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Boeing Set To Lead Airbus For 6-8 Years  
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10910 times:

According to Oxford Analytica, "Airbus is at risk of losing most of the 200-500 seat market."

Quote:
A decision to abandon the current A350 and create a new family would restore Airbus' market position in the long run. However, it would have painful consequences for the next six-eight years:

-- Credibility issues: Airbus would be forced to admit that it launched a plane and made performance promises to customers well before the design was finalized. It would also tell the financial community that none of the booked orders were truly firm.

-- Short-term sales losses: Current A350 customers might defect to the 787, and short-term sales prospects fall to Boeing.

-- If Airbus must spend heavily on a new wide-body design, it will have a difficult time finding resources for a new narrow-body.

Airbus has little choice but to announce a full redesign of its forthcoming A350 aircraft in order to compete with the 787. This will lead to increased outlays, diminished strategic options for EADS, and medium-term damage to Airbus's wide-body market position. Boeing looks set to steal a march on its rival over the next six-eight years.

Oxford Analytica is an independent strategic-consulting firm.
http://www.forbes.com/business/2006/...-airbus-profit-cx_0518oxford.html#

110 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12339 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10898 times:
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I personally think that the A350 customers will be asking some serious questions about if they can wait for the all new A350 (A370) or go with the B787 in till they can get the new A350 or order new A330s intill they can receive their delayed A350s

User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10863 times:

"Even with the A380 burden, Airbus unquestionably sees the wisdom of funding a new wide-body family. Yet its parent company, the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS), has its own concerns and constraints. Airbus has historically provided most of EADS's profits. However, there is no guarantee that Airbus still enjoys the political clout needed to dictate EADS's spending decisions. EADS is also focused on other issues.

Given the size of the market at stake, Airbus has little choice but to announce a full redesign of its forthcoming A350 aircraft in order to compete with the 787. This will lead to increased outlays, diminished strategic options for EADS, and medium-term damage to Airbus's wide-body market position. Boeing looks set to steal a march on its rival over the next six-eight years."


Interesting concept: EADS v. Airbus?


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10850 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 1):
or order new A330s intill they can receive their delayed A350s

Tha sounds like a good option, but the problem could be the residual value for the A330s that would be made quickly obsolete after the A350 introduction.


User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10813 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
Tha sounds like a good option, but the problem could be the residual value for the A330s that would be made quickly obsolete after the A350 introduction.

Simple not true. The A330-200 made the B767-300ER obsolete - still many were ordered after the A332 was launched, many are still flying, and there are still carriers which launch with this aircraft.



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineSaturn5 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10763 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
-- If Airbus must spend heavily on a new wide-body design, it will have a difficult time finding resources for a new narrow-body.

They probably mean human resources because I don't think they will have any financial difficulties - they will go and get another one of those "repay-only-if-you-want" type of a loan.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10581 times:

If I remember the press were drawing the same conclusion when only Boeing wanted the Sonic Cruiser.

On the A380 comments, my compliments to Randy for learning the press we have to compare 450 seat 748s vs 550 seat A380s per seat economics.

About the 777 vs 340 legend: everybody avoids to notice that even Boeing spells the end of the 772 & no 777 has been sold this year, A340s have..

"Short-term sales losses: Current A350 customers might defect to the 787, and short-term sales prospects fall to Boeing."
First slots in 2011/2012 .. is 5-6 years short term sales prospects?

Of course JAL, Qantas & NWA are blue chip carriers but what about the fact that Boeing reinvented itself in terms of prices & financial conditions. Or the fact that few of the international blue chip carriers ordered the 787.

Picking out some highlights & ignoring others can create perceptions, repeating them endlessly believes.

I have the feeling after Farnborough people might have a different view.


User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10508 times:

Oh, it Keesje, you know better than this...

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
About the 777 vs 340 legend: everybody avoids to notice that even Boeing spells the end of the 772 & no 777 has been sold this year, A340s have..

If you were offering a product, and another manufacturer the competitor came up with a direct competitor, what would you have done? Nothing? When it comes to sales so far this year for the A340/777, wait until the end of the year, things may have changed dramatically... No need to be grumpy over what happened with the A340 last year Keesje...

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
Of course JAL, Qantas & NWA are blue chip carriers but what about the fact that Boeing reinvented itself in terms of prices & financial conditions. Or the fact that few of the international blue chip carriers ordered the 787.

