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Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?  
User currently offlineRuEwrAcBuff From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

With CO's European route expanision from its EWR hub, I was wondering if CO has any plans to add an EWR-ATH non-stop to its schedule?


"...By the way, Is there anyone onboard who knows how to fly a plane???"
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Some day..........if open skies ever comes to air services between the US and Greece. Until then, Delta is the US carrier to Greece and Olympic is the Greek carrier to the US.

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26147 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

While its certainly possible, I would somewhat doubt it based on equipment types available at CO.

Athens is primarily an ethnic/leisure market with strong seasonality swings.

The 757 which is suited for smaller and lower yield markets would never make it to ATH range wise, while the closest other type seat wise is the B767-200 however its geared much more for premium demand with its cabin configuration. ATH would not support a 764 and certainly not a 777 due to its strong seasonal swings and relatively low business demand compared to other European cities.

For now I would say, Delta will manage to remain the sole US carrier serving Greece. Even it scales back winter services.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

EWR-ATH is not a potential 752 route......but if CO could get authority for a EWR-ATH, my guess is that CO would juggle its schedule and aircraft allocations to come up with a 762 for this route (ie, the later departure on the EWR-CDG route could operate with a 752 instead of a 762).

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

According to the "U.S. Carrier Route Authorities" document published by the U.S. Department of Transportation, dated October 2004, American, Delta and United hold route authorities to Greece on the U.S. side. American also holds the old TWA route authorities.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
According to the "U.S. Carrier Route Authorities" document published by the U.S. Department of Transportation, dated October 2004, American, Delta and United hold route authorities to Greece on the U.S. side. American also holds the old TWA route authorities.

That would mean that AA and UA are sitting with "unused authorities".....how does that work? Can AA and UA sit with these dormant authorities for an unspecified period of time? If CO really wanted to open up EWR-ATH or US wanted to open up PHL-ATH, could those airlines take over AA and UA's rights to Greece since both authorities are sitting dormant?

This is quite interesting.......anyone know how this works? I was under the (wrong) impression that DL was the only US carrier that could fly to Athens. TW was the big player to Greece many years ago, I did not know that AA still had the TW rights.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Can AA and UA sit with these dormant authorities for an unspecified period of time? I

Route authorities approved before a certain date are held in perpetuity, unless an airline asks for a dormant authority to be released so they may fly it. I forget what the date is, but it appears in several route requests, so I'm sure it could be researched.

So for example, if CO really wanted to fly to Greece, they could petition to take over either American's, United's, or the American/TWA authorities.

I could type out the list by city/airline if you'd like.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26147 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
how does that work? Can AA and UA sit with these dormant authorities for an unspecified period of time?

In my office I have a complete list of route authorities held by US air carriers.

Its pretty amazing what authorities airlines have but do not exercise and are referred to as "dormant authorities".

For instance as part of the AA purchase of TWA, it received authorities for something like 40 countries some of which TWA never even operated themselves.

As far as United it served CDG-ATH for a while in the 1990s. I do believe however it still makes use of its authorities from a legal point of view by publishing its flight number on Star code shares to Greece.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAdam T. From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I could type out the list by city/airline if you'd like

I'd be interested in seeing any international route authorites out of CLT that aren't being used.

Adam  Smile


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting Adam T. (Reply 8):
I'd be interested in seeing any international route authorites out of CLT that aren't being used.

The document is arranged by country, then airline, so picking out one country's routes is fairly easy, by city, not so. I'll look and see if this is still available online, though, so you can download it. If I post a link later on, I was successful.  Smile



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

U.S. Air Carrier International Route Authority, issued as of November 1, 2005,

By country:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/country.pdf

By carrier:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/carrier.pdf



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5723 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Well, I dont know if this helps, but Homeric Tours will offer A330-200 flights starting next summer, with a daily flight year round. I wish CO would start EWR-ATH, I really hate switching to Aegean in Rome...


Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
If CO really wanted to open up EWR-ATH or US wanted to open up PHL-ATH, could those airlines take over AA and UA's rights to Greece since both authorities are sitting dormant?

US specifically stated several times that it wanted to start PHL-ATH service, including in the press release announcing their A330 engine selection. PHL-ATH was listed as the specific route that would be made possible by US's selection of the PW4173. Thanks a lot, Pratt.  Embarrassment



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5337 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

Didn't Tower Air fly to Athens for a while? Whose authority did they use?

User currently offlineAdam T. From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
U.S. Air Carrier International Route Authority, issued as of November 1, 2005,

By country:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/country.pdf

By carrier:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/int...r.pdf

Thanks man!  Smile

Adam


User currently offlineAdam T. From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3788 times:

Interesting city pairs, though maybe i'm reading it wrong but some of them are quite off the wall. For example........United Airlines has Australia to Bangor, Maine......why would United want access to a pair like that. That's just one of a few kind of out there pairings.

Any explanation is much appreciated  Smile

Adam


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

Quoting Adam T. (Reply 15):
Interesting city pairs, though maybe i'm reading it wrong but some of them are quite off the wall. For example........United Airlines has Australia to Bangor, Maine

The way route authorities were routinely issued in the past were city pair specific (and some still are).

