Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Boeing's Bair: Talks With QR Continue About 787  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6785 times:

The uncertainty over Airbus's plans is not materially altering the competition between the 787 and A350, Bair says. Airlines aren't holding off committing to the 787 because of Airbus's indecision. Rather, the market is being driven by the bottleneck in slot availability for the 787, whose delivery positions are essentially sold out until mid-2011.

Still, Airbus is being hammered. Qatar Airways, which had committed to 60 A350s, expressed unhappiness about the design delays and is pressing to see a finalized version. Bair says talks with the carrier are continuing and could eventually lead to the airline opting for a mix of 787-9s and -10s.


Strange times indeed if this "domino" ultimately falls in Boeing's favor.

http://www.awstonline.com/avnow/news...t_story.jsp?id=news/aw052906p3.xml

[Edited 2006-05-29 08:17:34]

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6533 times:

I'm surprised this didn't warrant a separate article instead of being buried in the 787-9 article. This is the first confirmation that I've seen in print that QR was talking to Boeing about the 787; we all know about the 777/A340 situation. Airbus simply cannot afford to lose its biggest "customer" to date for the A350, regardless of the version. Personally, I think AAB will N-E-V-E-R order Boeing, but who knows?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6485 times:

I thought that QR were not planning on getting A350s until 2010? Or had they specified a date?

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Airlines aren't holding off committing to the 787 because of Airbus's indecision

Then why have SQ and EK held off deciding. Havent QR stated they they are not signing with Airbus until the design is clarified?


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
I thought that QR were not planning on getting A350s until 2010? Or had they specified a date?

IMO, this is the critical factor. QR wants the aircraft in 2010; Boeing can't help them there. WRT SQ, I think the "new and improved" all new A350/A370 has at least given them pause. EK...I can't even begin to guess!



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently onlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1851 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6435 times:

I think this June (summer) will be e decisive time for Airbus to announce its intentions in the A350 program during the Farnborough Air Show. The ball is now clearly in Airbus's court.

Yes, QR stated that it cannot purchase an aircraft that it knows nothing/very little about--possibly hinting that a change is viable and probable. However, shifting to Boeing will most definetly be a huge change and for both Qatar Airways and Airbus. There is no doubt that Airbus can produce an effective A350, but the fear factor here is time. Is QR willing to wait the extra time for the "new A350" or will they opt for Boeing instead? Even this totally "new A350" is just mere speculation and not definite. How will QR's desicion affect its growth plans and aircraft pricings? All these questions can be answered correctly after QR announces its plans; which in turn can be announced after Airbus explains its A350 plans.



لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6418 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
I'm surprised this didn't warrant a separate article instead of being buried in the 787-9 article.

Maybe because the article does not contain anything new really?

Manufacturers talk to ALL airlines which could potentially be interested in their products on a continuous basis, so why would a 5 star airline like QR be an exception to this? Because they have previously opted for the A350? With the A350 evolving into a 777 successor, maybe the 787 and A350 could suit well along side of each other rather than against each other?

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Bair says talks with the carrier are continuing and could eventually lead to the airline opting for a mix of 787-9s and -10s.

Probably correct and the same can be said of the A350 and every airline which received the sales brochure...

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
This is the first confirmation that I've seen in print that QR was talking to Boeing about the 787

Didn't QR hold deposits on slots for the 787 at some stage?

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Airlines aren't holding off committing to the 787 because of Airbus' indecision.

I suppose Mr Bair is pushed into saying this, because as EI321 has already said, that is just NOT true: EK and most prominently SQ are openly holding of on committing to the 787 before they have seen the final A350 proposal.


User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6403 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Havent QR stated they they are not signing with Airbus until the design is clarified?

Forgive me , I'm not sure if I understand your question exactly . But , I beleive QR was one of the 1st airlines to buy the A350 !?

Quoting Aviationweek:
Still, Airbus is being hammered. Qatar Airways, which had committed to 60 A350s, expressed unhappiness about the design delays and is pressing to see a finalized version.

Halibut


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6360 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 6):
But , I beleive QR was one of the 1st airlines to buy the A350 !?

No they did not buy the A350. They made a commitment to buy them, but untill today it has remained a commitment. I'm surprised you've asked that question, given you're recent (wrong) assumptions about other members trying present commitments as firm orders.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
QR wants the aircraft in 2010; Boeing can't help them there.

Neither can Airbus.

Question; Anyone knows untill when QR expects to take delivery of these 60 A350's, if they firm up the order?

