Lokey123 From Barbados, joined May 2006, 137 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2427 times:
The idea of the two troubled carriers coming together has risen once more after taking forefront in May of 2005 at the Caribbean Conference on Sustainable Tourism Development.
A report from ATI (Air Transport Intelligence) states that Jamaica’s minister of foreign affairs and foreign trade Senator Anthony Hylton looked positively at the possible merger of the two airlines.
I was wondering if anyone had any information pertaining to this possibility. I always thought that it would be a good idea, especially with the move to a single market economy.
Captaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 4353 posts, RR: 15 Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2413 times:
Not going to happen at all. The talk had been thrown out from time to time. But don't expect to actually see it happening. BW is on its own 'vibe' right now though, with a new CEO and undergoing restructuring (again) so lets see what happens with the two seperately but ever look to see them operating under one umbrella.
Planemannyc From United States, joined Aug 2003, 936 posts, RR: 11 Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2413 times:
And you can add BahamasAir to that lot. However, while it sounds great, I doubt if this will happen. Despite what outsiders think, there is not a common Carribean voice. If it were so, there would be a fully working Carribean economic zone, instead there is one only in name. There is so much to harness, but the distrust among the larger countries in the English-speaking Carribean will keep this merger away. It's a shame becuase that would make a good, viable airline.
Captaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 4353 posts, RR: 15 Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2405 times:
Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 2): And you can add BahamasAir to that lot. However, while it sounds great, I doubt if this will happen. Despite what outsiders think, there is not a common Carribean voice. If it were so, there would be a fully working Carribean economic zone, instead there is one only in name. There is so much to harness, but the distrust among the larger countries in the English-speaking Carribean will keep this merger away. It's a shame becuase that would make a good, viable airline.
Your two cents is pretty much the situation in the caribbean. YOu would not get BW and JM or coorporate easily. When you really check out,, BW and JM don't actually compete on many routes, but you're not even seeing a codeshare in place. The caribbean is a small area, with a small population with two many airlines trying to be at the top. Then you factor in the North American carriers presence and you have a very messy situation. But that is how it is almost all areas, from politics to busines..
Sounds good, but as CaptainK and Planemannyc have stated, the pride issue among the CARICOM members would not allow such a merger. Basically, the Caribbean is divided in many areas, especially aviation, and so the US and UK arlines are coming in to conquer. Since the troubles really escalated for BW and JM, I've seen the entrance of US, DL, and NK, and increased activity from AA, CO, and VS (and I'm sure I'm missing a few). At least a code share would be great, but who knows. I'm happy that BW has found a new CEO (and he's ruffled some feather already since he got there), and I pray that their situation turns around. It's about time.
Neil
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
ERJ170 From United States, joined Apr 2004, 5768 posts, RR: 22 Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2349 times:
Hmm.. I got to pondering this...
Is it realistic or just egotistical that I put so many US destinations? I mean, it is realistic that an airline would want to have so many US destinations, or are there other places much more lucrative than flying to the US.. I'm just wondering if I am being an egotistical American and saying to be a good airline you have to fly to lots of places in the US, or not..
And please don't flame the question..I am really interested. Thanks..
Planemannyc From United States, joined Aug 2003, 936 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2326 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 6):
Is it realistic or just egotistical that I put so many US destinations? I mean, it is realistic that an airline would want to have so many US destinations, or are there other places much more lucrative than flying to the US
Currently, the biggest chunk of passengers to the Caribbean is from the US. Lot more people of Caribbean reside in the States than they do in Europe. Canada also has a large volume of traffic.
Nassau has a lot more US/ Canada traffic than European traffic. It's a little less lopsided in Jamaica, and even less so in Trinidad and Barbados.
No, you are not wrong in your assumption. For most Caribbean destination, the US is a main source of traffic. This can be quantified by the sheer frequency of flights between the Carribbean and N. America
ERJ170 From United States, joined Apr 2004, 5768 posts, RR: 22 Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2316 times:
Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 7): Currently, the biggest chunk of passengers to the Caribbean is from the US.
Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 7): Canada also has a large volume of traffic.
So why doesn't more CAribbean airlines offer service to destinations? I mean, of course they are all going to fly to MIA, NYC, CHI, WAS.. but why not do like Air Canada and use smaller jets to reach other areas? Areas like TPA, MSY, CLT, BNA, RDU, PBI, MCI, STL, IAH, CMH, BDL, PVD, IND, etc.. I am sure each of the above destinations could do with at least a 3-7x weekly E75/F100/DC9/732 flight to NAS, MBJ, AUA, CUN, Cayman, STT or something similar just on O&D alone!
You got to give it to AC.. they got all the other North America/Caribbean airlines BEAT hands down! Something I would have thought MX or AM would have done by now.. but oh well..
Captaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 4353 posts, RR: 15 Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2309 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 8):
So why doesn't more CAribbean airlines offer service to destinations? I mean, of course they are all going to fly to MIA, NYC, CHI, WAS.. but why not do like Air Canada and use smaller jets to reach other areas? Areas like TPA, MSY, CLT, BNA, RDU, PBI, MCI, STL, IAH, CMH, BDL, PVD, IND, etc.. I am sure each of the above destinations could do with at least a 3-7x weekly E75/F100/DC9/732 flight to NAS, MBJ, AUA, CUN, Cayman, STT or something similar just on O&D alone!
Flights to some of those cities you mentioned would be purely tourists. Cause you wont find many caribbean nationals living or visit there. It may not be worth it to fly to these destinations as certain caribbean islands save for NAS and others, are not very popular among Americans. Grenada for example has flgihts from BA, VS, XLA and DE but can't sustain one North American carrier's jet service.
BGI has the above almost daily, but couldn't really keep US dailly or CO. Most caribbean islands are niche tourist markets and it is not Americans. The NYC/MIA/CHI etc are flights that see plenty tourist but also many ex pats, cause that is where they live.
MD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 13 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2293 times:
To answer your questions, no. It's not going to happen, due to alot of complications(esp. political) . Plus every one of those Caribbean countries wants to have its countrie's name on that plane
Besides UP's problems are being sorted out as we speak. Basil Sands, since he came in to run UP, has added SDQ and HAV retired an old 732. He has also outourced unprofitable Andros island destinations to Western Air. The other problem is the labor/union issues, but those are being sorted out too
Come on man?? No DASH-8's or ATR's, there are plenty of routes (in bahamas at least) where a E-70 wouldnt be cost efficient, in terms of capacity and fuel economy (short island hops).
And as for Bahamas-UK market, forget about it as it is way too crowded(for it's size) with BA,VS and First Choice operating Bahamas-UK routes
AA1818 From Trinidad And Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 2690 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2268 times:
As a Trinidadian fortunate enough to receive information about BWEE and Caribbean politics from the highest sources, I can tell you that a merger is far off as stated above.
Jamaica is demanding the hub be in Jamaica with all traffic routed into and out of Jamaica, which isn't too bad because it means Jamaicans will have to stop in the islands and not Trinis, Bajans etc. However, stuff like maintenance etc are also to be in Jamaica which simply does not go down well with Trinidad. While Jamaica is bigger- 2wice the population, 2wice the size, it's National Budget is basically the same size as Trinidad who is half its size. Trinidad feels that the Caribbean will 'unite' under it and it will lead the Caribbean to prosperity with itself at the helm- which is more plausible than any other island doing so, but for historical and pride reasons Barbados and Jamaica object.
GOTT has since undertaken to 'show the small islanders how it's done' and really transform BW into something viable. Cost cuts, reorganization, foreign administration and recapitalization are all on the table. GOTT actually has the $250m USD to give to BW, GOJ is yet to show where this money is coming from since it already has the 6th largest debt in the world (as a percentage of GDP according to the Economist Magazine). Recapitalizing JM remains pie in the sky for the time being. BW is basically hoping that JM becomes a flop and the GOTT has to bail it out, thus making POS defacto the new hub and having a Jamaican airline under Trinidadian 'rule' so to speak.
