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Why US Airways Ordered A350?  
User currently offlineScoljet From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 30 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8836 times:

With the recent merger I can understand that there are a lot of buses in the combined fleet. However why did US not even consider the 787? They have operated 737/757 with much success as has HP. Will US become all bus fleet?? If so what is the reasoning? I know they are somewhat cash strapped but come on you gotta look at the return on investment as well. Any thoughts?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8823 times:

US ordered the Airbii because Airbus gave them some cash. End of story. However, US has recently paid off Airbus.. I'm not saying they will renig out their 350 order.. but I do believe that the new US will be looking at the 787 too.. but that is JUST MY BELIEF!

But I don't think US has completely ruled Boeing out the picture..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8741 times:

This is a long, and some consider, controversial story.........lets just go for the short version.

1. US+HP were each large Airbus operators.

2. US and HP agreed to merge as US exited bankruptcy.

3. The newly combined airline needed cash, sometimes called exit financing.

4. Airbus agreed to loan US/HP a good amount of money; not unusual, as both airlines have lots of Airbus planes which Airbus wants to remain in the air with this airline.

5. As part of the deal, US/HP agreed to take 20 A350s for future delivery.

6. US/HP has paid back the Airbus loan, and not knowing any specific details, we assume that the order for the A350s remains.

7. HP/US was to use the new A350s to expand and replace existing aircraft.

8. With the entire A350 program "up in the air", its hard to say what will happen. When the new and improved model line-up and stats are available for the A350/370, US/HP, like other airlines, must redetermine if this is the aircraft that they want.

9. Execs over at US Air have already stated that they are not interested in the super-sized A350/370-1000.......and that they would not take an airplane bigger than the original A350-8......thus its totally not clear if US will end up with A350s in any shape or form at this time.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5831 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8501 times:

US East had vowed to never again order a Boeing, After Boeing blamed the rudder hard-over crash of that 737 on the pilots and their training.

However, US West (the controlling factor these days) never made such a statement.
So maybe there's still a chance for a 7E7 in US new colors? That'd be BEAUTIFUL!!!


User currently offlineSpartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 503 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8383 times:

Why? Because the original A350 concept has been a market-driven success and enjoyed widespread praise by all major airlines.

It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with bankruptcy financing provided by Airbus.

 duck 



"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlineStarCityFlyr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8376 times:

As a dear old friend used to say, "there's a lot of slip between the cup and the lip."

The fact that the A-350 design is still "up in the air" (forgive the pun), I think it's reasonable to presume that US Airways is looking at all their options when it comes to fleet replenishment and replacement. For any carrier to emphatically announce an unequivocal position on equipment this day and time would seem to be short sighted at best.

I think Mr. Parker and his team are evaluating all of their options. IMHO, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some new Boeing metal in new US Airways colors in the years to come.

Happy Flying All!


User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8329 times:

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 4):
It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with bankruptcy financing provided by Airbus.

Are you serious? I"m not saying any aircraft is better than any other. I'm not saying any aircraft is more efficient, better looking, or more popular than any other. I'm saying the main reason US is a A350 orderer is because they got $250 Million from Airbus. Nothing is wrong with that. Boeing has helped a lot of other airlines out who ordered Boeing.. But that is the main reason US is on the 350 order book. And if anyone disagrees with that.. well then.. well.. then disagree then! Big grin



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8312 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 6):

Are you serious? I"m not saying any aircraft is better than any other. I'm not saying any aircraft is more efficient, better looking, or more popular than any other. I'm saying the main reason US is a A350 orderer is because they got $250 Million from Airbus. Nothing is wrong with that. Boeing has helped a lot of other airlines out who ordered Boeing.. But that is the main reason US is on the 350 order book. And if anyone disagrees with that.. well then.. well.. then disagree then!

I think he was teasing......

And, before the Airbus chearleaders come out to play: Airbus brought this on themselves......linking the financing with the order for new aircraft was a controversial move, but we have been though all of this before.


User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8281 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
I think he was teasing......

Ohhh.. oops.. my bad.. sorry..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineTom12 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 1078 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8227 times:

I definetly think it was to do with the 250 million dollars US recived from Airbus


"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8191 times:

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 9):
I definetly think it was to do with the 250 million dollars US recived from Airbus

Airbus was pretty flexible with US/HP on other issues I believe, such as delaying delivery and shifting around deposits for existing orders. That no doubt built up good will. Of course Airbus had its reasons, namely keeping US/HP afloat so there wouldn't be a massive influx of used A320s and A330s onto the market.

I think the size of what Airbus puts out will be key. US isn't suddenly going to be able to fill a larger aircraft from its PHL, PHX and Charlote hubs, especially since they aren't the only US Star Alliance airline, and UA has hubs in cities with greater international O&D.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8003 times:

Don't you think that if they were happy enough with having A350s replacing A330s (or adding to their fleet) they will be even happier with the all new A350, especially as Airbus is likely to want to keep US as a customer and give them the better aircraft for the same price. Why would they want to switch? Its not like their A330s or old or anything...

