Targowski From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 127 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4246 times:
i noticed that NW/KL fly 3x daily DTW-AMS, linking both carriers hub airports. this is an approximately 7 to 7.5 hr flight eastbound changing 6 time zones. daytime flights exist ORD-LHR and NYC-LHR, why not DTW-AMS?
considering the benefit of a daytime flight to certain travelers and the possibility of onward connections from AMS, i think this flight is both technically and economically feasible.
Dtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4239 times:
Quoting Targowski (Thread starter): noticed that NW/KL fly 3x daily DTW-AMS, linking both carriers hub airports. this is an approximately 7 to 7.5 hr flight eastbound changing 6 time zones. daytime flights exist ORD-LHR and NYC-LHR, why not DTW-AMS?
I don't know the exact percent, but I would gather to say that most of those passengers on the DTW-AMS flights are connecting onward at AMS. What type of connections would be available when a day flight from Detroit would get in in the evening? Not many, hence no day time flights.
Ssides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 23 Reply 2, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4237 times:
The daytime flights ORD-LHR, IAD-LHR, JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR are primarily designed as O&D flights. The common passenger on these flights is the business traveler who wants to fly to London and get a good full night's sleep before meetings the next day.
While the daytime flight is possible, remember that a flight leaving DTW at 8:00 am would not arrive at AMS until 8:00 pm at the earliest. While there are connections after that, there are not near as many connections for passengers as the flight that arrives at 8:00 am or 10:00 am. Given the choice, most people would rather fly through the night on a plane than be forced to sleep in an airport.
Add that to the fact that there isn't sufficient O&D between DTW and AMS for the daytime flights, and you see why NW operates its flights overnight.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19707 posts, RR: 56 Reply 3, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4171 times:
Quoting Ssides (Reply 2): remember that a flight leaving DTW at 8:00 am would not arrive at AMS until 8:00 pm at the earliest.
That's exactly why. NW doesn't carry much O&D traffic on that route, it's mostly connections. An 8:00am departure from DTW doesn't allow many connections from domestic flights, and an 8:00pm arrival in AMS doesn't allow many connections to other European destinations. Thus, it's all overnight.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Schipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4054 times:
Simply put: connecting passengers. Majority of the passengers connect onwards from AMS. A large number of flight to Asia, Africa, the Middle East leave by early to late morning/afternoon. Arriving late in the evening in AMS will only leave passengers stranded at Schiphol.
Flyingfool From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 415 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3909 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 3): and an 8:00pm arrival in AMS doesn't allow many connections to other European destinations.
Are you sure? don't forget that KLM has changed it daily schedule for European traffic with effect of the current summer schedule and has put an extra block (6th) of departures at Schiphol airport.
Due to this extra block almost all late evening night stop traffic to European citys take place after 2000LT. If the NW daylight can arrive at arround 1915LT you have a wide choice of connecting flights to other European destinations:
2005 Paris CDG (AF)
2015 Berlin TXL
2015 Munster FMO
2015 London LHR
2015 Rome FCO
2020 Milan MXP
2020 Sandefjord TRF
2025 Cork (EI)
2030 Bucharest OTP
2030 Budapest (MA)
2040 Dublin (EI)
2050 Paris CDG (AF)
2055 Bergen BGO
2100 Tel Aviv
2100 Kuala Lumpur/Jakarta
2100 Stockholm ARN
2105 Nairobi (KQ)
2140 Durham/Tees Valley
A problem could be a delay...
If the DTW flight arrives late, most connections will be lost and passengers have to be put in hotels because of no available connections on the same day...