And Airbus doesn't sell their airliners at low prices with special financial conditions to its possible customers? Of course they do, and you know it. Qantas was lost due to the better performance of the 787, the price was about the same, and as we know, the listprice for the A350 is higher. You can do the math... Get over it Keesje, and start realizing that Boeing did their homework right this time with the 787, Airbus didn't.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10497 times:

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 5):
they will go and get another one of those "repay-only-if-you-want" type of a loan.

Repeating it again and again doesnt necessarily make it true.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10472 times:

Quoting Brendows (Reply 7):
And Airbus doesn't sell their airliners at low prices with special financial conditions to its possible customers? Of course they do, and you know it. Qantas was lost due to the better performance of the 787, the price was about the same, and as we know, the listprice for the A350 is higher. You can do the math... Get over it Keesje, and start realizing that Boeing did their homework right this time with the 787, Airbus didn't.

The QF order has really stuck in his craw. Interestingly, some say it was the results of the A350/787 competition at QF that turned Mr. Udvar-Hazy against the "old all-new" because the battlefield between the OEMs was level.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10468 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 2):
"Even with the A380 burden, Airbus unquestionably sees the wisdom of funding a new wide-body family. Yet its parent company, the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS), has its own concerns and constraints. Airbus has historically provided most of EADS's profits. However, there is no guarantee that Airbus still enjoys the political clout needed to dictate EADS's spending decisions. EADS is also focused on other issues.

Given the size of the market at stake, Airbus has little choice but to announce a full redesign of its forthcoming A350 aircraft in order to compete with the 787. This will lead to increased outlays, diminished strategic options for EADS, and medium-term damage to Airbus's wide-body market position. Boeing looks set to steal a march on its rival over the next six-eight years."

Interesting concept: EADS v. Airbus?

Airbus is the best thing EADS has, the rest (space, defense etc.) is rather tiny compared to that. Therefore I don't expect EADS to restrict money that Airbus would need to be competitive.

The title of this thread is very misleading. Boeing my lead the market between 200 and 500 seats for a while, but Airbus still has enough backlog on its A330/340 line. If they renew the A350, then they might have to keep that lin busy until 2012, meaning lower price sales, but also eating into the 777s sales.


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10394 times:

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 5):
they will go and get another one of those "repay-only-if-you-want" type of a loan.

Am I the only one to be fed up with this ridiculous argument used all the time ?


User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10183 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
According to Oxford Analytica, "Airbus is at risk of losing most of the 200-500 seat market."

More of the same. One day I'll read something new, enlightened, and refreshing. One day.

Airways45


User currently offlineParapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1664 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10160 times:

It seems that Airbus is choosing to fight in the 787-10,777-200,and above,sectors of the market with their new proposed aircraft.

Perhaps they will go for a simple re-engine of the A330 as they origonally proposed and make as many sales as they can against the 787-8,9 by discounting?


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10135 times:

Quoting Parapente (Reply 13):
It seems that Airbus is choosing to fight in the 787-10,777-200,and above,sectors of the market with their new proposed aircraft.

Stretched versions might also take on the 773 and the 747-8. And the shortest one would be around the size of the 789.

Quoting Parapente (Reply 13):
Perhaps they will go for a simple re-engine of the A330 as they origonally proposed and make as many sales as they can against the 787-8,9 by discounting?

Perhaps an A332 with new engines and some new technology can compete with the 788. It isn't always the better plane who wins, sometimes price, delivery date, and other issues are the deciding factor.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10097 times:

Quoting Parapente (Reply 13):
It seems that Airbus is choosing to fight in the 787-10,777-200,and above,sectors

Thing is, Parapente, your mention of 'above' makes it two distinct sectors, not one.

My original take on Airbus' decision was that they had decided to give the 787 best and concentrate on a '9-across twin' in the up-to-350-seat sector to compete with the 787-10 and the larger-capacity 777s (an 'A370'). In my view that would be the right decision. But subsequent discussions have suggested that they are still thinking of somehow producing a competitor for the 787 (yet another 'A350') in time for it to make some difference.

Given their big financial commitments to finalising and producing the A380, continuing with the A400, and buying out BAE when they exercise their put option in a week or so, Airbus MAY be able to fund making a start on ONE new design in 2006/7. But my guess is that there is no way they can go full steam ahead on TWO new designs, on top of their other commitments, without giving themselves a cash flow problem.