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
I thought that QR were not planning on getting A350s until 2010? Or had they specified a date?

That's correct. IIRC, they also said something along the lines that they could handle a delay up to 18 months.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
Manufacturers talk to ALL airlines which could potentially be interested in their products on a continuous basis,

That's absolutely correct. I've the impression that lately Boeing has been playing this 'interest' out to the press far too often, especially in regards to the 748i.

Boeing might just be scaring potential buyers into placing their order now, before QR takes 60 slots, regardeless if there's any truth in this or not.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
No they did not buy the A350. They made a commitment to buy them, but untill today it has remained a commitment. I'm surprised you've asked that question, given you're recent (wrong) assumptions about other members trying present commitments as firm orders.

Manni Manni Manni ,
I see we took our happy pill today !  biggrin 

Manni you stated yourself that you counted both !

Quoting Manni from Boeing Close To Breakeven On 787 thread :
[quote=Manni-:
Quoting Manni (Reply 10):

If you'd like to count firm orders only, that's up to you. Meanwhile, I count both firm and commitments, announced by Airbus. Which at this stage excludes the Air Madrid order and those of Aeroflot

Not to start a war here . However , the way in which Airbus conducts or count there Firm orders/commitments is rather odd .

Manni,
Perhaps you can enlighten us . We can use your expertise on another thread !


Boeing Tops Airbus In 2005 Sales-Due 2 Dead A350! (by Halibut May 29 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks in advance .

Halibut


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 8):
Boeing Tops Airbus In 2005 Sales-Due 2 Dead A350! (by Halibut May 29 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Has that thread been deleted??? I cant access it.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 8):
Manni,
Perhaps you can enlighten us . We can use your expertise on another thread !

The post does not exist. I suppose I didn't miss to much there. Good to see the real rubbish being weeded out at airliners.net

Quoting Halibut (Reply 8):
Manni you stated yourself that you counted both !


Sure you quoting me. Firm and commitments. I never called commitments firm. I just used the objective name 'orders' without the 'firm' or 'commitment'. Sort of like Boeing seems to use it when its suits them...

"Boeing's 787 Dreamliner has won nearly 400 orders from airlines before its planned entry into service in 2008, he said during his presentation at the convention.
"And we are now almost at break even," said Walters"



I've pointed that out to you before, but you remained silent...



Quoting Halibut (Reply 53):

On the Aeroflot thread you were attempting to combine both firm orders & firm order commitments .

I wasn't attemting anything. I did not mention firm orders and did not mention commitments. I put them all under the term 'orders', without intention of harming or bending the truth. Little did I know that this would wake up the crying crowd at airliners.net, but it's been noted and I will be more cautious. No surprise, considering the amount of people that wetted their diapers over it, that post dissapeard nearly as soon as I could write it (reason was not given in the email that came with it). Curiously enough, the "firm orders that need to be signed" post, is still here. Even more strange is that my first post in this thread has been deleted, while I pointed out factual incorrect information in a previous post... Go figure.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 53):
If Boeing were to pull the old combining of the firm orders with firm order commitments stunt , I wouldn't go for it nor would I beleive or promote it .

From the article which is linked in the thread starters post.

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Boeing's 787 Dreamliner has won nearly 400 orders f

400 orders? I dont doubt that this spokesman had the intention to bend the truth, however 350 orders is not nearly 400 orders. Or could it be that he just used the term "orders", in order to combine firm and commitment? Exactely how I did in the Aeroflot thread.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 8):
Manni Manni Manni ,
I see we took our happy pill today !

Is it really necessary to throw in this nonsense, or a variation of it, each time you disagree with someone. It doesn't impress me, ( or perhaps its the occasional teenage lurker you might try to impress ), and it certainly does not make your case any stronger. With or without smily.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 6):
Forgive me , I'm not sure if I understand your question exactly . But , I beleive QR was one of the 1st airlines to buy the A350 !?

Here goes the big fish dangling the bait ....

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
No they did not buy the A350. They made a commitment to buy them, but untill today it has remained a commitment. I'm surprised you've asked that question, given you're recent (wrong) assumptions about other members trying present commitments as firm orders.

And he takes it!


I thought fish were supposed to take the bait and get hooked, not the other way around.  Big grin



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
IMO, this is the critical factor. QR wants the aircraft in 2010; Boeing can't help them there.

Unless Boeing finally decides to go ahead with a second production line. And with the potential of large orders by EK, SQ and now QR, I'd say it is not that unlikely that Boeing will go ahead.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
EK...I can't even begin to guess!

