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Why No Daytime DTW-AMS Flights On KLM/NW?  
User currently offlineTargowski From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 127 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 6008 times:

i noticed that NW/KL fly 3x daily DTW-AMS, linking both carriers hub airports. this is an approximately 7 to 7.5 hr flight eastbound changing 6 time zones. daytime flights exist ORD-LHR and NYC-LHR, why not DTW-AMS?

considering the benefit of a daytime flight to certain travelers and the possibility of onward connections from AMS, i think this flight is both technically and economically feasible.

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 6001 times:

Quoting Targowski (Thread starter):
noticed that NW/KL fly 3x daily DTW-AMS, linking both carriers hub airports. this is an approximately 7 to 7.5 hr flight eastbound changing 6 time zones. daytime flights exist ORD-LHR and NYC-LHR, why not DTW-AMS?

I don't know the exact percent, but I would gather to say that most of those passengers on the DTW-AMS flights are connecting onward at AMS. What type of connections would be available when a day flight from Detroit would get in in the evening? Not many, hence no day time flights.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

The daytime flights ORD-LHR, IAD-LHR, JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR are primarily designed as O&D flights. The common passenger on these flights is the business traveler who wants to fly to London and get a good full night's sleep before meetings the next day.

While the daytime flight is possible, remember that a flight leaving DTW at 8:00 am would not arrive at AMS until 8:00 pm at the earliest. While there are connections after that, there are not near as many connections for passengers as the flight that arrives at 8:00 am or 10:00 am. Given the choice, most people would rather fly through the night on a plane than be forced to sleep in an airport.

Add that to the fact that there isn't sufficient O&D between DTW and AMS for the daytime flights, and you see why NW operates its flights overnight.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 5933 times:

Quoting Ssides (Reply 2):
remember that a flight leaving DTW at 8:00 am would not arrive at AMS until 8:00 pm at the earliest.

That's exactly why. NW doesn't carry much O&D traffic on that route, it's mostly connections. An 8:00am departure from DTW doesn't allow many connections from domestic flights, and an 8:00pm arrival in AMS doesn't allow many connections to other European destinations. Thus, it's all overnight.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 13 hours ago) and read 5816 times:

Simply put: connecting passengers. Majority of the passengers connect onwards from AMS. A large number of flight to Asia, Africa, the Middle East leave by early to late morning/afternoon. Arriving late in the evening in AMS will only leave passengers stranded at Schiphol.


The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineFlyingfool From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 438 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 5671 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
and an 8:00pm arrival in AMS doesn't allow many connections to other European destinations.

Are you sure? don't forget that KLM has changed it daily schedule for European traffic with effect of the current summer schedule and has put an extra block (6th) of departures at Schiphol airport.
Due to this extra block almost all late evening night stop traffic to European citys take place after 2000LT. If the NW daylight can arrive at arround 1915LT you have a wide choice of connecting flights to other European destinations:

2000 Warsaw
2005 Frankfurt
2005 Paris CDG (AF)
2015 Maastricht
2015 Berlin TXL
2015 Munster FMO
2015 London LHR
2015 Oslo
2015 Helsinki
2015 Riga
2015 Toulouse
2015 Rome FCO
2020 Milan MXP
2020 Sandefjord TRF
2020 Trondheim
2025 Geneva
2025 Vienna
2025 Bordeaux
2025 Cork (EI)
2025 Brussels
2030 Bucharest OTP
2030 Budapest (MA)
2035 Gothenburg
2035 Kristiansand
2035 Hanover
2035 Bremen
2035 Athens
2035 Marseille
2035 Nice
2035 Stavanger
2040 Dublin (EI)
2040 Venice
2040 Billund
2040 Lyon
2045 Dusseldorf
2045 Bangkok/Taipei
2045 Cologne
2045 Cairo
2045 Zurich
2045 Nurnberg
2050 Bologna
2050 Stuttgart
2050 Paris CDG (AF)
2050 Istanbul
2055 Bergen BGO
2055 Luxembourg
2055 Madrid
2055 Hamburg
2055 Barcelona
2100 Tel Aviv
2100 Kuala Lumpur/Jakarta
2100 Newcastle
2100 Stockholm ARN
2100 Leeds-Bradford
2100 Humberside
2105 Manchester
2105 Munich
2105 Nairobi (KQ)
2110 Lisbon
2110 Copenhagen
2115 Glasgow
2115 Norwich
2120 Singapore
2120 Birmingham
2120 Aberdeen
2140 Durham/Tees Valley
2145 Bristol
2150 Cardiff-Wales
2150 Edinburgh

A problem could be a delay...
If the DTW flight arrives late, most connections will be lost and passengers have to be put in hotels because of no available connections on the same day...

[Edited 2006-05-26 12:42:40]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 5584 times:

Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 5):
If the NW daylight can arrive at arround 1915LT

Doing so would require it to leave DTW at 525am (based on flight times similar to the other DTW-AMS flights). That's pretty damn early as far as I'm concerned. The earliest that flight could reasonably leave would be 7am, which would put it into AMS at 855pm. Allow 45 minutes for the connection, and that leaves these flights:

Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 5):
2140 Durham/Tees Valley
2145 Bristol
2150 Cardiff-Wales
2150 Edinburgh

Let's say the flight left at 6am (which would require the pax to check in no later than 4am, which borders on the inhumane). It would arrive at 755pm, and connections would be possible to these flights:

Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 5):
2040 Dublin (EI)
2040 Venice
2040 Billund
2040 Lyon
2045 Dusseldorf
2045 Bangkok/Taipei
2045 Cologne
2045 Cairo
2045 Zurich
2045 Nurnberg
2050 Bologna
2050 Stuttgart
2050 Paris CDG (AF)
2050 Istanbul
2055 Bergen BGO
2055 Luxembourg
2055 Madrid
2055 Hamburg
2055 Barcelona
2100 Tel Aviv
2100 Kuala Lumpur/Jakarta
2100 Newcastle
2100 Stockholm ARN
2100 Leeds-Bradford
2100 Humberside
2105 Manchester
2105 Munich
2105 Nairobi (KQ)
2110 Lisbon
2110 Copenhagen
2115 Glasgow
2115 Norwich
2120 Singapore
2120 Birmingham
2120 Aberdeen
2140 Durham/Tees Valley
2145 Bristol
2150 Cardiff-Wales
2150 Edinburgh

Not a bad selection, but remember that just as most of the passengers on NW's DTW-AMS flights aren't terminating in AMS, most of them aren't originating in DTW either. There has to be room for connections on both sides of the ocean, which is why a daytime flight won't work.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

Quoting Flyingfool (Reply 5):
Due to this extra block almost all late evening night stop traffic to European citys take place after 2000LT. If the NW daylight can arrive at arround 1915LT you have a wide choice of connecting flights to other European destinations



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Doing so would require it to leave DTW at 525am (based on flight times similar to the other DTW-AMS flights). That's pretty damn early as far as I'm concerned. The earliest that flight could reasonably leave would be 7am, which would put it into AMS at 855pm

Even an 1915LT arrival would be slightly too late, seeing as how KLM schedules its own last inbound longhaul traffic for arrival at 1845LT at the very latest:

KL742 from LIM at 1740
KL866 from ICN at 1815
KL804 from MNL at 1835
KL892 from CTU at 1845

Scheduling an 1845LT arrival into AMS would require a 0455am DTW departure when counting a 7.50h block time. I doubt very much that anyone would go for a flight like that, not to mention the lack of inbound connections at DTW.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 5544 times:
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Also the plane would then have to sit on the ground and thus earning no money! And by leaving DTW that early in the AM all the pax would have to be O/D no chance for connecting pax.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 5513 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):
Also the plane would then have to sit on the ground and thus earning no money! And by leaving DTW that early in the AM all the pax would have to be O/D no chance for connecting pax

There was a time when NW had a plane overnighting at AMS. I don't know whether that is still the case, though, and seeing the recent NW delays, including overnight delays, I don't believe that is still the case.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 5457 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):
Also the plane would then have to sit on the ground and thus earning no money!

That's the key. I'd bet that 80% of US-flag flights to Europe spend less than 3 hours on the ground at their destination.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 5451 times:
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Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
There was a time when NW had a plane overnighting at AMS.

I am not sure on this, could it be the plane they use for the AMS to India service!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineCgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 5389 times:

I know it's a bit off topic but I was surprised to see KLM gave up all its flight to DTW, MEM and MSP to NW. I use to fly to DTW quite a lot in mid-90s and always made sure I was on a KL machine. The service was simply better and the flight was usually a 747 and not an old rickety DC-10 from NW. Anyone know why KLstopped serving these destinations on its own?


A330 man.
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months ago) and read 5354 times:

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 12):
flight was usually a 747 and not an old rickety DC-10 from

KL ran both 767 and 747 out of DTW, NW also ran 744 to AMS until the 330's came on line, although most of the trips were indeed '10's.

NW/KL don't really care whose metal is used, as the share both the costs and revenues on the trans Atlantic ops.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months ago) and read 5354 times:
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Before 9/11, it was talked about. In a base meetting in August of 01, the President of inflight services, Hector Adler, did tell us that since the DTW-AMS route was running as full as it was, that the company was looking at possibly offering a morning AMS flight during the summer flying months in 2002 (if the traffic was still as brisk)while the 5 AMS flights were offered. The thought was to move NW40 from the 4:20pm departure time, to 9am, and upgrade NW54 a 744 to compensate for the loss of the early flight. The return flight would've left AMS around 7am and arrived at around 10am. Whether it would be flown by KLM or NW was never revealed. This, plus the idea of opening a FA crewbase in LAS, IAD, PHX and MIA were also looked at, but 9/11 happened and all of that was scuttled and never heard anything more about it.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 12):
know it's a bit off topic but I was surprised to see KLM gave up all its flight to DTW, MEM and MSP to NW.

We gave them IAD, and EWR in exchange for the MEM, and MSP flight. DTW was always a tradeoff uncompensated. They would usually operate AMS-DTW-AMS during the summer when the frequencies were upgraded to 5 daily's



Made from jets!
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4695 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
There was a time when NW had a plane overnighting at AMS.

As far as I'm aware they still have, and it's a backup.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineCgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 13):
NW/KL don't really care whose metal is used, as the share both the costs and revenues on the trans Atlantic op

Well, maybe NW/KL didn't care whose metal was used but I know I did! Also, KLM's lovely blue was always a nice change to NW's blah color scheme.



A330 man.
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 12):
I know it's a bit off topic but I was surprised to see KLM gave up all its flight to DTW, MEM and MSP to NW.

It makes more sense to have NW operate the rotations from its own hubs as it allows for greater operational freedom, and as such less operational irregularities resulting in better on time performance of the entire transatlantic operation.

The more non-hub flights NW operates the more vulnerable the entire system becomes to delays because there is normally no room for aircraft changes at non-hub stations and the technical facilities to deal with maintenance issues are limited.

As such, the current system, with NW plying all DTW, MSP and MEM frequencies makes a lot of sense. The only weaker points in the system are BOS and BOM (soon to be joined by EWR when NW takes over the flight), which are non-hub stations, but then AMS is important and flexible enough as a NW hub not to have delays on those routes ripple through the network.

The introduction of an all A330 operation at AMS will further improve operational stability. Note that SEA, although not a hub, is not necessary a weak link, as it is connected to both the AMS and NRT widebody hubs.


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