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UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done  
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25253 posts, RR: 85
Posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6636 times:
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So - United goes to B, and Frontier gets the A gates.

http://www.flydenver.com/biz/news/prDetail.asp?pr_id=179

I have to take my hat off to Frontier CEO Potter - he's been totally stubborn about this, and he got what he wanted.

Mind you, United does damn well out of it, too.

mariner

[Edited 2006-05-23 23:59:16]


aeternum nauta
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
Mind you, United does damn well out of it, too.

United wanted to keep those A gates for Ted as they are easiest to get to from the main terminal. But from a connecting passenger's point of view, it will be nice to have all United flights out of the B concourse.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6585 times:

Well F9 has new gates.. let's hope they add some new destinations.. in the Carolina's.. a la jetBlue strategy.. or they could be original and add flights to all 3 ..

just a thought.. it could work.. 1x GSO, 2x RDU, 2x CLT..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineN471WN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6554 times:
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While they are screwing around with the A and B Concourses their former passengers are increasingly headed for Concourse C where the growth action will be---SWA will make this A and B Concourses agreement moot......Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights---they (especially Frontier since they came in and marketed themselves as a low cost alternative) and had their chance to charge fair prices but instead they both ripped off their customers for $375 RT's to Salt Lake City as an example. And now they are and will continue to pay the piper for their price gouging and near price collusion. We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25253 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6543 times:
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Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.

Hmmmm? For the last couple of months, Frontier is reporting record load factors, over 80%.

So someone's not going to C.

 Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6543 times:

Should be interesting to see how the market reacts to this. The stock has taken quite a beating the last few months. Will the market see this as a good move for FRNT or something more to worry about? I see it as a good move depending upon the flights that get announced to use the gates.


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently onlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6763 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
Mind you, United does damn well out of it, too.

And I think that's basically what got the deal done in the end. DIA stepped up and provided sufficient "consideration" to United -- in the form of debt relief and the commitment to build new RJ facilities -- to essentially buy United out of its Concourse A leases.

It all strikes me as a bit of a shell game considering that the airport's debt service requirements and operating costs won't change materially -- just that the cost of servicing the debt being assumed by DIA will get spread around to all the airlines.

It's fantastic news for Frontier, given that they will get six new gates (a big increase from the current sixteen) at far lower costs than would have been required for an extension of the A Concourse. I'd guess this gives them the room to grow their DEN hub by about 40%.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6509 times:

I guess UA finally realized that the A gates were doing nothing but losing money for them...this should benefit everyone involved.

User currently offlineRdwelch From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6449 times:

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
Dbba

?

Friends don't let "executives" drink and type.

Gus

[Edited 2006-05-24 00:38:29]

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6405 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
Hmmmm? For the last couple of months, Frontier is reporting record load factors, over 80%.

So someone's not going to C.



mariner

Good point. I think we're a LONG ways from WN making a huge dent in the DEN marketplace. F9 seems to have gotten what it needed, which takes a lot of pressure off of them to find a new, secondary [domestic] focus city/hub.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6386 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
United wanted to keep those A gates for Ted as they are easiest to get to from the main terminal. But from a connecting passenger's point of view, it will be nice to have all United flights out of the B concourse.

No, UA wanted the gates to keep F9 in check. But UA also wants to kick up their services to smaller markets (and DEN is the best positioned airport in the nation for good small regional aircraft) and also wanted to be free of some additional outstanding debt.

Now that Southwest is in the game, UA can't keep pricing control just by putting pressure on F9. With WN talking about up to 200 flights daily, UA needs to build more feeder traffic to keep their flights busy.

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
While they are screwing around with the A and B Concourses their former passengers are increasingly headed for Concourse C where the growth action will be---SWA will make this A and B Concourses agreement moot......Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights---they (especially Frontier since they came in and marketed themselves as a low cost alternative) and had their chance to charge fair prices but instead they both ripped off their customers for $375 RT's to Salt Lake City as an example. And now they are and will continue to pay the piper for their price gouging and near price collusion. We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.