Hope that's not too complicated, I may have rambled in between and again- apologies.
A few years back had charters to the Bahamas and flights to CUN.
Hello ERJ170, the reason for the lack of n/s service between secondary/non large Caribbean population centers are because lack of demand from the Caribbean side. No Bahamians go to Nashville, Tenesee or Columbus, Ohio. Instead going to South Florida and a few to New York City
There is demand going there, and there is one carrier I know that specializes in these kind of p2p routes, USA3000.
For instance they fly CVG-PUJ/CUN, PIT-SXM/PUJ and so on...
Jm017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 900 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2246 times:
Quoting AA1818 (Reply 11): BW is basically hoping that JM becomes a flop and the GOTT has to bail it out, thus making POS defacto the new hub and having a Jamaican airline under Trinidadian 'rule' so to speak.
Are you serious? Do they (GOTT) see this as a possible outcome?
"Behind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his wife." - Groucho Marx
Captaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 4353 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2225 times:
MD90fan that is the point. NAS and one or two other islands are very popular with American tourists. But that is not the case with many of the other islands. You would find them to be more popular among the European tourist.
ERJ170 From United States, joined Apr 2004, 5768 posts, RR: 22 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2143 times:
I understand what everone is saying.. but what I am saying is that some of these places could work from one or more of the hubs I mentioned.. and most could be 3x weekly.. not daily.
Even though some of the cities may be served from a US carrier, does not mean that it can't be served from the Caribbean carrier. If that was the case, then there would be no foreign service to the US.. only American flights. And there has to be enough tourist in those cities to sustain some sort of flight.. even if it is only 1x or 2x weekly.. but I was just thinking 3x weekly for good coverage. There has to be some competition somewhere. Just because NW flies IND, Cayman flies FLL, Bahamasair flies FLL and MCO, doesn't mean another airline can't fly it. And besides, my proposal was assuming the merger of BWIA, Air Jamaica, and Bahamasair.. but oh well, was just an idea.. dont toast my @ss with a flame, please.. just pondering..
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 2431 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2125 times:
Butch Stewart made JM for a short time a Caribbean Airline, and the only way he could do that was to build hotels in the islands, without that he would never have gotton permission for JM to fly those routes.
Its the old colonial thing, united we stand, divided we fall, and we have always been divided as a people and so we evolved.
Each country want's its own national airline, and for those dependent on tourism, it makes sense. To US airlines the Caribbean is just another market, if a more lucrative route opens up elswhere and they need the a/c the route is gone, to the country however, it just lost a economic life line.
The main problem has been Govt's not properly "capitalizing" their national carriers, and trying to be all things to everyone. Take BahamasAir for example, the state of Florida is our largest market, so lets serve it. Do a WN on Mia / FLL with proper B737 and see what happens to AA Eagle.
Until we changed a/c registry, we had to go to the far east to get a/c with the C6 registration, mostly overused, rust buckets 737-200's.
Yellowtail From Belize, joined Jun 2005, 2261 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 2026 times:
Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 2): I doubt if this will happen. Despite what outsiders think, there is not a common Carribean voice. If it were so, there would be a fully working Carribean economic zone, instead there is one only in name.
You hit the nail on the head. If there are 2 things we in the caribbean know how to do well is to party and let pride get in the way of progress.
A merger of any sort will not happen until we get leaders with vision instead of leaders who worry about whose pocket they can empty next.
AA1818 From Trinidad And Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 2690 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1898 times:
Quoting Jm017 (Reply 13): Are you serious? Do they (GOTT) see this as a possible outcome?
I don't know if they are seirous, but from a few Ministers that is the attitude, The GOTT is dismissing any plans for JM to become the regions number one and hopes that even if JM doesn't fail, then hopefully BW will be profitable and can acquire LIAT and JM and become the regions number 1. Trinidad is intent on being at the helm of the Caribbean with the majority of regional arm headquarters, leaders who have unity as their vision and a serious drive for developed country status by 2020.
