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Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?  
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2323 times:
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Although there are a lot of threads relating to Bermuda 2 I couldn't see the question I was looking for under them so here goes ....

Flights between the UK and US by UK and US carriers are governed by the Bermuda 2 agreement which , amongst other things , specifies that some destinations can be served from LON via LHR ( eg LAX , SFO , ORD etc ) but some can only be served from LGW ( eg ATL , IAH , DFW ect ) .

There are a number of airlines operating 5th freedom services between LON and US ( NZ / AI / KU - I think , not sure if LY still does or not )

so , my hypothetical question is :

are those rights governed by BII , or not . If not , could NZ for example choose to switch their LAX-LHR service to another airport such as DFW/ IAH / ATL etc from which neither UK nor US carriers can fly into LHR . Before anyone starts flaming me , I repeat this is hypothetical , I am not saying that they would or should ... just asking whether in theory they could

any of you BII experts out there know ??

( apologies in advance if this has been answered before )


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8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

BII did allow 5'th freedom rights for two U.S. flad carriers. At one time UA and TW had beyond flights with local rights just like in Japan. I think only they were allowed. I'm not 100% of fith freedom but I know I changed planes on UA to AMS out of Chicago about ten years ago.

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2262 times:
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Quoting ORDagent (Reply 1):
BII did allow 5'th freedom rights for two U.S. flad carriers. At one time UA and TW had beyond flights with local rights just like in Japan. I think only they were allowed. I'm not 100% of fith freedom but I know I changed planes on UA to AMS out of Chicago about ten years ago.

sorry , I guess my topic is a bit clumsily worded - I meant non-US/UK carriers operating 5th freedom flights between US-UK vv rather than US carriers with 5th freedom rights beyone UK



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User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26487 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
sorry , I guess my topic is a bit clumsily worded - I meant non-US/UK carriers operating 5th freedom flights between US-UK vv rather than US carriers with 5th freedom rights beyone UK

I got what you were saying. The 5th freedom rights of non-US/UK flag carriers are governed by the bilaterals those carriers have signed with the US and UK individually. For example, NZ has rather broad 5th freedom rights with both countries and can fly to LHR as long as it has the slots (which is why they used to fly to FRA as opposed to LHR from LAX). The case where this becomes the most interesting is with AC. Under the new US/Canada bilateral, the two countries have essentially open skies when it comes to flights to non-domestic points. Further, as a member of the Commonwealth, Canadian carriers, particularly Air Canada, enjoy special rights at LHR. What is really interesting and untested about that is that Air Canada can potentially get around the BII rules and use LHR slots to do US-LHR flights from non-LHR gateways



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User currently offlineCospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

?? So AC could operate SYD-LAX-LHR ???

User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Quoting Cospn (Reply 4):
?? So AC could operate SYD-LAX-LHR ???

Nope, but I would expect AC is thinking about YVR-JFK-LHR or something like that.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
Further, as a member of the Commonwealth, Canadian carriers, particularly Air Canada, enjoy special rights at LHR

Really? Care to provide more details, please?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
What is really interesting and untested about that is that Air Canada can potentially get around the BII rules and use LHR slots to do US-LHR flights from non-LHR gateways

Of course AC can get round BII, it does not apply to them!

Gemuser



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User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

Given that India now has a fairly liberal ASA with both the US and the UK, is it possible for AI to offer service to points other than JFK (AI 101/102 BOM-LHR-JFK) in the US. say a BOM-LHR-ATL or BOM-LHR-IAH sort of service?


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User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3231 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 7):
is it possible for AI to offer service to points other than JFK (AI 101/102 BOM-LHR-JFK) in the US. say a BOM-LHR-ATL or BOM-LHR-IAH sort of service?

Not very sure, but I think B2 basically sealed AI's fate at whetever it was already operating. I don't think new services are possible.



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