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Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value  
User currently offlineArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

If I'm reading this report correctly, (slides 18-19) European short haul unit costs are more than double US costs. 15.54 US cents per ASK versus 7 cents. Converting 1 Euro to $1.274 . (Average of 3 largest carriers in each region)

Very surprising. I knew there was a gap, didn't expect such a large one.


http://www.iata.org/NR/rdonlyres/4CC...stry_Outlook_Presenation_Mar06.pdf

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

What makes you say Euro short haul flights are quality? I'm not expert as I've only flown a few "domestic" Euro flights (ZRH-GVA, NCE-BRU, ZRH-LHR), but found them no better than US domestic flights.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

I'm just going by what the Europeans told me here...LOL.

User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3635 times:

I don't have many reference points either, but what I have seen so far:

Southwest: Lots of leg room + Peanuts

Luftansa (737-300 ) : Least amount of leg room I have ever seen on any airline + stale sandwich.

If I'm hungry, I'd take the Luftansa. Luftansa FA are also very professional, so if you don't like singing in the aisle I guess that is a plus, but I kind of like the San Diego / Southwest attitude of WN, reminds me of being on a beach somewhere.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4659 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Depends... if you look at European seating plans, a lot of the aircraft is Business Class. They tend to sell a lot larger amount of Business Class seats than other airlines. That said, the service is generally superb. They tailor to their market. While there is a discount airline trend in Europe, a lot of people pay a premium and the airlines take advantage of that.


I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3544 times:

Service on short haul is of little importance. How long do you get to experience it: 45min to 3hrs-ish at cruising altitude? Having said that, just did CDG-Berlin return in C class and Venice-CDG in Y on AF and service on both was very professional. Same goes for BA (once in the air; don't get me started on BA at CDG).

Service REALLY matters on very long haul. For me that's 8 to 24hrs or more. Perhaps some of you only do short haul. In that case, I would say price and convenience of schedule are the most important (understanding that RyanAir and their likes are not to be considered - false economy!).

In regard to long haul, US airlines are not considered top 20 by many traveller: Asian, Australian, Middle-Eastern and European airlines just do it so much better.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 4):
Depends... if you look at European seating plans, a lot of the aircraft is Business Class.

That is a good point and one which U.S. airlines have yet to discover. Charge Business Class fares for Economy Size seats.


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

If you're talking LCC's, I'd strongly prefer WN, F9, or B6 over U2, FR, AK and the like. Anybody else agree?


Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineBestpilot From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

The LCC idea was invented in the United States and like everything invented here, it was taken and imitated overseas.

User currently offlineKoper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Not everything has been invented in the USA. For sure the USA has given the world a lot in the last century.. but i don't think Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo, Voltaire, Guglielmo Marconi or others were Americans.

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
If you're talking LCC's, I'd strongly prefer WN, F9, or B6 over U2, FR, AK and the like. Anybody else agree?

Yes but you would have to compare them on prices. Ive never seen any a US airline offer fares as low as 0.01 like Ryanair frequently does. Ryanair actually gives away free seats in some cases. I have had dreadful experiences more than once on AirTran for instance.


User currently offlineBestpilot From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Quoting Koper (Reply 9):
Not everything has been invented in the USA.

If you read my post carefully, you will notice that I did not suggest that everything was invented in the USA. Hell, how could that be possible? The USA has only been around a couple centuries!

Sorry, EI321, but I'm going to pick you apart. Here we go:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
Yes but you would have to compare them on prices. Ive never seen any a US airline offer fares as low as 0.01 like Ryanair frequently does.



0.01 Euro, eh? Not with all the fees that Ryanair likes to add. You end up paying 30 or 40 euro. Still, to be fair, cheap fares. WN doesn't offer fares that low anymore... 39 bucks one way used to be the craze in the mid-90's. No more. Fare-wise, FR beats any US LCC.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
Ryanair actually gives away free seats in some cases.

In some cases, so does WN, F9, UA, US, AA, NW, DL...

Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
I have had dreadful experiences more than once on AirTran for instance.