I reckon that that is very possibly what the evident Forgeard/Humbert split is about. One wants to produce two designs, the other only one. Interestingly, I can't make up my mind which of the two protagonists supports which strategy; though my current guess is that Humbert (who keeps talking about 'profitability') favours the 'A370' option.

[Edited 2006-05-23 14:42:35]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10083 times:

Quoting Parapente (Reply 13):
It seems that Airbus is choosing to fight in the 787-10,777-200,and above,sectors of the market with their new proposed aircraft.

The only problem I have with this... is that the larger twins do not need replacement for many airlines. 777 is a modern aircraft w/ great economics. I would pool the A332/3 in there as well.

What needs to be replaced are the old 767's, and A300/10... oh and what can be debated is the A342/3, as well.

Airbus continues to not have an answer for airlines replacing medium sized twins. The A358 just does not cut it....

Cheers,



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31417 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10017 times:
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The 787 family appears to be more...flexable...then either the A350MkIV or A350MkV family. It offers a replacement option for B753, B763, B764, B772, A306, A310, A332, A333, A342 and A343 operators.

The A350MkIV seems aimed at the B764, A333, A343, and B772 markets.

The A350MkV seems aimed at the B764, B772, A333, A343, A346, and B773 markets.

As BoeingBus has noted, the A346 and B773 markets are young. By the time the -1000 model enters service in 2014, it is unlikely many A346 and B773 operators will be actively looking to replace their planes - even SQ's will be below the ten-year "retirement ceiling". And during the next eight years, operators will be acquiring new A346s and B773s, filling many of the potential orders the -1000 model could use.

The two B764 operators will choose the 787 (one of them already having done so).

So that leaves the A333, A343, and B772 markets. They're not small, to be sure, but the 787 is already selling into them now and will continue to do so for years before Airbus can EIS their replacement.

Of course, it is easy for us to "arm-chair" these decisions, not only for the manufacturers, but the airlines. But Boeing does seem to have a better hand, even if they hold no "trump cards".


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10006 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 4):
Simple not true. The A330-200 made the B767-300ER obsolete - still many were ordered after the A332 was launched, many are still flying, and there are still carriers which launch with this aircraft.

Good point. I think the problem with the A330 where Airbus is concerned is that its life-cycle (read revenue generation) have been cut short. Until the 787 came along, Airbus probably expected strong A330 revenues for some years to come. It is, after all, a relatively young model. By switching to the A350 (whatever iteration you want to compare), they've essentially stepped over the A330.

This is one reason Boeing is probably sweating a little over the A350MkV: it poses the potential problem of rendering obsolete the 777 and thereby cutting short its revenue generating life-cycle.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9974 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 16):
The only problem I have with this... is that the larger twins do not need replacement for many airlines. 777 is a modern aircraft w/ great economics. I would pool the A332/3 in there as well.

What needs to be replaced are the old 767's, and A300/10... oh and what can be debated is the A342/3, as well.

Makes sense. Many 757s, 762, 310's, seems a pretty large replacement market to me. I have the feeling the future for <240 seats is single aisle. The cost levels are so much lower..


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 11):
Am I the only one to be fed up with this ridiculous argument used all the time ?

No you are not the only one. The following should be made compulsory reading.
House of Commons Trade and Industry Committee The UK Aerospace Industry
Fifteenth Report of Session 2004-05 Report, together with formal minutes Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 22 March 2005 GBP12.00

The UK now call it repayable launch investment. Other House of Commons papers show why the UK Treasury (and I assume the French and German equivalents) are only too keen to help. The Royalties are rolling in from the A32x program (known) and the A330/340 program (inferred from the small amount outstanding in 1999).

Is it possible to come up with similar references from France and Germany? It would be nice to try and slow those references down with a mass of facts. Investing in RLI begins to look better than buying bonds, you get full repayment with interest and then an override for the full life of the program.


User currently offlineSparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 674 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
About the 777 vs 340 legend: everybody avoids to notice that even Boeing spells the end of the 772 & no 777 has been sold this year, A340s have..

No A380s have been sold either, have they? Does this mean the A380 will suffer the same fate as you imply the 777 will?

SparkingWave ~~~



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

Quote:
-- Boeing 747 update: Boeing has launched an updated 747, the -8. While it seats 450 passengers and will not compete directly with the A380, the 747-8's fuel efficiency could rule out the use of an A380 on routes that do not utilize its full 550 seats. This means Airbus is at risk of losing most of the 200-500 seat market.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9508 times:

Interesting speculation by a consulting firm. However, no one can really predict what airline is going to order which airplane 6 years from now, especially when we dont know the specs yet on either the A-350-v5 or the 787-10 yet. Except for the recently announced "we'll stick with the A-350 even though we dont what airplane we have actually ordered yet" crowd......