Airways45


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7974 times:

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 4):
It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with bankruptcy financing provided by Airbus.

I was in PIT on business with USAirways when the America West-USAirways merger was announced and that was all they were talking about. Airbus advanced USAirways the money to help form the merger and as doing so they placed the order for the A350. Also announced was they would be going to an all Airbus fleet.

Kidding or not, that is what was reported

[Edited 2006-05-25 01:58:46]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7957 times:

The A350 order also has too many conditions attached to it. The plane has to meet certain promises made by Airbus.

User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7940 times:

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
The plane has to meet certain promises made by Airbus.

And if it does not you will see US with 787's

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7847 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
US East had vowed to never again order a Boeing, After Boeing blamed the rudder hard-over crash of that 737 on the pilots and their training.

Didn't they take delivery of some 757s after that - or was it before? You really think they'd take the lesser of two competing aircraft because of that?

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 4):

It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with bankruptcy financing provided by Airbus.

Nothing? I don't know that anyone credible would agree with that.

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 9):
I definetly think it was to do with the 250 million dollars US recived from Airbus

I have to believe 250 million dollars didn't hurt Airbus' sales pitch for the A350.

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
The A350 order also has too many conditions attached to it. The plane has to meet certain promises made by Airbus.

I wonder what Airbus' rumored complete overhaul of A350 - if it happens, will effect that.

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 14):
And if it does not you will see US with 787's

I wouldn't say odds are great, but I wouldn't yet rule it out either... 787 is on a roll, so to speak, and if A350 is going to be redesigned completely, and put back another number of years further, they may not want to wait (as some of their 767s are getting very tired) and may opt for the 787.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7781 times:

Doesn't US want to expand to new international destinations that are currently out of reach with their current fleet? An A333 can't do PHX-FRA can it? US has no A332s and even if they ordered some they might have some limits on PHX-Europe. The A350 can do that plus maybe help open routes to Asia and other places out of the range of the A330.

I think that there are multiple reasons for the A350. Expansion with a plane that can go from PHX to Europe and maybe to Asia while staying with a plan for an all Airbus fleet combined with the need for exit financing from Bankruptcy. It seems like a win win situation. Airbus gets orders for the launch of a new aircraft from a loyal customer and US gets exit financing and an aircraft that can helps with expansion.

Wasn't US going to take delivery of the A350 in 2012 anyway? If that is the case, they don't loose much.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7562 times:

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 4):
It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with bankruptcy financing provided by Airbus.

If I recall, the A350 Order was linked to the financing for the HP/US Merger, and also was linked to Airbus agreeing to delay the A320 Deliveries that HP had on the books.... last but not least, I think that the A350 also had been a stipulation of the deal with Airbus, lets remember that at the time Airbus was still trying to get the program off the ground, having very few orders on the books... last but not least while I'm not saying that the "new" US couldn't launch flights from PHX I think it might be unlikely... as it stands PHX has a limited Business market, that's why HP had adjusted their Revenue mix and became a "Low Cost Carrier" back around 2001.... they believed that there wasn't enough traffic to sustain the typical business/discount mix... and lets not forget the 747 runs they had.... anyways.. that's my horse... we'll see what actually happens...



Why do I fly???
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4331 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7545 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
US East had vowed to never again order a Boeing, After Boeing blamed the rudder hard-over crash of that 737 on the pilots and their training.

I don't believe the spat between "US East" and Boeing emanated from the rudder hard-over crash. That crash happened in 1994. Boeing and US East had a legal spat in the late 90's over the cancellation of a bunch of Boeing jets that US had on order. (It was when former CEO Wolf decided to go with an all-Airbus fleet and basically thumbed his nose at Boeing.) From what I remember, the dispute turned ugly before finally being settled, but the result was that each pretty much stated publicly that their business relationship was over.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7520 times:

CO + Boeing = Airbus + US.

User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7473 times:

No matter what happens with the A350, I am sure US has a plan.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 16):
US has no A332s and even if they ordered some they might have some limits on PHX-Europe.

They already have some on order.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7408 times:

Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
The A350 order also has too many conditions attached to it. The plane has to meet certain promises made by Airbus.

I can't believe how many times this has been discussed. US Airways must show that the 350's "performance" is inferior to the 787 in order to switch sides. How a schedule delay of say 2 years fits into the contract is a new issue. I'd bet Airbus will pull out a proposal to provide US with an interim Airbus solution. The only in-production equivalent aircraft (in range and size) that I'm aware of is the A340/200.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 16):
Doesn't US want to expand to new international destinations that are currently out of reach with their current fleet? An A333 can't do PHX-FRA can it? US has no A332s and even if they ordered some they might have some limits on PHX-Europe. The A350 can do that plus maybe help open routes to Asia and other places out of the range of the A330.