For instance, what? The fact that you had a "dreadful experience more than once on AirTran" is an example of what? If you meant to just include that piece of trivia, then that's nice to know. Anecdotal evidence about bad trips/poor service/total travel terror exists about any airline.


User currently offlineHBJZA From Switzerland, joined Jan 2006, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

The difference is that in the US you could fly up to 6 hours (or even more) and still be flying domestic. In Europe each country has its own domestic market and all the rest are international flights. I guess US airlines have set a standard of service for the length of a flight lets say for example : why would they make a different service on a JFK-HNL (approx. 8 hours ?) than on a JFK-ZRH (approx 7 hours ?). If you fly out of Europe for more than 6 hours, you'll sure be out of the continent.....So it's easier for european airlines to set better service for long haul.

User currently offlinePhatty3374 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

I happen to think that US domestic is in many cases better (in terms of comfort) than Intra-EU flights. I think that categorizing European as "quality" and American as "value" is not correct. Just compare United to Air France. On United's narrowbody fleet (737's and A32x's, not regionals) there is always a Business and/or First section with actual business class seats, whereas on Air France's narrowbody fleet, there is a section sold as "business," but the seats are simply economy seats with a blocked off center seat.

Food United vs. Air France is another issue! but I believe that is more of a cultural difference than anything.

I agree with HBJZA in that it is slightly easier for European carriers to set better longhaul service, but that still doesn't mean that American First/Business has to be the way that it is now! When all of the majors get out of the bankruptcy issue (hopefully), I think that Americans will begin to see things like AVOD in all classes and eventually a better First/Business class product.

Regards,

Tom


User currently offlineWorkhorse From France, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Well, I cannot boast billions of miles on different carriers all over the world, but from my experience as a moderate US and European Y traveller I may say the following:

1) US legacies don't stand near European legacies be it on domestic or international. On AF, even for a ORY-MPL, which is roughly a 1 hour flight, I get a free drink, a free newspaper and, some times of the day, a free sandwich. On US legacies you have to pay for a damn sandwich on a 5 hour flight!

Same for transatlantic: free booze and possibility at any time to walk to the rear of the aircraft to have a drink and a chat with FAs on AF. On US legacies, pay for the booze, don't get up unless it's to go to WC... Once on a US flight (before the HP merger), my mother asked for a blanket, they said "there's no more left" and didn't care. On AF, they would at least make excuses and probably try do do something.

2) Concerning LCCs, it's a whole different story. Compare B6 with FR: it's another world.

To resume this in one line, travel with legacies in Europe, with LCC's in the US and with European carriers on transatlantic.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

ACMI + Fuel, Infrastructure is what makes the difference. Then don't forget that employees in Europe are much more expensive to maintain than in the USA, as well as other miscellaneous costs should tend to be significantly higher in Europe. It's not so much the service IMHO.

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2909 times:

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 14):
Same for transatlantic: free booze and possibility at any time to walk to the rear of the aircraft to have a drink and a chat with FAs on AF

That's really strange, because I've experienced only the opposite. Especially from Russians, including Aeroflot and DL. In fact, on my last flight to Moscow, I was happily talking to an American FA on Delta, and we were having a great conversation, then came the Russian FA working for DL, and asked me to go take my seat.

Usually I fly with NW though, and I have to say, that they have some of the best FA's. Maybe not every FA on every flight, but on int. travelling, NW seems to set itself apart from the others, especially with their new A330 product. I've even had europeans who fly with NW be really surprised with their service. In fact, meals are equally good whether it be on Air France or NW in economy. First is slightly different. The food on a J fare in First class on AF I will agree is better, but the difference isn't huge.

I often have to fly SVO-AMS (KL) or SVO-CDG (AF) and I find that thier service is really no better that what you get on us airlines. The seats are the same, the only difference is that you get fed, (and better since the flight is the longest within Europe) Also, SU offers superior service than AF, or KL because they really do offer a business class, and economy class has better room than their competitors.

In fact, now that SU is in Skyteam, I prefer to fly with them then any other airline. I can even get access to their club within the airport, and I'm only silver with NW.

