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Switching Runways At The Last Second?  
User currently offlineLH492 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 208 posts, RR: 11
Posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4830 times:

Hi,

I made an exchange year in Vancouver and since I love planes, I visited the airport nearly every weekend.
When sitting around, watching the planes come and go I saw something strange, a CX 747 was on final for the runway (I do not know which one) and like one minute before touchdown, the plane banked to the right and established for a landing on the parallel runway. I thought there might have been a problem with the original runway and that this would not be a normal procedure but during the following month I saw it many times again.
I am curious since I never saw this before (maybe because I do not live near an airport with a parallel runway system) but any info is appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
cheers,
Philipp


Carpe Diem, Seize The Day
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Quoting LH492 (Thread starter):
I am curious since I never saw this before (maybernbecause I do not live near an airport with a parallel runway system)rnbut any info is appreciated.

Not sure how you definern"last second". There are some airports where pilot approach a runwayrnand then do a sidestep to another runway. This doesn't really happen inrnthe last second but lets say 30s or a minute before touch down. In ZRH eg. flights approached RWY16 and then turned into RWY14 iso. This has been done a few times earlier but not anymore.

In case of an emergency or when there is a problem with the approached runway, the would in most cases, if not in all, do a go-around.



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineFreakyDeaky From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 132 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4753 times:

Mostly it's because the other runway came available for landing and it was closer to where they were going to park. Less taxiing.


"Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could."
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

At SLC I was getting ready to take off on 16L and a front passed and the wind changed direction, so hence the DL 752 had to make the long two mile taxi down to the other end to runway 34R. It added 20 minutes to the 4 hours of flight time to ATL.


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineTWAtwaTWA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4670 times:

Quoting LH492 (Thread starter):
When sitting around, watching the planes come and go I saw something strange, a CX 747 was on final for the runway (I do not know which one) and like one minute before touchdown, the plane banked to the right and established for a landing on the parallel runway.

You bring up a very interesting topic.

One week ago, I was on board an AA 737-800 from YYZ on final for LAX, approaching (westbound) the south end of the airport. There are two runways that are parallel on the south side: 7R/25L and 7L/25R. About 30 sec before touch down, there was a wide bank right and then left, and to me it seemed like we switched from 7R/25L to 7L/25R at "the last second".

I know that at LAX the 7R/25L and 7L/25R runway arrangement has been subject to some debate, and there are plans to relocate the runway 55 feet south, to improve safety, and to finalize preparations for the A380.
http://www.lawa.org/news/newsDisplay.cfm?newsID=774



We're your kind of airline. Uh, I mean, We *were* your kind of airline.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12138 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

Actually, moving LAX 7R/25L 55' south is not because of the A-380. The FAA has been concerned about the south side runway spacing at LAX for about 30 years now. Parellel runways in the US require 1200' spacing (centerline to centerline) between the runways. LAX has 1145' spacing on the south runway complex, so the "relocating" is really required. LAX was allowed to keep the present arrangement, with a wavier from the FAA, until it was time to replace the runway. That is what they are really doing, they are replaceing it with a new runway, that will be properly aligned.

User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

To me it sounds like a side-step approach clearance. I remember at APA a while back, runway 35R was out of service and Denver Approach was clearing the aircraft for the ILS 35R, side-step 35L. Which means you fly the ILS and then switch to the other runway and land on it. I don't have time now, but check NOTAMS for the airport.

User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6822 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Parellel runways in the US require 1200' spacing (centerline to centerline) between the runways. LAX has 1145' spacing on the south runway complex,

Where'd you hear 1145 ft? The runway lat-lons at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov and http://www.airnav.com imply spacing of less than 750 ft, and as I recall the USGS map bears that out.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6822 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

As for Vancouver, it seems 26R and 26L are 5800+ feet apart at their east ends, and 5600+ at the west ends. Wonder how close you can be and still do that "sidestep"?

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4350 times:

SFO is notorious for switching between 28R to 28L. No need to cross 28L then. Often times it's the UA pilots that request this because obviously they are the most familiar.

User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

yes, such a maneuver is everything but uncommon. once happened to me while i had the chance to stay with the flight deck crew (when that was still permissible). beautiful approach into NCE (approaching NCE is a treat)), switching the runways like 30 sec or so before touchdown, awesome!


If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2435 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

See it at EWR all the time too. 22R / 4L closer to the terminals.


Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineChristao17 From Thailand, joined Apr 2005, 940 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4036 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 9):
SFO is notorious for switching between 28R to 28L. No need to cross 28L then. Often times it's the UA pilots that request this because obviously they are the most familiar.

Very common at SFO as the runways are quite close together so it is easy to do. The inboard runway (28L) is usually used for depatures but if there is nobody departing the pilot might request to switch. This has happened to me many times there as well as from time to time in PHX and LAX.

If I'm not mistaken, if it is "last minute" the request will only be granted if the pilot is flying a visual approach.



Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2703 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

This happened to me on a NW DC-9 on approach to MDW. Just before landing we banked hard to the right, flew by the airport, then banked hard left to line up with a runway (no parellel runways at MDW) just before landing. It scared the sh_t out of me. I asked the pilot about it and he said another plane had been accidentally cleared to take off on the same runway right before he landed, he didn't seem happy about it. I don't know how low we were, but it was so low you could read the billboards on the ground.