Come on, we all know that EK will order 150 787s to operate alongside 150 A350/370  Wink .


User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 11):
Here goes the big fish dangling the bait ....



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 11):
And he takes it!

 blush 

Manni,
Accourding to Qatar airlines they were launch customers of the A350 !

Are you saying that Qatar airlines was a " Committed but not Firm Launch Customer " for the A350 ?

 boggled 

Quoting EI321 (Reply 9):
Has that thread been deleted??? I cant access it.

Yes ,
It was deleted !

However , since this thread is discussing the Qatar - A350 order . The same question could be raised !


How can Airbus count airplane orders , with an aeroplane that never existed !!!

Hmm

 scratchchin 


http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/05/24/100bus_corliss001.cfm

Quoting Bryan Corliss
Herald columnist
:
Published: Wednesday, May 24, 2006

Airbus: You've got big trouble
Boeing's rival is having a tough time designing its 787 competitor, making A350 launch customer Qatar Airlines "very unhappy."

But the news that Airbus is going back to the computer-assisted drafting software on the A350 is creating a stir with the one customer that's already really interested in the jet - Qatar Airways.

"We are launch customer for an aircraft that, other than its model number, does not now exist," the airline's chief executive, Akbar Al-Baker, told Flight International. "Qatar Airways is very unhappy about this."


Halibut


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1718 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):
How can Airbus count airplane orders , with an aeroplane that never existed !!!

It did exist Halibut. Customers were ordering something in good faith. Those were legitimate orders at the time. Obviously Airbus cannot count "new orders" for those customers if they decide to go with the new A350, and they will have to subtract net orders for those who choose to cancel, but all works out in the end.

Back on topic, the QR order is really the cornerstone for the A350 program. It seems very likely that they will stick with the A350 once Airbus figures out what they're doing.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 14):
It did exist Halibut. Customers were ordering something in good faith

I think the term people are looking for here is vaporware. Of course it's more common in the computer industry.



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6031 times:

With all these carriers saying they are holding off due to 787 slots are all booked until 2011 why doesn't Boeing open a second line? Also where is the SQ order?


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31011 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5912 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
With the A350 evolving into a 777 successor, maybe the 787 and A350 could suit well along side of each other rather than against each other?

Quite possibly. I do not know which version(s) of the A350MkIV QR wanted, but if some of them were smaller then what the smallest member of A350MkV family entails, and they are afraid of using A330s against 787-operating competitors, they may very well consider an order for some 787-8s to be appropriate, while concentating on larger A350MkV models to handle their higher traffic volumes.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
Didn't QR hold deposits on slots for the 787 at some stage?

I've heard upwards of 60 many, many times (usually in conjunction with the QF order), but I have also heard only a handful of them (like 8?) were actual paid deposits (and those were fullt refundable).


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5830 times:

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 16):
With all these carriers saying they are holding off due to 787 slots are all booked until 2011 why doesn't Boeing open a second line?

To build an airplane, you need more than an assembly line. You need parts

Even if Boeing wanted to open a second 787 line, it's questionable if all of the suppliers could do likewise in such a rapid manner. It requires the entire contractor base to match Boeing's demand, or you develop a bottleneck around a few components meaning a ramp full of half-finished airplanes.

Opening a second line would be a major major undertaking and risk by Boeing.


User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5590 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
No they did not buy the A350. They made a commitment to buy them, but untill today it has remained a commitment. I'm surprised you've asked that question, given you're recent (wrong) assumptions about other members trying present commitments as firm orders.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say it was a commitment. More like a pre-commitment. QR purchased 10 delivery slots for 788s which were non-binding and completely refundable. They got their refund and went with the A350. Who knows what they will do now, but I think they'll stay with Airbus.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4770 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5537 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 16):
With all these carriers saying they are holding off due to 787 slots are all booked until 2011 why doesn't Boeing open a second line?



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
To build an airplane, you need more than an assembly line. You need parts

Even if Boeing wanted to open a second 787 line, it's questionable if all of the suppliers could do likewise in such a rapid manner. It requires the entire contractor base to match Boeing's demand, or you develop a bottleneck around a few components meaning a ramp full of half-finished airplanes.

Opening a second line would be a major major undertaking and risk by Boeing.

Alenia_Vought who are the main fuselage suppliers are limited by their new factory capacity to 8/month - which is already higher than the production capacity they planned on actually implementing, to increase beyond that is going to require significant expansion of their plants, even if space at the site is available will the money be available??