In the prop days, Bangor would have been the first point of entry to the U.S. for a refueling stop after crossing the Atlantic.

This list has quite a few historic oddities, along with the results of mergers and acquisitions of different airlines over the years. It's just a data table, but I think an enjoyable read! LOL



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAdam T. From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Oh okay, I see where you are coming from! You are right though.....interesting read nonetheless. It's cool to see that US Airways has routes authorities to quite a few countries including Korea and Switzerland.

Adam  Smile


User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2097 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
EWR-ATH is not a potential 752 route......but if CO could get authority for a EWR-ATH, my guess is that CO would juggle its schedule and aircraft allocations to come up with a 762 for this route (ie, the later departure on the EWR-CDG route could operate with a 752 instead of a 762).

DutchJet, the late EWR-CDG departure has ALREADY been downgraded to a 752. The 762 that was flying this route has been redeployed to IAH-EZE.


User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 12):
US specifically stated several times that it wanted to start PHL-ATH service, including in the press release announcing their A330 engine selection. PHL-ATH was listed as the specific route that would be made possible by US's selection of the PW4173.

I know that, but I'd hate to see US waste a 332 on a low yield "glamor" route out of PHL. The majority of Greek Americans live in New York, Detroit, Chicago and Tampa. Obviously, significant feeds to US out of the first 3 is questionable since they are all major non-US hubs, so about the only capture possibility is Tampa. Seems risky. If the interest in ATH is freight, then the 767-200ER is probably a better fit than the 332.


User currently offlineAdam T. From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
If the interest in ATH is freight, then the 767-200ER is probably a better fit than the 332.

But could the 762's be able to make PHL-ATH?


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5723 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

Theres actually a ton of Greeks living in Philadelphia who are quite fed up about having to connect in JFK.


Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
I know that, but I'd hate to see US waste a 332 on a low yield "glamor" route out of PHL. The majority of Greek Americans live in New York, Detroit, Chicago and Tampa. Obviously, significant feeds to US out of the first 3 is questionable since they are all major non-US hubs, so about the only capture possibility is Tampa. Seems risky. If the interest in ATH is freight, then the 767-200ER is probably a better fit than the 332.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I wasn't referring to the 332s when I talked of US and PHL-ATH. US intended on sending the 333s to ATH. After US chose the A330-300X over the B777-200A, it chose Pratt and Whitney to supply the engines for the A330s, even though US is traditionally a GE customer, including already having the CF6 on their B767-200ERs. The first four (or was it five?) frames of the 333 order were to be delivered with the PW4168A engine, with all birds after that coming with the PW4173 engine. US was the launch customer for the 73,000 lb PW4173, and these were the engines to power the 333s that US would send to the further destinations like ATH. Pratt then hit a snag in developing the PW4173 and gave up on it rather too easily, never bringing it to market, in one of a number of high-profile engine development failures for them. It forced US to equip the entire A330 fleet with the PW4168A, sticking them with a whole fleet of underpowered A330-300Xs.

Heh. I just noticed something for the first time. US was the launch customer for the PW4173 on the 333X. And HP was the launch customer for the PW6000 on the 318. What dreadful luck. Let's just say that the new US won't be ordering any new Pratt engines again anytime soon after it's done taking the 332s.  Wink



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3261 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 21):
Theres actually a ton of Greeks living in Philadelphia who are quite fed up about having to connect in JFK.

Yes, but are there enough to support a 5000 mi daily non-stop flight on a wide body aircraft and how many would be willing to pay for a seat in Envoy, or even fly from PHL as individuals rather than as part of a (low profit) tour group? The lack of top tier passenger revenue could or course easily be offset by very good cargo loads - if they exist. I'd venture to say (without research) that there are quite a bit more Mexican Americans in Philadelphia than Greeks, but no one, AM or US, has been successful with a PHL-MEX flight, so far. OP excuse me for stealing this thread from CO and EWR - i'm done.


User currently offlineOMA2FAI2SAV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3247 times:

Great reading AeroWesty! I find it interesting that AA has applied and has rights for so many cities from MCI! Iraq? Never knew there was a MCI-Iraq demand. LOL

Does anyone know why Contiental/Eastern applied for so many international destinations out of OMA? I am from Omaha, and I find that rather odd.

[Edited 2006-05-30 08:07:04]

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5600 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

Quoting OMA2FAI2SAV (Reply 24):
Does anyone know why Contiental/Eastern applied for so many international destinations out of OMA? I am from Omaha, and I find that rather odd.

A bit prior to deregulation, the airlines and the Civil Aeronautics Board went through "route integration proceedings" wherein the CAB said airlines could basically fly between any two cities on their routes. The CAB would inposed restrictions where the integration gave the airline access to a route on which there was an incumbent. As a result airlines ended up with dozens of non-stop city pairs that they never intended to use. This process worked for international routes as well, although in many cases the other country's authority was never sought or granted.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
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