Trinidad granted more Jamaicans residency/ citizenship in 1st QR '06 than Jamaica did to Trinidadians (which was almost non-existant). More and more we are become a 'centre for regional issues, development and resources'.
I however, am of the opinion that while Trinidad will he at the helm, there is enough room for a Jamaican airline to be on its own. Jamaica is very far away and technically if Jm stayed out of the Eastern Caribbean then BW and JM wouldn't compete AT ALL!!!! The only ppl JM and BW are competing with are the US airlines. I think both will stay even with regional integration in Trinidad's terms!!!!
JMBWEEBOY From United States, joined Feb 2006, 173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1863 times:
Short and sweet, I believe too many here are underestimating the Jamaicans!
Important point not made so far is the Air Jamaica is a far more recognizable name throught North American than BWEE. Air Jamaica has been extremely
succesful in working with tourism interests not only on Jamaica, but in
the other island destinations it serves. JM truly understands, unlike BWEE,
it cannot be succesful in the long term simply transporting ex-patriats back
and forth once a year!
Planemannyc From United States, joined Aug 2003, 936 posts, RR: 11 Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1838 times:
History tells us that regional airlines of this nature does not do well. Malaysia-Singapore Airlines (MSA), Air Afrique and East African Airlines and now Gulf Air is another example. SAS seems to be the only one that has a successful record, and TACA to a lesser degree. The problem always comes down to one party feeling left out. Inevitably, to satisfy each country, political routes are put in over economic viability of such. And if one country gets more routes allocated (even if they deserve to because of higher traffic), other countries become resentful. Eventually, one of the resentful countries opens up its own airlines (like SQ, TC, EK) and the regional carrier breaks apart. In my opinion, such a merger between JM, BW, UP would work if all three carriers failed and a private organization would buy up and manage their assets without political interference. I seriously doubt if that will happen.
2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3507 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1821 times:
2-3 hub airlines in small markets usually don't work.
If an unlikely event of a JM-BW merger, the new airline will be forced to have 2 hubs, most logically: MBJ and POS; not only that, locations like KIN, BGI maybe ANU, GND, UVF will demmand their share of dedicated non-stops to key U.S./Canada/U.K. destinations.
They'll surely try to do something like TA has done in Centralamerica, which as far as size of the region is concerned, it's smaller than The Caribbean.
But TA did somewhat succeded because TA from El Salvador got control of the neighbouring countries airlines, also please remember TA does get feed from Southamerica thru its hub in LIM and a other non-stops to their SJO and SAL hubs.
If BW is to "buy" JM (I doubt it could be the other way around) the idea of a BW-JM merge may not be a dream.
If that new airline is going to rely on leisure and VFR traffic between Northamerica/Europe and The Caribbean and not try to set up flights to Latinamerica for feeds, their success will be quite doubtfull.
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5432 posts, RR: 55 Reply 25, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1794 times:
Quoting MD90fan (Reply 12): A few years back had charters to the Bahamas and flights to CUN.
Miami Air has been flying CUN charters from MSY for a couple of weeks now.
Weekly service to San Pedro Sula and La Ceiba starts next week.
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
26 Yellowtail: Not entirely true...although not an island..their BZE service failed miserably because they failed to make it attractive to both tourists and ex-pats
27 MD90fan: I remember the "San Pedro Express" thread from a few weeks back IMO AE can fill at least one ATR-72 based on the connection oppurtunities at MIA/FLL
28 AirCanada014: Doesn't AC offer daily service year round or daily service during high season and 5 weekly during low season to BGI?
