Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity  
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6939 posts, RR: 77
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6032 times:

Interesting article on www.handelsblatt.com , covering the shortage of capacity at Frankfurt Airport.

German only:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/pshb/fn/...furt-ist-nur-noch-nummer-drei.html

Short summary (translation):
Since Frankfurt airport cannot handle more flights with the existing infrastructure, it has lost its second place among Europe's largest airports to Paris-CDG. FRA lacks an additional runway, and - according to CEO Wilhelm Bender - several airlines have had to be rejected.


A new runway is planned to be operational by 2009 - but resistance is severe. It seems MUC will benefit even more in the future if a fourth runway faces more delays.


PH


Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIntothinair From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 392 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5776 times:

This indeed is very bad news for FRA, let's just hope they can get the fourth runways running by 2009!

cheers, Konstantin G.


User currently offlineBBJII From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5773 times:

Any idea which airlines and routes?


Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5718 times:

If it has a problem with capacity now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

[Edited 2006-06-01 14:59:55]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5704 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 3):
If it has a problem with shortage now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

The A380 is supposed to give relief to restricted airports by reducing frequency in favor of capacity. At least it allows to substitute a smaller plane by a bigger one to increase capacity with constant frequency.



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5704 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 3):
If it has a problem with shortage now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

I don't see this problem. It is a question of slots and not passengers. LH has the slots they only use bigger planes.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5674 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 3):
If it has a problem with shortage now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

A runway slot is a runway slot, whether used by a Fokker 50 on an A380. Lufthansa has plenty of FRA slots, so I'm confident they will be able to squeeze the A380s in somewhere.


User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6843 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5674 times:

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 1):
let's just hope they can get the fourth runways running by 2009!

considering the problems getting runway 3 built in the late 1980's I can't imagine it being an easy ride.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5635 times:

But ultimately FRA has a problem due to its situation allowing literally nor major expansion.
CDG has 300 Ha of reserve land...
German bureaucracy is at it's best when it comes to runway -and airport constructions..(Berlin Airport, slots in DUS,new runway in Frankfurt,Finkenwerder,NUE highway access etc..)
Planning-cycles of 10-12 years are typical without guarantee to succeed..
LH will find relieve by using A380's in FRA ,but space is becomming a premium comodity and MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.

Yes and probably Zurich Big grin


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5600 times:

That's the joy of having too many tree huggers in Germany.
"What, you want to take down these trees for a new runway? Not gonna happen, trees are living creatures as well. And planes are evil anyway"  Yeah sure .
If it was up to me, I'd probably decide to go to the forest where the runway is to be located, and with the help of a nice flamethrower take care of the whole problem (including tree huggers trying to protect the trees)  devil .


User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1383 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5581 times:

I passed thru FRA on the way back to Kuwait this past Monday, and if runway capacity is in short supply, terminal capacity can not be far behind. T1 and T2 were packed in the six hours I was there.

Bring on T3!!!


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5600 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5560 times:

Ah yes, frequency restrictions ... it's all a scheme to force A380 purchases. I expected that they'd wait until the plane was in service, though.  Yeah sure


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5549 times:

Actually the Bio-mass in Europe is increasing by the years...
In France the forest-capacity and surface has increased by 15 % over the last 35 years.It might look disturbing to bring down trees close to the Frankfurt-airport,but trees grow relatively fast in german forest. Their action as re-generator for oxygen and pollution-cleaner is quite active in central Europe and will increase with the change in climate..



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6939 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
German bureaucracy is at it's best when it comes to runway -and airport constructions..(Berlin Airport, slots in DUS,new runway in Frankfurt,Finkenwerder,NUE highway access etc..)

Not only bureaucracy. Many people move close to airports, enjoy cheap real estate prices and an attractive job market but then suddenly start to complain about noise and pollution and support action opposition groups...

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):
Ah yes, frequency restrictions ... it's all a scheme to force A380 purchases.

Sorry?


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5600 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5216 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 14):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):
Ah yes, frequency restrictions ... it's all a scheme to force A380 purchases.

Sorry?

Just a joke.