[Edited 2006-05-30 00:59:06]

User currently offlineCaptainBob From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5083 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Alenia_Vought who are the main fuselage suppliers are limited by their new factory capacity to 8/month - which is already higher than the production capacity they planned on actually implementing, to increase beyond that is going to require significant expansion of their plants, even if space at the site is available will the money be available??

Spirit AeroSystems could handle Alenia_Vought's section if a second line is needed.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4770 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4995 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting CaptainBob (Reply 21):
Spirit AeroSystems could handle Alenia_Vought's section if a second line is needed.

that could well be,but the 6 million $ question is, does Alenia-Vought want them to! A-V are the risk sharing partners for that part of the structure, why would they give it away to another firm who didn't initially invest in that part of the program unless there is a significant redistribution of the workshare or they subcontract out to Spirit.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting CaptainBob (Reply 21):
Spirit AeroSystems could handle Alenia_Vought's section if a second line is needed.

I'd love to see 787 components coming out of Wichita, and fuse sections would ultra-cool.  Smile



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineCaptainBob From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
I'd love to see 787 components coming out of Wichita, and fuse sections would ultra-cool.

Spirit is producing the single piece 40+ foot long Section 41 fuselage component for the 787 in Wichita, and like Trex8 says, A_V could always subcontract more work to them.


25 Post contains images JustPlanes : Someone in Doha really likes Airbus planes... or is it those stickers that come with the planes Qatar is still a small airline if you consider the num
26 Post contains links and images Manni : You call it as you like. That's of no importance. However, you might want to reconsider... The engines... http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/g
27 Dalecary : Manni, actually I'm not having a go at your "commitments" but just the ease that airlines could get out of 787 potential slots by requesting a full re
28 Rheinbote : By ~2013, the same supply chain will have to gear up for Y1 production at rates quickly exceeding 30 per month. If smartly timed, there may be synerg
29 Post contains images DAYflyer : If Boeing were to really comit to the 787-10, they may pull it off. New leadership there may swing the tide. If they go for Boeing, it would be one of
30 Manni : The posts deleted in the last week were deleted yesterday. For household purpose only, as I quoted and reacted to the user who made a top ignorant co
31 Astuteman : As I understand it, though, they have placed deposits. One of their (QR's) primary concerns was having "placed deposits on an aircraft that now exist
32 Post contains images Co7772wuh : Truthfully, I do not know what is up with this QR A350 order? What I find extremely confusing is how QR states it's a launch costumer of the A350 . Y
33 Post contains images Manni : Read and learn then I sure am. If that bothers you, skip the topic. Errors need to be set straight, to keep the uninformed readers informed. To many
34 DfwRevolution : Manni, there is absolutely no need for that. Not that ever is for that matter, but hardly anyone in the industry (be it amature or professional) has
35 Halibut : Manni, I know we have it out on this subject almost weekly . However , in all fairness , this Qatar Airbus deal is way out there . As DfwRevolution p
36 Post contains links Manni : Does QR has firm orders for the A350? The answer is simple. They haven't, what they have made is a commitment for 60 A350's. If you want to call them
37 DAYflyer : The battle of the semantics continues..... But I do have to say any airline that "orders" an airplane by placing deposits and then the manufacturer ma
38 Scouseflyer : I'd be doing exactly what they're doing - sitting tight and waiting to see what the eventual plane looks like - grumbling all the while so that you g
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Boeing In Talks With QF On B747 ADV posted Mon Jan 31 2005 09:46:58 by 777ER
Boeing In Talks With Indian Carriers - 7E7 posted Mon Feb 2 2004 07:11:06 by Flyingdutchboy
Boeing In Talks With Embraer & 20 Others posted Wed Dec 8 1999 03:20:09 by DeltaAir
Boeing Talks About 787-10 At Asian Airshow posted Wed Feb 22 2006 06:50:15 by OyKIE
Boeing In Serious 747 Talks With 3 Or 4 Airlines posted Thu Dec 7 2006 21:10:31 by NoWorries
Boeing Not Concerned About 787 Problems posted Thu Jul 20 2006 15:21:49 by EI321
Boeing's Bair On 787's Weight Problem posted Thu Jun 1 2006 23:32:10 by Saturn5
OS In Talks With UA About Possible ORD-VIE Route posted Fri Jun 17 2005 15:08:29 by VORFMD
Boeing Signs Deal With Cos. On 787 Jet posted Thu May 26 2005 15:09:23 by NYC777
Garuda In Talks With Boeing For 24 Aircraft posted Wed May 18 2005 05:18:43 by Xkorpyoh