29 WestIndian425: Actually, UVF is back (thank God!). Neil
30 LouA340: That is very true. Its the same thing that happened with Air Afrique which contributed to their eventual downfall. All the different locations wanted
31 Fpofllflyboi: Please forgive my ignorance, but how can this or has this changed anything for UP or the Bahamas?
32 2travel2know: Same happened when TA took over the Centralamerican airlines; GUA, MGA, SAP and TGU lost non-stops flights - which some were profitable - to most of
33 Caymanair: As Ive said numerous times before, a merger of West INdian carriers will NEVER come to be, and all of you seem to know why already. On the other hand,
34 Lokey123: I have been so busy that I haven't even gotten a chance to weigh in on my own thread, what a shame. I am glad that this topic has spurred some discuss
35 Trintocan: Merger talk between BW and JM strikes again! Interestingly enough the history of BW is that it effectively was a carrier serving both Trinidad and Jam
36 LTBEWR: I would suggest that AA, with their hub in SJU serving with smaller a/c to many points in the Carribbean also hurts a merger among major Carribbean Is
37 AA1818: If I can add that BW doesn't seem to need tourists. Its flights to JFK, MIA, IAD and YYZ depart almost full year round and its flights to LHR are usua
38 Yellowtail: IMHO....I don't think CO is doing that great on its IAH-POS route...a snapshot of a Sunday ..i was at the gate next to the departing POS flight in ea
39 2travel2know: Maybe is doing quite OK, if not CO would have asked CM to send their IAH pax to POS from PTY, as they do with SDQ, MDE and soon MAR and STI. Is CO PO
40 Westindian425: Really? I just read that they got a pay increase, and 2 people in upper management were given the pink slip! http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2006-
41 JMBWEEBOY: [quote=Yellowtail,reply=38] more of a business route... Yes, the POS-IAH route is very business, and flights run very high loads Monday-Friday. I have
42 AA1818: - Beat me too it JMBWEEBOY- CO started the route as a 2wice weekly flight and its up to daily i believe. Also, the flight has been a huge success as h
43 MSYtristar: I think so. The flights are just going to be flown on Saturday's through August for the time being. More will be added if they do well. Bookings are
44 2travel2know: Seems to me that a red-eye would be better for both IAH and POS. Red-eye departure means more connecting possibilities @ IAH, early morning arrival i
45 AA1818: Actually not many CO passengers on the IAH flight connect. Most are business or VFR, final destination POS. The flight times are perfect because I ha
46 JMBWEEBOY: I know we are starting to stray from subject of this thread, but my dream is ATL to POS with service by Delta. ATL of course gets incredible feed fro
47 2travel2know: DL ATL-POS sounds more feasible than an AA DFW-POS, non-stop, much less via CCS or MAR (!), given the current Venezuela - U.S. "friendly" relations an
48 Westindian425: A little off-topic... Well, since T&T recently got their status upgraded to CAT 1, it's possible that some of these routes could open up for BW. The q
49 Captaink: I am with you on that. But do they have the money to buy twin engined long haul aircraft at this point. I wish I new exactly what their plan was. I h
50 Caymanair: After the government took back ownership of AJ, they sent back 2 or 3 A320/21. 1 A320 is sitting in KIN in AJ colours with the titles missing. I dont
51 Psimpson: You are right that JM returned some aircraft during the first quarter of 2005 after heavy losses, which also included JM closing down a few unprofita
52 Captaink: I was still working at GND when JM had their fleet grounded. I do remember some airplanes going back, or taken out of the fleet, and certain stations
53 Caymanair: Well that particular day I was in KIN connecting on to Cayman from ANU, and my flight was cancelled. AJ staff explained to all the GCM bound passenger
54 WestIndian425: Wow!! What a routing! the closest I had to that was instead of ATL-JFK (non-rev on JM), I had to do ATL-MBJ-BGI-UVF-JFK. I certainly didn't mind that
55 MD90fan: Well they leased out some A32S, and ended Havana-London and the Manchester route. Well they have a new website! Best Regards, MD90fan
56 WestIndian425: Actually, I was thinking about the former CEO's, but thanks for the info. Neil
57 Par13del: "Quoting Par13del (Reply 17): Until we changed a/c registry, we had to go to the far east to get a/c with the C6 registration, mostly overused, rust b
58 MD90fan: Hey there, no problem buddy They need replacement now
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