*snort* Sorry, I was in and out of DEN last week three times. In ever case (2 flights on UA, 1 on F9) it was still Concourse A and B that were flooded early on. Don't get me wrong, WN is going to be a force in Denver, they already are. But A & B is where the action is.

Now, in about 6 months, I expect to see some announcement from WN that they have picked up gates on Concourse C, or a expansion of C concourse, but DEN is booming, and that ain't just because of blue/cyan boys.


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6351 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
Well F9 has new gates.. let's hope they add some new destinations.. in the Carolina's.. a la jetBlue strategy.. or they could be original and add flights to all 3

I don't think a B6 strategy is what anyone wants to follow right now.

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
While they are screwing around with the A and B Concourses their former passengers are increasingly headed for Concourse C where the growth action will be---SWA will make this A and B Concourses agreement moot......Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights---they (especially Frontier since they came in and marketed themselves as a low cost alternative) and had their chance to charge fair prices but instead they both ripped off their customers for $375 RT's to Salt Lake City as an example. And now they are and will continue to pay the piper for their price gouging and near price collusion. We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C

It's simply supply and demand. WN and the others have raised fares, WN led the latest price increases. Not that it's a bad thing, the airlines needed it. While you say F9 and UA were gouging on the SLC route, they (UA & F9) were being gouged on other routes. Pull up ticket prices here in Chicago and seldom do you find WN much if any less than it's competitors. WN may bring the prices down a bit, but if there is a demand for SLC, WN must make money too.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
Hmmmm? For the last couple of months, Frontier is reporting record load factors, over 80%.



How are their yields?

I tried to add something dealing with the concourse consolidation, but don't have much to day about it. I do hope it benefits both UA and F9 and the addition of WN will create a quality competition that all customers can benefit.

M


User currently offlineKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6315 times:

UA will give back, over a period of time, the six Concourse A gates that it currently leases for its Ted operation. The Ted flights will be moved to Concourse B where United is installing dual loading bridges to speed up loading and unloading of passengers.

F9 currently leases 16 gates on Concourse A, and so with the additional six, they will be at a total of 22 gates on A, enough to support their current and future needs.

F9 will not be able to acquire all of the concourse A gates right away. Under the agreement, United will give up one Concourse A gate July 1. They will surrender a second gate when their dual loading bridge project is completed on Concourse B around the middle of November. United will then return the remaining four Concourse A gates to DIA when their Concourse B regional jet facility is completed, which is expected to be in about nine months.


User currently offlineAirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 561 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6301 times:

Finally, Frontier gets the gates it has needed for years and DIA gives us a little something. After all, we have been a loyal paying tenant since our move over to DIA from Stapleton for the last 11 years. UA not only consolidates their operations on the B Concourse, but in return, DIA picks up the tab on some of their debt as well as a new RJ facility.

Great deal all around.

Thank you for sharing Mariner!

Cheers!  

[Edited 2006-05-24 01:22:12]

User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6301 times:

this is not news as far as TED moving to B. Pretty much announced months ago when UA signed the deal for dual A320 overwing jetways and specified Concourse C as the install site.

User currently offlineKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6287 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 14):
this is not news as far as TED moving to B. Pretty much announced months ago when UA signed the deal for dual A320 overwing jetways and specified Concourse C as the install site.

Don't you mean they specified Concourse B as the install site?


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25253 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6230 times:
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Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 14):
this is not news as far as TED moving to B.

You are right, Ted moving to B is not news.

The news - and it is big news - is that United has agreed that the A gates should go to Frontier.

This signals a change in attitude by United to Frontier, possibly for the first time in Frontier's existence.

As AirFrnt says:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
No, UA wanted the gates to keep F9 in check.

That mindset has now changed. You have to wonder what has happened at DIA in the last few months to cause it to change. Love?

You also have to think the guys at Continental are scratching their heads, wondering how much their 3 gates on Concourse A might be worth.

 Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlightopsguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
.Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights--

Huh? UA is reporting record load factors. Second highest behind NW for many months. Bookings for all airlines reported as very high for the summer travel season. UA has announced additional service in the fall for DEN. If you are in the business, try non-revving from DEN to PHX/LAS/LAX/SFO/ORD/MDW on any carrier, including WN. Flights are essentially full except for a seat here or there on the EMO (Early Morning Originator) or the last flight of the night.

