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TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?  
User currently offlineMaperrin From Brazil, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 36 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

TAM airlines has informed that they will decide before June end, which aircraft will substitute their F100. As they are Airbus (319/320) users, they should logically chose A318. However, on the other side ,Embraer did not sell one 190 so far in Brazil, mainly because of consumption tax, which was applicable on domestic sales and not exports. Can we really compare those 2 aircrafts ?

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 69
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4107 times:

Quoting Maperrin (Thread starter):
TAM airlines has informed that they will decide before June end, which aircraft will substitute their F100. As they are Airbus (319/320) users, they should logically chose A318. However, on the other side ,Embraer did not sell one 190 so far in Brazil, mainly because of consumption tax, which was applicable on domestic sales and not exports. Can we really compare those 2 aircrafts ?

We have been eagerly nawaiting for this order for some time now. I actually consider this to be close call. I would consider the E190 to be in the front running though.

How important is cargo revenue for TAM? How much of an advantage does the A318 have vs the E190? TAM will also have the opportunity to keep fleet commodity with the rest of the Airbus fleet.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7523 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

Yesterday, the online edition of the Valor news journal mentioned that there was a chance JJ would go for the EMB190. The A318 would seem to have an advantage due to commonality with the rest of the fleet, but those planes are best suited to longish, thin routes rather than short distance hopping, so JJ might go for the Embraer. Are the A318 and the EMB190 the only planes in the race?


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineMaperrin From Brazil, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):

Yes they are.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

Well, seems to me that the 190 would be a great replcement due to the more favorable CASM it has.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3778 times:
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Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
Well, seems to me that the 190 would be a great replcement due to the more favorable CASM it has.

You're right, and as per Valor printed edition, seems that on small routes, where Tam need the planes, E190 is far ahead of A318.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 1):
How much of an advantage does the A318 have vs the E190? TAM will also have the opportunity to keep fleet commodity with the rest of the Airbus fleet.

This is as per Tam sources the only advantage of A318. Price, CASM, Logistic (Embraer is just 100 miles far from CGH/GRU), and even finance (BNDES has a long term rate of 8% in Brazilian Reais, granting to Tam a financial advantage Airbus cannot produce (US$ fed rate 5% plus the risk of long term US$/R$ valuation). The best on Embraer is the finance terms in Brazilian Reais as Tam revenue nowadays is at least 75% originated in domestic operations (a strong hedge). Tax problems has been solved by the Federal and state governments.

Correction: It seems to be a 22 planes order and not 20.
Felipe

[Edited 2006-05-23 18:36:26]


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

My guess is that this order will go to the E190.......aside from whatever financial/currency advantages TAM may enjoy due to the fact that the E190s are built in Brazil (interesting summary, LipeGIG, thank you), the E190 is better suited for the short haul Brazilian domestic routes that TAM now flies with the F100s that will be replaced. The E190 is far better suited for short quick segments than the A318.....as pointed out, the A318 is optimized for longer thin routes which really are not an issue for TAM.

With an order of 20 or 22 aircraft (with possibly follow on orders), commonality is not that important (it tends to get overated not only here at a.net, but also in real life analysis). A fleet of 20-22 aircraft is more than enough to make the economics work properly. I dont think TAM will select the A318 simply for commonality purposes. Look at the JetBlue example, JetBlue went with the E195 although many thought that an A318 order would be placed due to the commonality issue......JetBlue did the analysis and went with the E-jet, and I tend to trust their conclusions.


User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3642 times:

Quoting Maperrin (Thread starter):
Embraer did not sell one 190 so far in Brazil, mainly because of consumption tax, which was applicable on domestic sales and not exports

Is this consumption tax also applicable to import goods? If it is then it would make no difference in buying E190 or A318.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3555 times:
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Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 7):
Is this consumption tax also applicable to import goods? If it is then it would make no difference in buying E190 or A318.

No VAT/consumption tax on imported planes while used for civil aviation. This is why JJ requested ZERO rate on Brazilian VAT.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
My guess is that this order will go to the E190.......aside from whatever financial/currency advantages TAM may enjoy due to the fact that the E190s are built in Brazil


Also my guess ! BNDES is working hardly to finance these birds, and i wish to fly E-jets in Brazil very soon!

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAeronut From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Why not CRJ900 or 900X?