If EU airports fix frequencies, it would be necessary to use larger planes to accommodate growth, thus promoting the sale of A380s. I don't believe this is actually happening ... yet.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Exactly the reason why the idea of using smaller aircraft like the 787 with higher frequency isn't always appropriate.

FRA has good rail links, maybe more of the shorter flights can be replaced by the high speed ICE trains?



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
LH will find relieve by using A380's in FRA ,but space is becomming a premium comodity and MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.

Only Berlin will not, typical - Berlin is always running behind..............



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5132 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
FRA has good rail links, maybe more of the shorter flights can be replaced by the high speed ICE trains?

LH officials have been quoted on occasion that they'd like to move the majority of domestic flights below 50 or 60 minutes duration to ICEs travelling with LH flightnumbers; my trains to Essen and back from Köln this past weekend both had LH flightnumbers as well.

You don't gain any time when flying from CGN to FRA over taking the train, even from DUS it should be, at best, equal if not still faster by train... and I think STR to FRA doesn't have much of an advantage in the air either...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
Exactly the reason why the idea of using smaller aircraft like the 787 with higher frequency isn't always appropriate.

Using a jumbo or super jumbo isn't always appropriate either.

If you were flying from FRA to DTW, which would you rather do: Fly an A380 to JFK, change planes and go to DTW, or take an A330 nonstop? When the A380 enters service I doubt that LH will give up their nonstop A330 service to DTW, in order to relieve congestion in FRA.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 18):
You don't gain any time when flying from CGN to FRA over taking the train, even from DUS it should be, at best, equal if not still faster by train...

And what equipment is used on those flights? A320s and 737s? Eliminating some of these flights will free up room for the 787.

[Edited 2006-06-02 08:30:27]

User currently offlineLfutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3356 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5091 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ZRH (Reply 9):
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.

Yes and probably Zurich

and possibly Amsterdam. Afterall, Amsterdam is only a stone's throw away from Frankfurt Big grin

Leo



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
User currently offlineScoliodon From India, joined Oct 2005, 217 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5066 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
If it was up to me, I'd probably decide to go to the forest where the runway is to be located, and with the help of a nice flamethrower take care of the whole problem (including tree huggers trying to protect the trees)

Hahaha..good one man!!  rotfl 

And the irony is, the same treehuggers would have boarded a dozen flights @ FRA to attend "Save our world from Airplanes" conferences.  Big grin



JFK-LGA-EWR-DTW-IND-PHX-CLE-SFO-LAS-SEA-ORD-MCO-MIA-DFW-ATL-CDG-FRA-BOM-MAA-DEL-TRZ-DXB-CLT-CVG-DEN-MSP
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4696 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4993 times:

This is not real "new" news - FRA has had these problems for at least the last seven or eight years. While there are -in theory - a few slots available, these lie during totally unattractive times of the day. All interesting time periods are already taken and will remain occupied unless a carrier goes belly-up.


Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineTS-IOR From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 3492 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Which airlines have been rejected ?

As Frankfurt-Hahn is managed by Fraport, the solution is in !!! An extensive use of this so-called cargo and low-cost airfield and that's it  Wink
I know things aren't as easy as that, but, let's say, small charter airlines operating just two or three flights a week could be shifted to HHN allowing more slots for major airlines at FRA.


User currently offlineSkyman From Germany, joined May 2006, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4902 times:

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
two or three flights a week could be shifted to HHN

Do you know where Hahn is? In the middle of nowhere and no train going there either.

Quoting Columba (Reply 17):

Only Berlin will not, typical - Berlin is always running behind..............

Berlin is running behind but don't underestimate it. Traffic is growing there. The biggest mistake that they want to do is closing Tempelhof (EDDI). I would use it as a government and bizz airport. Otherwise BBI will have slot problems before even starting.
München will be the big winner. They already making plans for the third runway now. Which is also needed.