Doing so would require it to leave DTW at 525am (based on flight times similar to the other DTW-AMS flights). That's pretty damn early as far as I'm concerned. The earliest that flight could reasonably leave would be 7am, which would put it into AMS at 855pm. Allow 45 minutes for the connection, and that leaves these flights:
Let's say the flight left at 6am (which would require the pax to check in no later than 4am, which borders on the inhumane). It would arrive at 755pm, and connections would be possible to these flights:
Not a bad selection, but remember that just as most of the passengers on NW's DTW-AMS flights aren't terminating in AMS, most of them aren't originating in DTW either. There has to be room for connections on both sides of the ocean, which is why a daytime flight won't work.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4414 posts, RR: 76 Reply 7, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3788 times:
Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 5): Due to this extra block almost all late evening night stop traffic to European citys take place after 2000LT. If the NW daylight can arrive at arround 1915LT you have a wide choice of connecting flights to other European destinations
Quoting Mir (Reply 6): Doing so would require it to leave DTW at 525am (based on flight times similar to the other DTW-AMS flights). That's pretty damn early as far as I'm concerned. The earliest that flight could reasonably leave would be 7am, which would put it into AMS at 855pm
Even an 1915LT arrival would be slightly too late, seeing as how KLM schedules its own last inbound longhaul traffic for arrival at 1845LT at the very latest:
KL742 from LIM at 1740
KL866 from ICN at 1815
KL804 from MNL at 1835
KL892 from CTU at 1845
Scheduling an 1845LT arrival into AMS would require a 0455am DTW departure when counting a 7.50h block time. I doubt very much that anyone would go for a flight like that, not to mention the lack of inbound connections at DTW.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4414 posts, RR: 76 Reply 9, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3751 times:
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8): Also the plane would then have to sit on the ground and thus earning no money! And by leaving DTW that early in the AM all the pax would have to be O/D no chance for connecting pax
There was a time when NW had a plane overnighting at AMS. I don't know whether that is still the case, though, and seeing the recent NW delays, including overnight delays, I don't believe that is still the case.
Cgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1077 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3627 times:
I know it's a bit off topic but I was surprised to see KLM gave up all its flight to DTW, MEM and MSP to NW. I use to fly to DTW quite a lot in mid-90s and always made sure I was on a KL machine. The service was simply better and the flight was usually a 747 and not an old rickety DC-10 from NW. Anyone know why KLstopped serving these destinations on its own?
Jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7336 posts, RR: 52 Reply 14, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3592 times:
Before 9/11, it was talked about. In a base meetting in August of 01, the President of inflight services, Hector Adler, did tell us that since the DTW-AMS route was running as full as it was, that the company was looking at possibly offering a morning AMS flight during the summer flying months in 2002 (if the traffic was still as brisk)while the 5 AMS flights were offered. The thought was to move NW40 from the 4:20pm departure time, to 9am, and upgrade NW54 a 744 to compensate for the loss of the early flight. The return flight would've left AMS around 7am and arrived at around 10am. Whether it would be flown by KLM or NW was never revealed. This, plus the idea of opening a FA crewbase in LAS, IAD, PHX and MIA were also looked at, but 9/11 happened and all of that was scuttled and never heard anything more about it.
Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 12): know it's a bit off topic but I was surprised to see KLM gave up all its flight to DTW, MEM and MSP to NW.
We gave them IAD, and EWR in exchange for the MEM, and MSP flight. DTW was always a tradeoff uncompensated. They would usually operate AMS-DTW-AMS during the summer when the frequencies were upgraded to 5 daily's
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4414 posts, RR: 76 Reply 17, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3392 times:
Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 12): I know it's a bit off topic but I was surprised to see KLM gave up all its flight to DTW, MEM and MSP to NW.
It makes more sense to have NW operate the rotations from its own hubs as it allows for greater operational freedom, and as such less operational irregularities resulting in better on time performance of the entire transatlantic operation.
The more non-hub flights NW operates the more vulnerable the entire system becomes to delays because there is normally no room for aircraft changes at non-hub stations and the technical facilities to deal with maintenance issues are limited.
As such, the current system, with NW plying all DTW, MSP and MEM frequencies makes a lot of sense. The only weaker points in the system are BOS and BOM (soon to be joined by EWR when NW takes over the flight), which are non-hub stations, but then AMS is important and flexible enough as a NW hub not to have delays on those routes ripple through the network.
The introduction of an all A330 operation at AMS will further improve operational stability. Note that SEA, although not a hub, is not necessary a weak link, as it is connected to both the AMS and NRT widebody hubs.