Certainly a one of a kind order in the history of aviation if there ever was one.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9405 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 22):
While it seats 450 passengers and will not compete directly with the A380, the 747-8's fuel efficiency could rule out the use of an A380 on routes that do not utilize its full 550 seats.

Allow me to do the same, and if you dont I will anyway. The 773 (350 seats) could rule out the use of an 748 (450 seats) on routes that do not utilize its full 450 seats. The 250 seater 788 could rule out the use of the 773 on routes that do not utilize its full 350 seats. You've got be Singapore Airlines (abusing the 777) or have deep pockets to fly airliners on routes that do not require the capacity that the airliner has.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 16):

Airbus continues to not have an answer for airlines replacing medium sized twins. The A358 just does not cut it....

We really dont know at the moment. Untill their plans are known, and not via industry 'experts', but from Airbus themselfes.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
25 RJ777 : And Boeing is doing it single-handedly with just one Aircraft! Way to go Boeing!
26 AndesSMF : The sonic cruiser was cancelled after lack of interest. Bad choice of timing for a comparison, you take a look at long range, and the results arent g
27 FlyingHippo : Well, until Airbus decides what the A350 will look like and freezes the design, it will be hard to predict how they well do against Boeing. However, i
28 FlyinTLow : No, most definitely not. And I find it beyond amusing to see some grown-up men (and women possibly, don't want to offend anyone here) throw fits like
29 Slz396 : The title reflects the most vivid wish of the thread starter, hence his slanted interpretation of what the article says. Since it is a given fact peo
30 OldAeroGuy : Why does the quote you made from the article being discussed invalidate the title of this thread? The A350/370 won't be online until 2012 at the earl
31 DeltaDC9 : And leaving the lower end to Boeing exclusevly. Cutting short? The 777 has already sold more planes than any Airbus widebody model. The 777 will hit
32 Slz396 : Did I say I wanted to invalidate the title of this thread?
33 BoeingBus : OK, lets not forget that the larger the plane, the less market there is for it. So why does Airbus continue to go after the smaller piece of the plan
34 Slz396 : More efficient than what? Than smaller 787 versions? I'd hope so; this is a given fact for most planes. However, are you still so sure a double stret
35 Post contains links BoomBoom : Once again you choose to shoot the messenger, how sad you are. The title was taken directly from the article. The very last line reads: Boeing looks
36 EbbUK : Just like wasting money I guess. Clueless manufacturer Really whether or not the data shows the a350 will be a better plane?
37 DeltaDC9 : A-380, 772, A-340, A-330, 767, A-300, and until we know better the A-350 You have zero evidence to back up that claim.
38 BoeingBus : No, it's clueless management at the helm. I'm sorry you dont see that. Likewise for you - Airbus can do no wrong in your book.
39 Slz396 : Out of personal interest, and I have to admit also because you call me 'a sad' figure (for which I should in fact ask for disciplinary steps as it is
40 Post contains images Glideslope : Unfortunately for Airbus, "Feelings" do not fill the Order Book.
41 PlevTLS : Orderbooks Order books look pretty full from where I am?!
42 EbbUK : Oh they will, what the airlines are feeling is key, They like what the A350 will become, which will fill up the order book. So save your wisdom on Ai
43 Post contains links and images Halibut : I am curious to see how this will effect this years Farnborough Air Show ? Boeing 2 Top Airbus Sales @ Farnborough Air Show? (by Halibut May 23 2006
44 RedFlyer : While that's possible and even probable, what was Boeing's expectations with regards to total number of projected unit sales? (Keep in mind those pro
45 WAH64D : Well well, isn't that great news for Boeing. When will this 6-8 years begin? Will it be when Boeing can produce a worthy competitor to the A320? Maybe
46 Post contains images Stitch : Is this true? I know EK has decided against taking more A346s (in favor of additional A380 frames), but I don't recall any other cancellations of A34
47 DeltaDC9 : That is the only thing in your post I doubt, some will jump, most will not. Y3's design parameters and timing are now being determined partly by Airb
48 Post contains images Stitch : I like to believe that Boeing engineers do not think "ramp rash" is something that happens to baggage handlers when they wear cotton instead of wool
49 RichardPrice : While I dont think anyone thinks that, GLARE and CFRP are two very different things. GLARE is GLAss REinforced Fibre Metal laminate - layers of metal