25 DAL767400ER : They actually had those plans from the get-go in 1992, but so far the additional capacity was not needed, though that will likely change soon. Plus,
26 Skyman : Concerning the capacity at M�nchen a third runway would help a lot. During peak times they got problems now and the peak times are getting more a
27 Post contains images Keesje : It is all one big European conspiracy to challenge Boeings point to point vs VLA vision!
28 Humberside : Weren't Belavia meant to be starting HHN flights because they couldn't expand at FRA. Did these ever happen? I would keep ithow it is now. I dont see
29 PlaneHunter : Who ever has suggested that LH would give up existing nonstops? The A380 can help to increase capacity on certain routes without filling additional s
30 BoomBoom : Certainly not me, I think mid-size jets are the future. When I was last in DTW I waiting for a commuter flight and could look across at the internati
31 StuckInCA : In my opinion this would be great! As a passenger, I'm even willing to pay a premium to transfer at MUC or ZRH over FRA.
32 PlaneHunter : What's so special about all that? DTW is NW's transatlantic hub, AF connects two large SkyTeam hubs and LH connects a major American metropolis to it
33 Incitatus : Next will be London Heathrow will lose the top stop among European airports to CDG.
34 Intothinair : I wouldn't be surprised if this happens, on top of that i would expect the likes of HKG and BKK to overtake FRA over the next 2-3 years interms of pa
35 Dutchjet : Thats a good question......exactly which airlines have been unable to commence service at FRA? Three comments: 1. Look for LH to further grow the Mun
36 Leskova : If LH continues relocating passengers from the air onto trains within Germany, the option of sending two A321s in place of one A300 on routes where y
37 OldAeroGuy : The above statements are true only if the wake vortex related separation distances are unchanged from those currently used for the A346/773ER/744. If
38 BA787 : Is lhr in the same position as FRA on the Capacity and green peace front lol
39 Skyman : Even if we have to add a mile for vortex separation it is still a lot better than an additional aircraft. At least six miles on the final more work,
40 4xRuv : depends on which aircraft youre talking about..., becuase if instead of 6 A380 you have 7 744s, i think you'd go with the second option
41 Post contains images HAJFlyer : Yes, wouldn´t that be ironic if ZRH whose growth has be obstructed by arbitrary, protectionist and possibly illegal German airspace restrictions wer
42 Skyman : Why? Even if mileage would come out the same you need one less gate.
43 4xRuv : 1.Diversity of destinations. 2. 744 official turnaround time - 60 min. 380 official turnaround time - 90 min. so the gate number is not a factor. mor
44 PlaneHunter : No carrier turns a B744 around in 60 minutes for a longhaul flight. PH
45 OldAeroGuy : Depends on what the choke point is. Is it runways slot or gate slots? Since the discussion started with the second runway issue, it sounds like runwa
46 Post contains images ZRH :
47 Abrelosojos : = This would be absolutely fantastic. I would pay a premium to fly via ZRH to avoid FRA and of course CDG. -A.
48 4xRuv : How come LHR manages with only two active rwys, but FRA can't with 3?
49 PanHAM : That is because the two parallel runways in FRA are too close to allow independent operation. It is seen more often mow in good wheather, but the all
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Will Airlines Be Forced To Pay Tax On Fuel Soon? posted Sun Feb 19 2006 04:21:28 by Ammunition
Government Staff Forced To Fly National Airlines posted Wed Nov 23 2005 04:58:23 by ETStar
Singapore Airlines Cuts 19.7% Of Capacity posted Fri Apr 11 2003 12:38:28 by Singapore_Air
The Wings Of Man: Tribute To Eastern Airlines posted Fri Feb 28 2003 16:24:39 by Matt D
Taiwan Government To Sell 20-30% Of China Airlines posted Sat Jul 20 2002 16:19:04 by Singapore_Air
What Airlines Fly To Your Airport & # Of Flights? posted Tue Apr 30 2002 01:18:16 by BA
Martin George To Be New CEO Of Gulf Air? posted Sat Nov 18 2006 21:17:14 by GF-A330
How To Find Owner/lessor Of An Aircraft? posted Wed Nov 15 2006 00:30:08 by Australia1
Is It Possible To Know The Reg. Of A Future Flight posted Tue Nov 7 2006 22:01:13 by Tony Lu
A350XWB, Forced To Go Bleedless? posted Sun Nov 5 2006 12:13:09 by AirSpare