The one thing that I really don't like about US airlines, is that on longer flights, transUS, you don't get fed, but you can purchase a snack. In fact, I don't mind the fact that you have to purchase it, because it isn't ridiculously expensive, but it's the fact that there isn't a real meal served. Sure, for shorter flights, the snack box is okay, but for longer ones, they should offer some type of meal service, even if you have to pay for it.

I know that you can always purchase something at the airport, but I can't predict hunger all the time, but I don't like to eat when I'm not hungry, so I don't know whether I'll be hungry or not during the flight.

People eat on board because a) it takes up time, which otherwise would have spent daydreaming or looking at the window. In fact, eating makes the time pass, and that's why some people eat during flight, even if they aren't hungry. b) why pass up free food? Americans will eat if it's given to them. I think that meals should be offered only during meal times. For instance, no meal on red eyes.



LH 442
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
What makes you say Euro short haul flights are quality? I'm not expert as I've only flown a few "domestic" Euro flights (ZRH-GVA, NCE-BRU, ZRH-LHR), but found them no better than US domestic flights.

Let me take yours above and find a US comparison: PDX-SEA, MIA-MSY, DTW-IAD

Do you still think the same way ? None of these flights serve food, all would likely charge for a film, fly on an aging plane.

Quoting Bestpilot (Reply 8):
The LCC idea was invented in the United States and like everything invented here, it was taken and imitated overseas.

maybe that should read

Quoting Bestpilot (Reply 8):
The LCC idea was invented in the United States and like everything

commercially successful

Quoting Bestpilot (Reply 8):
invented here, it was taken and imitated overseas.

Is this not the same in reverse.. whats successfully invented in Europe is copied overseas



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Ive flown through 40 states in the US, and similar 20+ countries in Europe, 7+ Countries in Asia and Australia, on over 700 hundred flights...
inc cross the pacific 7 times, atlantic 40+ times

In my opinion:

For short haul:

Quality
--------
LCC are better in the US (WN..daddy of them all, Jet blue, Aloha..)
Majors are better in Europe (LH, BA, SK, MA..)

Cost
-----
LCC are cheaper in Europe (Nothing beats Ryanair, Wizz, Air Berlin)
Majors are cheaper in the US (UA, AA, NW, DL all offer amazing seat/mile deals)

For Long(er) Haul*:

*= LCC dont do long haul, so Longer haul

Quality
--------

LCC are better in the US (Jetblue , Westjet...)
Majors are far and above better from Asia (SQ, JAL, ANA, CX, TG...)

Cost
-----
LCC are Cheaper in Europe (RyanAir, Wizzair, Germanwings, AirBerlin)
Majors are cheaper in the US (UA, AA, NW, DL )



In My opinion:


LCC in Europe is cheaper but not as good Quality.. Think "campsite"
LCC in N.America is a bit more expensive but better quality "Comfort Inn"
LCC in Asia is cheaper and less quality "back pack hostel"
LCC in Australia is like going to the Supermarket followed by a round in the pub before your flight. (Think "Holiday Inn Express")

Majors in Europe are more expensive, but offer more inflight "add ons" (newspapers, inflight toys (Postcards, tings for kids etc , better meals etc) and give off a younger fashion concious image... think of "Sheraton/Hilton/Hyatt"


Majors in N.America are cheaper, more mature, and things are a bit more dated. Food is somewhat average, and very few "extras"... "Think Jethro's family motel last refurbished 1963"


Majors in Asia are quite expensive compared to Europe and Asia, however the sense of precision to detail and sense of perfection are much much more obvious, and quality is seen to be of major importance. All the extras are present making a very pleasant experience....think "Peninsula, HK, Raffles SG, Park Lane LDN, Waldorf NY



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineWorkhorse From France, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 16):
That's really strange, because I've experienced only the opposite. Especially from Russians, including Aeroflot and DL. In fact, on my last flight to Moscow, I was happily talking to an American FA on Delta, and we were having a great conversation, then came the Russian FA working for DL, and asked me to go take my seat.