User currently offlineDC10rules From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 13):
(no parellel runways at MDW

MDW runways 13/31 L/C/R and 4/22 L/R


User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1807 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

These are the things that show you how skillful the pilots really are.


rolf
User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

Quoting Timz (Reply 8):
Wonder how close you can be and still do
that "sidestep"?

I am looking all over the 7110.65, but so far, I cannot find anything that tells me the procedures. However, after a little internet search, I found this.

Side Step-
A. Visual maneuver at the completion of an instrument approach which allows straight-in landing minimums on a parallel runway not more than 1200 feet to either side of the approach runway.
B. Pilot should execute sidestep maneuver as soon as possible after the runway or runway environment is in sight.

http://www.aviation.uiuc.edu/main/un...k/AVI130/BillJonesWeb/apptype.html

Quoting United787 (Reply 13):
(no parellel runways at MDW)

Really? I must be a little crazy, because last time I checked, every runway had a parallel...
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00081AD.PDF


User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1807 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

Quoting Timz (Reply 7):

Where'd you hear 1145 ft? The runway lat-lons at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov and http://www.airnav.com imply spacing of less than 750 ft, and as I recall the USGS map bears that out.

He's saying centerline to centerline spacing. Maybe your numbers are for the unused space between the runways only.



rolf
User currently offlineFlightShadow From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 966 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

I see this happen once every few times I'm up at SLC, something will be coming in for 34L and it'll suddenly hop onto 34R's approach path - usually no more than a minute out, sometimes less. It is very cool to see a plane bug out and head for a different approach so close in. My guess would be either FOD or someone taking too long to get off the runway (in effect, also FOD  biggrin  )


"When the tide goes out, you can tell who was skinnydipping."
User currently offlineEham From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

It's a quite common procedure @ Amsterdam Schiphol, where (mostly) smaller airplanes brake off to rwy 24 for landing when following the ILS for rwy 27.

User currently offlineDarrenthe747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

in my 3 years stationed at EDDF in the Air Force, I witnessed probably 10 or so total "side-steps." some would happen indeed very close to the runways, no more htan 60 seconds from touchdown, others might happen a bit further out. but it was quite exhilerating watching a 747 do a sidestep 60 seconds from touchdown.

User currently offlineJspitfire From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 308 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

Aircraft do sidestep to the other runway fairly often at YVR. At YVR the north runway is usually used for arrivals, and the South runway for departures. So my guess would be that they line the aircraft up for the north runway (26R), and then if there is a break in departures on the south runway (26L), then they can sidestep the aircraft over so that they have a shorter taxi distance.

Jason


User currently offlineMorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

Quoting Eham (Reply 19):
It's a quite common procedure @ Amsterdam Schiphol, where (mostly) smaller airplanes brake off to rwy 24 for landing when following the ILS for rwy 27.

Or offcourse the better work, the cargo planes for both Martinair and KLM cargo ramps.
You can normally tell from the hight they approach rwy 27. Planes that do the brakeoff, are comming in a little higher then a normal ILS rwy 27 approach.

Great to watch!



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6822 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 17):
Quoting Timz (Reply 7):

Where'd you hear 1145 ft? The runway lat-lons at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov and http://www.airnav.com imply spacing of less than 750 ft, and as I recall the USGS map bears that out.


He's saying centerline to centerline spacing.

Yup, he probably is. But the actual centerline spacing is a bit less than 750 ft.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

I was listening to UA ch. 9 on an evening approach to LAX and a couple of minutes before landing, the pilot requested switching to the (departure) right runway. It sounded like this was because we were in a heavy and it would allow the other UA planes behind us to land sooner.

25 Ktachiya : I spot at YVR all the time with two scanners in my hand so I can share a few things that I know of when side-stepping there. If that CX bird was on ap
26 SCCutler : Side-steps are, of course, only allowable in visual conditions, and are in most circumstances non-events. They may be done to accommodate trailing tra
27 Timz : As somebody pointed out in the other thread, EWR has side-step minimums on the chart for the ILS to 4R. It was news to me, but it seems that's not un
28 Olympus69 : I saw this happen at YYZ a couple of weeks ago, for an unusual reason. A Dash 8 was on short final for 33L with a 'heavy' behind him. 33R was being us
29 Thegooddoctor : Happens every day at PHX between 25 L/R and 7 L/R. Frequently this will be part of the normal approach proceedure (Ie, line up for XXX and side step t
30 Flyabunch : There is a variation on this idea that has taken place at some airports. I am familiar with Southwest getting their hands slapped at TPA for lining up
31 Phelpsie87 : Your exactly right. Often, you will hear something like, "XXX123 Cleared ILS Runway 25R Approach, side step runway 25L, contact tower xxx.xx at the o
32 Post contains links Chase : Yes, but from http://www.faa.gov/ATS/asc/publications/95_ACE/Chap_03.pdf: Current procedures consider parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 f
33 Symphonik : Yeah, I hear this a fair amount on Channel 9 when I'm inbound to SFO.
34 Post contains links Phelpsie87 : " target=_blank>http://www.faa.gov/ATS/asc/publicati....pdf: Not working for me, but that's beside the point. We are talking about the "side-step" man
35 Timz : You're saying ATC cleared Southwest flights for the approach to the west runway and they ignored him, deciding they liked the east runway better? And
36 Flyabunch : I do not remember the specifics of how it worked, but my impression was that they would drift over that way on approach and if they didn't get notice
37 Post contains links Flyabunch : I found the article in the St. Petersburg Times archives. Here is the link and selected text. I had the details wrong in the previous post. It seems t
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