rafts. These slide/rafts are only detached from the aircraft once people have boarded them. You can see the canopy on the B767 slide/raft (left), and the inflateable posts on the A330 slide/raft (right) which will have the cabin crew direct pax to manually install the canopy on top of these posts once the slide/raft is detached from the aircraft.
And for comparison is the B737 slide, which can only be used as a flotation device. In a ditching, these slides are immediately detached once they are inflated to prevent interfering with passenger egress. If these aircraft engage in extended overwater operations, they will probably need to be installed with life-rafts.
ShowerOfSparks From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9145 times:
Quoting Joffie (Reply 1): If an A300 ditches in the water, the engines will take up the water, and in effect the plane would break up similar to the Ethiopian flight back in 1994.
I don't even know why airline's safety cards bother with the images of the plane staying afloat if it ditches in water, as we all know, wont.
Planes like the MD series that have the engines on the back have a better chance, as the fuselage would perhaps skim the water.
You make me embarrassed to be an expatriot Australian. When the Ethiopian aircraft hit the water there was a fight going on in the cockpit, that wasn't a ditching it was a crash. In a controlled ditching the engines will break off on contact with the water. Don't believe me? Consider how easily the A300 operating AA587 shed it's engines while still in flight. I suggest you google "fuse pins" and educate yourself. You might also like to search for pictures of the 707 that ditched on approach to an airport somewhere in Africa.
MarkHKG From United States, joined Dec 2005, 832 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9137 times:
Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21): Nick, do your saftey cards have a big "X" on the aft exits for the ditching picture? (not that many read them, much less remember them if the time comes
I've seen quite a few different carriers which have the X on the aft exits on the B737...something about the plane assuming a slightly nose up attitude after a ditching, submerging those exits....
Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21): Yeah I remember Islandsflug gave us some weird training on the 737-400 (conversion) which was in a pre-med ditching to detatch the two aft slides
Some carriers in the US (actually, for some reason, I thought this was an FAA regulation) teach how to detach the slide package to transfer it to another door. The procedure can be exceedingly complicated on certain aircraft...like the need to disconnect hoses, etc. I think the time would be better spent making sure passengers didn't inflate their lifejackets before they exited the aircraft...and reminding them how to adopt the brace position.
Release your seat-belt and get out!
26 B707Stu: I remember in the late 60's a JL DC-8 ditched on arrival at SFO. I believe it was pilot error and he just landed short. The plane floated because it w
27 FlyingColours: Thats an MD80 I guess the slides are similar though, that one is quite small actually. Here is a photo of a 737 slide, although its been detatched
28 Christeljs: Any aircraft with engines under its wings is pretty much doomed, unfortunately.
29 MarkHKG: Darnnit! It's interesting because some carriers on their safety cards recommend passengers to hold on to each other to form a ring, while others have
30 MarkHKG: Really? I know that is constantly quoted, but does anyone have anything scientific to back that up?
31 FlyingColours: True, I can't tell you know what my companies card recommends (as we are not allowed to take any) but Islandsflug (734) want passengers to scatter ar
32 Midnights: The main reason for the slide/raft and passenger lifevests are to mark the crash site......God help anyone who ditches in a large body of water in any
33 FlyingColours: I'm not sure where you are going with that, but.... Slides will still have mooring line (although the crew will cut it from the aircraft - we aim for
34 Christeljs: I'm talking about water as in deep water. That 737 in the picture is not out on deep water and therefore it did not sink. It also loooks like it didn
35 AR385: Not true, the Ethiopian plane was out of control, with one wing dipped, came in too fast and a terrible rate of descent. Besides, the hijackers were
36 FlyMIA: I think your thinking of Air Florida Flight 90? The plane crashed on takeoff from DCA. The 737 crashed into a bridge which ran over the Patomic river
37 Litz: Ok, to clear some facts on ditchings ... let's look at a few ... 1) 2 May 1970; ALM DC9-33CF; near St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands This plane successfu
38 Lufthansi: During my job training at the LH base in HAM I learned that the slides will automatically dteach from the jet if the jet sinks down. The air in the sl
39 AR385: In addition, it is presumed because of its rapid sinking, that the fuselage under water was breached (imagine the Titanic)
40 Lufthansi: Ok. This is what my manuals say: The emergence equipment of airplanes and helicopters is described in FAR 23,25,27 and 29, � 1411 to 1415. If the
41 777fan: Note that that a/c came to rest in a shallow river bed - we don't know if it would have sunk because the water wasn't deep enough. As has been mentio
42 WesternA318: Wasnt there a DC-10 in BOS that over ran the runway?
43 GBOAD: Gentlemen, The design of any slide/raft is governed by a FAA Technical Standard Order, TSO-C69c. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...416c286256dc10
44 Spark: Personally I think airlines give the raft information because they don't want to say "In the unlikely event of a water landing;- - - - - We die." BTW,
45 MarkHKG: I think you do need to detach the slide first...then you get the mooring line...which will then break after the plane goes down, although most carrie
46 UA772IAD: Are you referring to Air Florida 90? That crashed on take-off from Washington National- DCA, in the winter of 1982. One crew member, a FA in the back
47 EWRCabincrew: May depend on the airline. We have no auxiliary rafts on our 767s. At CO, our 767-200s have 4 dual lane slide rafts, one at each door and our 767-400
48 MarkHKG: For the case of Air Florida Flight 90... Let me also point out that only 1 life-vest was used...it was found by a flight attendant, who gave it to an
49 MarkHKG: Cool, thanks. They are almost never shown on safety cards!
50 EWRCabincrew: I just checked our safety information cards. The exact location in the window is not shown, but if you look closely they are shown attached to the win
51 TommyBP251b: Do you mean Air Florida from Washington Reagan National to MIA? Just 3 or 4 survived.
52 American762: I was under the impression that most airliners were designed, if ditched correctly, to float for several minutes on the water, considering calm seas.
53 Seanp11: An airplane is a airfilled container, with the wings that are either filled with air or Jet-A, which is lighter than water. I would put my money on i
54 FLY2HMO: Precisely. there's plenty of pictures of succesfully ditched planes that are pretty much intact. I'm too lazy to search for them though, but I've see
55 Supa7E7: Ditching may work well every time, but the case for their use almost never happens. If you have no engines, you usually have other problems too. Maybe
56 ShowerOfSparks: I seem to recall also a 727 which landed short in Pensacola I think it was. The aircraft was recovered and eventually returned to service if I rememb
57 C133: No time to read every word in all posts so apologies if this has been mentioned above. All airplanes with wing mounted underslung engines are designe
58 Alaskaqantas: hello- A question: what if you are sitting on the upper deck of a 747... or even now an A380!?!? Or what if you are a flight Attendant and you are sle
59 MarkHKG: Passengers on a 747 must go down to the main deck to one of the slide/rafts (all doors except 3L and 3R). If they cannot, the absolute last resort is
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Kidding, but seriously we are tested even before each flight in the form of a briefing just to ensure we know some emergency stuff picked at random.
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