The 330-200 will easily make PHX-NRT or PHX-FRA, or PHL-HNL, or PHL-RIO, but not PHL-Asia. The 350 would be needed for PHL-Asia non-stop.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7356 times:

Thank you Vega and SonofaCaptain. I learn new things everyday.

They have 10 on order. But when are they to be delivered?
They have 9 A333s right?
They ordered something like 39 A350s. That is a huge boost in capacity!

With the A332 they could get at least one landing slot into NRT and they have the gate space especially with T1 Star Alliance wing opening in a week. They could also get slots at NGO and KIX allowing them to fly there and offer connections to UA and NH Inter-Asia and NH domestic. (I can dream... can't I?)

[Edited 2006-05-25 09:17:03]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7356 times:

Two reasons:
1)
Because they have a huge A320 and A330 fleet and are satisfied with Airbus.
The A350 is the successor of the A330 offering them commonality with the rest of the fleet.

2)
Airbus gave them a loan to get out of Chapter 11 and make the merger possible.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7270 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 1):
US ordered the Airbii because Airbus gave them some cash.

Thats pretty much it plain and simple, Airbus gave US the financing they needed to exit bankruptcy in return for A350 orders. Basically buying themselves orders. To me thats pathetic, and yes even if Boeing did something like that too, it would be pathetic. http://www.aviationpast.com/A350.html has some info regarding that, and the background of the A350 program.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 Manni : That Airbus at the same time, possibly saved thousands of jobs in an industry that is already down the toilet in the US is pathetic too? US$ 250milli
26 Columba : US is one of the largest Airbus customers - if they would have gone bankrupt the market would be full with second hand A320s and would have ruined th
27 Revelation : I think the correct answer was given earlier: The new A350 may end up being a much larger plane, sized more like a 777 than an A330/767. This may be
28 American762 : The answer is absolutely obvious. US Airways currently operates the A330, the A350 will contain roughly the same cockpit, and pilots accustomed to the
29 EI321 : Thats business my friend. The money has already been repayed. 250m is roughly 8% of the value of the deal. Its fair to say that all big orders reciev
30 11Bravo : With all due respect, it's not that simple. Commonality is a consideration no doubt, but it is several notches down the priority list. As others have
31 Dutchjet : Good post - commonality is one of many factors.....and it tends to be overated, especially here at a.net. US is not going to go for the supersized A3
32 ERJ170 : Disagreeable... US has a small fleet of 330. Only 9.. which can easily be replaced.. and no 350s right now.. which can easily be changed.. so the com
33 11Bravo : In a word, no. It really stretches one's imagination to think that one aircraft could cover such a wide range of capabilities and remain efficient an
34 Post contains links EI321 : They have more than that on order. It seems to planned to keep the new fuselage aircraft around the same seating numbers as the current A350. ''The f
35 EI321 : The new A350 is to enter service in 2012. Only 3 airlines were due to recieve aircraft before 2012: US (2011) I cant see it being much of a problem,
36 11Bravo : From your own source listed above: ..., but the delay in EIS will delay all orders. It's not just the three airlines that had EIS dates of 2010-2011
37 Dutchjet : " target=_blank>http://www.atwonline.com/news/story....=4991 This is not yet confirmed........there are also reports that all members of the new and i
38 Manni : No. Contrary to Boeing and the 787, Airbus has sold very few production slots for the first 2 years after commercial launch. To be exact, 10 to Air E
39 EI321 : What viable alternatives do they have that will be availible before 2012? Bearing in mind that many already operate A330s. The 787 is sold out throug
40 11Bravo : I think we all know those other, unsold, early slots were (are?) mostly for QR. If QR doesn't place an order for the new A350, you're point is probab
41 Gigneil : They ordered 20 and will have 19 A330s. The A350-800 is not the size of a 767. N
42 Ouboy79 : Just one other correction, sort of, to the Airbus loan. US only took around $170 million of the $250 million. Again, as stated, paid it off...but have
43 A330323X : Only if 20 can be considered something like 39. You're not. US converted orders for 1x A330-300 and 18x A32X into the order for 10x A330-200.
44 Manni : Yes, but we dont know how many they want in 2010 and 2011. QR announced that they might purchase 60 A350's, starting delivery from 2010. I seriously
45 Joni : How do you know they didn't consider the 787?
46 KYAir : They could be. How 'bout this scenario: US cancels the A332 and A350 orders, buys 20 new-build 763ERs from Boeing for delivery in 2006-07 in an agree
47 Joni : Umm, then why did they order the A350s?? I don't quite follow your logic here.
48 Dutchjet : I would not hold my breathe waiting for this proposed deal to happen...........
49 Post contains images KYAir : Presumably they ordered the 350 due to the exit financing provided by Airbus, but since they have now paid off that loan perhaps they will now consid
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