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Let me throw this out here for consideration.... TAM has ordered the A350, but that aircraft may be delayed due to the redesign. TAM won't be happy with this, but maybe Airbus will give them a deal too good to refuse on A318s?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3498 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
The A318 would seem to have an advantage due to commonality with the rest of the fleet, but those planes are best suited to longish, thin routes rather than short distance hopping,



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
The E190 is far better suited for short quick segments than the A318.....as pointed out, the A318 is optimized for longer thin routes which really are not an issue for TAM.

All this is vey true, BUT :

The A318 is indeed optimized for longer thin route, but proved to be very versatile and profitable also on short hope : AF uses its A318 on CDG-SVO as well as CDG-GVA, or CDG-LHR.

The E190 may be the winner on short hop ... I am not sure it is that interesting on longer routes.

And in a medium term, TAM will surely expand its network on longer routes in and out of Brazil, in South America.
An A318 could be perfectly used on a GIG-CGH flight, as well as GRU-SCL or GRU-LIM ... I doubt the E190 would be adapted for that ....


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3464 times:
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Quoting FlySSC (Reply 11):
And in a medium term, TAM will surely expand its network on longer routes in and out of Brazil, in South America.
An A318 could be perfectly used on a GIG-CGH flight, as well as GRU-SCL or GRU-LIM ... I doubt the E190 would be adapted for that ....

Hi Piere, in fact the E190 can fly non stop GRU-SCL and GRU-LIM without restrictions (up to 2,300 nm / 4260Km) . You can check this on Embraer web site.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 11):
The E190 may be the winner on short hop ... I am not sure it is that interesting on longer routes.

And in a medium term, TAM will surely expand its network on longer routes in and out of Brazil, in South America.
An A318 could be perfectly used on a GIG-CGH flight, as well as GRU-SCL or GRU-LIM ... I doubt the E190 would be adapted for that ....

I doubt TAM would ever use A318s or E90s in long and thin routes. From what I've heard, the only reason they have A319s is because the A320s cannot fly into SDU. I highly doubt TAM would ever put an A318 or E90 in flights 3+ hours.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
TAM won't be happy with this, but maybe Airbus will give them a deal too good to refuse on A318s?

Well until they freeze the A350 design, it's complicated to make deals as we dont even know if TAM will stick with the aircraft to begin with- neither what exactly the aircraft will be like (though, IMO, it's likely TAM will keep their order).

But maybe Airbus could try to secure TAM as an A350 customer with a sweet A318 offer and preferencial A350 delivery slots- I'd expect the latter one to be the case for all old-A350 customers, if they choose to maintain their orders.

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3390 times:

The E190 is probably the better choice for them for thin routes.
Probably as well their choice will depend of the deal they could have with both manufacturers.
As the price of the A318 is higher than this of the E190 , certainly all will depend , how far can Airbus go to low the price.

Remember some years ago , during a Paris Air Show , they have signed a LOI for both types !!!!!!!!!.These deals never materialised.Now , seems this matter will take shape.It's nice to see TAM in perfect health.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Hi Piere, in fact the E190 can fly non stop GRU-SCL and GRU-LIM without restrictions (up to 2,300 nm / 4260Km) . You can check this on Embraer web site.

Hi Felipe,

I know they can technically.
I just think that the A318 is more "versatile" and adapted to this kind of traffic.
And I would love to see a TAM A318 !!!  Wink


User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4150 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

Have heard 22 Embraer 195, but I am a bit reluctant to say ""That's it!". IMO we could see a split order, or a larger order - 22 Embraers, and say 10 A318s. But let's wait... in a couple of days we'll know.


Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Going by the information on the surface, I think it would be clear as to which aircraft TAM will be selecting.

The aircraft they are replacing is the F100.

Which of the two aircraft most resembles the F100?

For these supposed "long-thin" routes TAM has, well, don't they already have A319s already in the fleet for this?

Unless the A318 is used to open up new markets, I can't see this happening, it is very well known that the aircraft is better suited to GRU-PTY/CCS/BOG, rather than GGH-GIG/CWB/FLN.....on these routes, the E-Jets are ideally suited. Out of the former batch of possibilities, TAM serves none at this time.

Flying-Tiger may have it....the E195 makes more sense than the E190. CASM.



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User currently offlineDC10Forever From Brazil, joined Oct 2005, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 12 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

I am pretty confident that TAM will take the E190.


Better one flying than two grounded
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