IF WN ends up with 600 flites a day to/from DEN, then UA and F9 will have 2000 combined. That will at last test the DEN ATC arrival rate of 160 per hour.

There is enough business for every airline to make money if fares and skeds are done correctly.



A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6176 times:

Maybe F9 would be compelled to restart New England Service ala MHT. MHT has the ex-DH gate, which could serve 2-4 DEN flights a day.

User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6176 times:

yup..my bad. with the deal to put in 5 test overwing jetways on B the move from A was a forgone conclusion...and the mutual ageement to release A gates not a real big secret considering UA had no mainline aircraft on order to expand A or B or even Z. UA stayed quiet...and interestingly so did the City.... and let F9, and the Rocky Mountain News, continue to make hay over the lack of A gates...and then report continued losses after LUV moved into C. Was F9 played a bit by a few parties? probably.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25253 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6158 times:
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Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 19):
Was F9 played a bit by a few parties? probably.

Um - I don't think so. CEO Potter could have signed to have the new gates built any day he wanted.

Frontier had the money in the bank for the new extension and every man and his dog - or every airline analyst and armchair CEO (inlcuding many on this site) - was telling him he must do it.

But Mr. Potter would not. He hung on for those A gates, and he got 'em. He has given Frontier room to expand at DEN, and he has done it without the addtional cost of the new gates.

So - how was F9 "played"?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

huh? sure Potter could have had the expansion if he wanted to pay but the airport did not want to cover costs. However...the airport is taking 160m of UA costs for UA to move plus saving an almost equiv amount of now non needed construction...

but F9 does not get the whole deal for 9 months...gate or two now but that is it...9 months a lifetime nowadays with 70 dollar barrel oil. Meanwhile UA does what it wants during the period.

Played


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25253 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6105 times:
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Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 21):
but F9 does not get the whole deal for 9 months..

Sure - but how long would it take to build the extension?

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 21):
Meanwhile UA does what it wants during the period.

UA has always done what it wants. And - as I said in the first post - they have done damn well out of this deal.

But I simply fail to see how Frontier - who got everything they wanted without cost - got "played".

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6047 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
But I simply fail to see how Frontier - who got everything they wanted without cost - got "played"

9 more months (thru most of next year ski season not to mention xmas) of pretty much same facility competing now against the other LCC...Southwest...growing monthly....while UA goes it merry way. Let alone the LUV expansion but the DAL and NWA chapt 11 means agressive skeds for fall winter domestically once sumnmer europe flying is over...and with the 'new' USAir also becoming agressive while F9 basically frozen on space on their home base until into 2007.

That is played. F9 is left with n/s on the west coast..a market they already failed in once out of LAX...plus Mexico which is not a hot summer destination...no pun intended.


User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6005 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
You also have to think the guys at Continental are scratching their heads, wondering how much their 3 gates on Concourse A might be worth.

Probably not alot for a very long time. F9 now has more than enough gates to cover their operation.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
Frontier had the money in the bank for the new extension and every man and his dog - or every airline analyst and armchair CEO (inlcuding many on this site) - was telling him he must do it.

Well I gotta admit that clusterf--- on the west end of the A concourse wasn't fun to deal with (6 gates in the space of what should have been only at most 4). Something was needed, and I guess they got something.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 23):
That is played. F9 is left with n/s on the west coast..a market they already failed in once out of LAX

They didn't try west coast out of LAX, they tried Midwest out of LAX.