50 Stitch : I'm not a materials engineer (and my next statement will make that obvious in either a good way or a bad one), but I've read that one of the advantag
51 ODwyerPW : nobody is leading anybody for 6-8 years. give me a break. let's just stop all intelligent debates on this site and dress up two apes in suits and thro
52 OldAeroGuy : Based on your first quote in this reply, it sure seems that you think the thread title did not reflect the conclusions of the article. How else do yo
53 Post contains links Brendows : First, remember that there are more than one Al-Li alloy, and that the characteristics of the different alloys can vary pretty much. I haven't seen a
54 WAH64D : Stitch, A quality post as always. I'm under no illusion that Boeing will have checked, re-checked and checked again, all of the forseeable situations
55 RedFlyer : Not surprising since there are more 737's flying than Airbus' entire product line.
56 Par13del : Only factual thing I got from the whole article is in the widebody market, Airbus backlog value fell below Boeing's in 1st Qtr 2006 for the first time
57 WAH64D : Are there 5 times as many flying? I don't think so! Roughly 5000 B737s have been delivered, compared to approximately 4150 Airbus' of all variants.
58 Brendows : Not only that, but most of the 737s have been flying much longer (in time) than any Airbus. You can't use the statistics in this way. Also, most acci
59 OldAeroGuy : Why do people resort to this sort of uninformed cheap shot? The answer is probably because they are uninformed. The accident rate based on flight hou
60 RedFlyer : No, but the 737 has been flying for a lot longer than Airbus' product line. Your statistics are skewed. I could just as easily say the 737NG has neve
61 JBirdAV8r : As is so common (and rude) in this forum, I'll pick a nit and ask what happened to the 736 that Air Algerie banged up on landing a while ago? From th
62 RedFlyer : If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's been returned to flight status already. The WN runway over-run aircraft at MDW was the most heavily damaged NG
63 Post contains links and images JBirdAV8r : RedFlyer, View Large View MediumPhoto © Jose Muñoz - Iberian Spotters This is the one I was thinking of. That's great to hear, if it's true. I'v
64 B707Stu : As to US carriers, you don't see them lining up for the A350... the obvious answer is the horrendous state of their finances. The timing and momentum
65 AirFrnt : I think that the future for EADS will depend a lot on what happens with Clearstream. If any other executives get fingered at EADS for involvement, it
66 Stitch : I continue to be surprised why some think the Sonic Cruiser was a "debacle" or a "joke" or a "mistake". It was a product aimed at a market that reall
67 Aither : I think the next single aisle will be more important to know which manufacturer could eventually dominate the other. I also believe the small twin mar
68 Trex8 : the A400 is a military project, since when did any military project , especially in Europe, depend on OEM funding??? It may tie up Airbus/EADs person
69 Saturn5 : It is not shrinking, it is expanding. The average size of the aircraft keeps going down every year for the past 20 years. And, no, small aircraft do
70 Jseesue : No, no, no...Airbus is set to lead Boeing for the next 6 to 8 years. Even though Airbus hasn't sold one for almost a year, it's quite obvious that the
71 B707Stu : I want some of what you're drinking. A380 as the Future of Air Travel? I think, like Concorde before it, it will be a novelty aircraft, all be it wit
72 BoeingBus : in what way? It's no different than any plan available today. The only obvious detail is that it carries more passengers. That's it.
73 DfwRevolution : According to some of the WN employees on this site, repairs should be complete by August or September. Much depends on when the NTSB releases the air
74 Post contains images NAV20 : Oh dear, guys... Jseesue, when you make a joke on here I'd advise putting '(sarcasm)' at both ends of it.
75 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Yeah... I recommed following any healthy serving of sarcasm with about a thousand of these guys: They're really helpful!
76 WingedMigrator : Here's my bet. Airbus will introduce an A335 alongside and separately from the new, all new A350. The A335 will be an A330 with GenX's slapped on, mu
77 Leelaw : How does Airbus get an "A335" (with new engines and structural modifications) to market by 2008, when, apparently, they can't get the A388F (which al
78 Wjcandee : Okay, let's review: NASA has long said that fatal accidents in Airline transport operation are so rare and typically have so many "but for" factors t
79 Saturn5 : such fact is in itself meaningless unless you compare with hours flown which in case of the 737 is really astronomical comparing to other types of ai