Well, I agree, Delta FA's are usually cool, but still, there seems to be some sort of unwritten rule (or maybe it's written somewhere actually?) on US majors : "passengers should sit down and not to move". Don't know, maybe it's a 9/11 thing, but on a 7+ hour flight I find kind of rude.

Never had a bad experience with AF, KL, LX... though I guess it may happen, but never for me.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 16):
I often have to fly SVO-AMS (KL) or SVO-CDG (AF) and I find that thier service is really no better that what you get on us airlines.

I beg to differ here. Free (and better) food, free drinks and an overall impression to be cared for. You don't get that on US domestic. Not that paying for glass of wine will ruin my budget, but it's more a psychological thing, it's easier to feel like a welcomed guest on board when you're not asked to pay for something every 5 minutes...

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 16):

In fact, now that SU is in Skyteam, I prefer to fly with them then any other airline. I can even get access to their club within the airport, and I'm only silver with NW.

Never flown with SU on longhaul, but on medium and short haul, I agree, they're really good. If only they were based in DME instead of SVO...  Smile


User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting Koper (Reply 9):
i don't think Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo, Voltaire, Guglielmo Marconi or others were Americans.

Marconi did his work here in the States. Leonardo, well, he wasn't even from this planet. There is good reason to believe that the Roswell flying saucer was actually diverted here to get him home, they just got side tracked on Rigel for a few extra years, then males being males everywhere, never asked proper directions to get to Earth. As to the others, no question, they weren't American, but their work is not exactly contemporary either.

Back on tract, other than Continental, if you go long distance, fly Asian or European airlines. If you are on short haul, why waste extra money for the same peanuts, cramped seats, and lost luggage?



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 20):
if you go long distance, fly Asian or European airlines. If you are on short haul, why waste extra money for the same peanuts, cramped seats, and lost luggage?

Correct.

But see my slightly longer list of prefered carrier's regions (reply 5).



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineBoeingguy1 From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 415 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2619 times:

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 19):
Free (and better) food

Name one American carrier that charges for food on a trans-atlantic flight.



Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
User currently offlineWorkhorse From France, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2571 times:

Quoting Boeingguy1 (Reply 22):
Name one American carrier that charges for food on a trans-atlantic flight.

No, on transatlantic, they don't, they charge for alcohol only.  Smile Since Hjulicher talked about SVO-AMS and SVO-CDG I thought it was clear that I talked about US domestic (it's more fair to compare such flights with US domestic as they're 3-4 hours only). Should have been more precise, I guess.

BTW, here in Europe, LX tried some time ago to charge for food and drinks on intra-european flights, they have quickly stopped that! They must have understood that this little cost-saving isn't worth pissing of their loyal customers.  Smile


User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2554 times:

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 23):
No, on transatlantic, they don't, they charge for alcohol only. Smile

When you're paying $602 to fly BOS-SNN, what do you expect? I have flown for as little as $524.78 from BOS-LHR, that's not normal! Peoples pay cheap fares and expect quality service, if I were paying $750-$800 then I would free booze, amenity kits and all the extras, but I'm not.

Matt


25 Workhorse : I have flown for comparable prices on AF, KL and LX and got quality service, free booze, amenity kits and all the extras. And notice that they fly fu
26 JJJ : That hasn't stopped the main 3 Spanish carriers (IB, UX, JK) from charging for food on intra-european flights. Funny thing is you actually get an imp
27 OzGlobal : I've flown CDG-JFK return for 400 euro on AF in 2003. Got free Champagne and good food in Y as well as good IFE and service. Why is there alway an ex
28 Hjulicher : Can I please note that the cost of living in Europe is much higher there than in the US. I think that this has something to do with things. As Europea
29 Checo77 : So are you saying that for example EWR-AMS or JFK-AMS is shorthaul?? I flew it and i was 7hrs 30min........ Adam
30 OzGlobal : No. As is said, VERY long haul is when service really matters and by that I mean 8 to 24+ hrs. Doesn't imply 7:30 is short haul.
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