25 F9Animal : This is great news for F9! I always thought it was tacky to see the TED planes parked in the same area as F9. Gotta give UA credit though, they really
26 PlanesNTrains : Perhaps all true, but if the alternative was for them to fork out a signifcant sum of $$$ for an expansion, only to then have the gates they original
27 FlyHoss : As you probably recall, CO was the first carrier to sign on for DIA. They sub-leased some gates - 10 if I recall correctly - to F9. Does anyone know
28 Mariner : So - the whole weight of the US civil aviation industry conspired to "play" Frontier? Oh, mate, too funny. mariner
29 Phelpsie87 : This is great news!! One question though...are they adding on to the already existing RJ terminal or what? I am a little confused on where its going t
30 Flypdx : Are there any plans/renderings of this RJ Facility that will be built?
31 Alias1024 : If not valuable from a financial point of view, they are definately valuable from a psychological point of view. Continental's way of saying "screw y
32 F9Mechanic : There will be some more newscome out in the next few weeks about Frontier taking over the Continental hangar, and getting their gates on A concorse. H
33 Post contains images Mariner : For now? Yes. But the alarm was first raised about gates - or future lack thereof - on terminal A about five years ago. It has taken all that time to
34 DLKAPA : This could also be a move for UA to allow F9 to better compete with WN so that they (UA) don't have to as much, or sort of a "lets focus on the newcom
35 Mariner : A few other people have suggested that. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach. Yes, I think they may be, and yes, United would have to use A
36 WesternA318 : Umm, not me, I'm quite happy doing SLC-IAH-DEN on CO for my journeys to Colorado.
37 Gigneil : You and literally nobody else on the planet that's not on a mileage run. Such a routing makes no sense to anyone in any sort of business. N
38 AAden : [quote=Dbba,reply=3]We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C. right too AA anyways it's seems frontier will be expanding
39 WesternA318 : Gigneil; I dont frequent Colorado to any extent and when I do, I might as well take the airline of my choice. Besides, whats an extra $400?
40 Post contains links and images Nosedive : From the FlyDenver.com Press Release: Read the rest here All comes down to * Despite the Bermuda II debate (you're right Eric, all London flights go t
41 Mariner : Um - yes. Yes-ish. It also comes down to a willingness by United to let the gates go - and how much DIA was prepared to give. That is not in dispute.
42 ShowerOfSparks : Well obviously SWA has succeeded in getting you out of the Greyhound terminal and out to the airport, so be it. You're entitled to your opinion. As f
43 AirEMS : I would love someone other than US / DL flying to ILM Fly & Work Safe -Carl
44 Jmy007 : Denver is not really set up for ease of international arrival and transfer. Since FIS is in the main terminals. You would still have to unload the je
45 AirFrnt : This is probably a good thing. Gives F9 time to ramp up. I think you mean Concourse B. CO has a insanely good setup in Concourse A because of their l
46 MaverickM11 : United was only sitting on those A gates to prevent Frontier from taking them. There is no reason to have retardTed on those gates, especially since T
47 United737522 : Hell, why don't you just fly through EWR while you are at it, what's an extra $700?
48 MaverickM11 : That is dumb.
49 Post contains images Mariner : Um - about three (?) years ago, in the post 9/11 doldrums when the whole A gate issue was being discussed, Continental took that same position - "we
50 AirFrnt : The local buzz has been that JetBlue wants to get out of the DEN market, rather then expand here. At 3 flights daily (IIRC) two gates seems like a hu
51 MaverickM11 : Boston has got to be losing money, and I'm not so sure that JFK is great either.
52 Mariner : It would be great for Frontier if they did pull out of DEN, but it is hard for me to imagine Mr. Neeleman's ego letting that happen. As ever, I would
53 AirFrnt : Mr. Neeleman's ego has probably had some chopping since the last B6 quarterly report. For the most part, I agree. But DEN is actually built so that w
54 Mariner : Very true. But even his aircraft deferment plan was pretty bloodless. They are still planning 20%-ish growth. I am sure you are right. But no one got
55 Post contains images AirFrnt : That much we agree on. DEN is regarded by many as being the best run and most efficent airport in the United States. I want to make sure that happens
56 Flashmeister : This is a good deal for F9. While it may be 9 mos or so before they get all of the gates, it would be more than that if F9 was to break ground on thei
57 WesternA318 : Exactly my point. I've done SLC-IAH-EWR-DEN, then on the return DEN-IAH-SLC. Fun trip too, all to see last years Ozzfest.
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