80 Aither : Average size is irrelevant. Putting both regional jets and widebody or even taking the fact that no recent aircraft larger than the 747 has been prop
81 Keesje : I think the A380s count double and including options total reach 250. The A380 has a few customers that are not considered blue chip, the 787 has a f
82 Brendows : Exactly, you think alot. Why should the A380 count double, AND include options? Is it just because it's bigger, or just because it's Airbus? Options
83 RichardPrice : I think thats reaching just a little bit...
84 CV990 : Hi! In my personal opinion what do we have so far is just a few orders ( both 787 and A350 ) compared with the potenciality of this market. I think a
85 Post contains links and images Keesje : Because they cost double, have double the engines, wheels, seats etc etc.. Remember Airbus outsold Boeing in 2005, BUT .. value, bigger aircraft , A3
86 Stitch : I also agree it is too early to claim the A380's sales are now hopelessly stalled and the program is doomed. Yes, new Boeing and Airbus planes will of
87 Leelaw : Why would this concept meet any more market acceptance now, than it did in 2004 when it was first floated? Haven't two years essentially been pissed
88 AerospaceFan : This is a critical point, I think. Boeing is currently experiencing something of a decline in its defense businesses, but fortunately, it comes at a
89 DfwRevolution : But how does any of that pretain to the deliveries Airbus will make in the next 6-8 years? Airbus could sell 1,000 A380 this summer, but they can't d
90 Sebolino : Don't get so angry. It's incredible how sensitive you are. Keesje made clear it was a "funny one-liner". More of that, it is not ignorant, it is true
91 NumberTwelve : Selling more planes than the other, counting wide bodies, narrow boddies, etc - who cares? For me it's important that Boeing has a competitor since t
92 Post contains images AerospaceFan : Just a sidenote: I love both Boeing and Airbus; I like Boeing a bit more than Airbus, because I like the "home team", but this doesn't mean that I don
93 Baroque : And especially dont get so angry when the Dutch make a joke. Preserve the moment. And watch the Spyker driver on the great Peking to Paris re-run on
94 DfwRevolution : I don't get angry, I merely have increasing levels of sarcasm and cynicism that have been honed by years of dealing with Keesje's tomfoolery Has the
95 Sebolino : Well, Airbus has done what it has done, nothing less. A fact is a fact.
96 DeltaDC9 : Boeing has NEVER has anything close to a monopoly. Where does this come from? Douglass and Lockheed had Boeing by the throat until the 707, and Boein
97 NumberTwelve : Delta, if A wouldn't be, B would have sort of monopoly - no other companies would build planes in that size like B. So where are the civil planes from
98 Stitch : Because if the A350MkV is truly a A343/A346/777-sized family of airliners, then the A330 is the only plane Airbus can offer at the smaller end of the
99 Saturn5 : You have no clue what you are talking about. It is relevant. The once dominant aircraft over North Atlantic - 747 is not to be seen there - 767 is th
100 Post contains images Keesje : Can somebody bring me some real strong
101 Ken777 : The only interesting A-v-B war is the one the OEMs fight and this one is getting interesting. I think that Airbus will announce a very interesting and
102 Aither : Well i'm always interested to learn. Especially how 4 mid size airplanes flying 5000nm each burn less fuel than 3 airplanes flying 1000nm + 1 larger
103 DeltaDC9 : What I am saying is that the whole argument is moot. There will always be more than one player because of the size of the market. If A or B disappear
104 AirFrnt : I would love to see a reference to this, given that it bucks the 20 year trends.
105 Stitch : I imagine the next few years will be the important ones, in terms of aircraft-sizing trends. So far, most A380 orders seem to be for new capacity more
106 Post contains images Astuteman : I'd venture to suggest DeltaDC9 that the barriers to entry for the mainstream large narrowbody and widebody airliner market are IMMENSE. Firstly, the
107 Post contains links DeltaDC9 : Quoting Astuteman (Reply 106): I'd venture to suggest DeltaDC9 that the barriers to entry for the mainstream large narrowbody and widebody airliner ma
108 DeltaDC9 : They why do the leasing companies say the bigger the plane the smaller the market? Why have large plane sales dropped and smaller widebody sales expl
109 Post contains images Bmacleod : Well if Boeing really has any chance of retaining the 200-500 seat market, it needs pax 747-8 orders soon. Most of its traditional 744 customers seem
110 DeltaDC9 : Are you sure about that? Forget about Y3?
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