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Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?  
User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1507 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Hello all


I know Canada and the USA won't offer cabbatoging but whats the chance they decide to reopen the talks and remove the Transborder Service then rename it North American Service in the near future? More competitions and more choices would be cool right? both airlines open up new hubs in Canada and the US. We'll still keep the nationalities for both countries but allow to offer seemless service anywhere in Canada and anywhere in the USA or within Canada or within USA. Remove all restrictions. Imagine CO and UA open up new hubs in YYZ and YVR while AC open up LAX and JFk. I know its been talking about it but can you imagine? If I'm correct some european countries are combining their airservice under one roof within European Union? I hope this makes any sense to you all  Smile

Thank you

your comments and oppinions are appreciate please.

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSEAPlane10 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Why stop with aviation? Canada and the US should really drop all barriers to trade -- a completely free-trade zone should exist.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

Oh.. I could say something that would make all Canadians mad at me.. and be coming to beat down my door.. LOL..

So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!  bouncy 



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements, I don't think this is realistic. Even North American Free Trade is a shadow of the EU model.


Above and Beyond
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7929 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

What about Canadian domestic flight manifests being given to US authorities? I guess that already happens, after all, the US turned back that KLM flight from AMS to MEX, so they must have seen the passenger list. And I would think a lot of Canadian domestic flights enter US airspace. YYZ to Winnipeg is mostly over the US, for instance. With 80% of the Canadian population within a hundred miles or so of the US border, I would think 80% of their flights actually cross the border.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements, I don't think this is realistic. Even North American Free Trade is a shadow of the EU model

I'm going out on a limb on this one, but I'll predict the Passport rule for Canada will be dropped sooner than later. It really has been aimed at Mexico more than anything to try and stem the flow of illegal immigration. Just doesn't look politically correct to not include the Canuck's in this one as starters. The US and Canada particularly at the Stte and Provincial level cooperate and share a gerat deal of driver liscesing information as it is. the biometric features going into both US and Canadian passports will be featured in State and Provincial motor vehicle operator licenses in coming years as well. All the liberal bilingualists can  flamed  me now!
The biggest reason it doesn't become more liberal with airspace now, is ACs Robert Milton is so affraid of WN coming in and "Cherry-Picking all of his profitable routes!  hissyfit  The new bilateral agreement will allow a third country visit for example now and the charter carriers have pushed this even more than AC I'm told. Both Sunquest and Signature Vacations along with SkyService Charter Airlines want the ability to stop in the US enroute to some of their Caribbean and Mexican all-inclusive vacations during the November-April tourist season.
What really needs to happen is more competition on trans-49th routes. I hate paying $600 for RT airfare between SLC-YVR or SLC-YYC!



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!

We only get mad cause we know its going to happen!



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineBistro1200 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 337 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Quoting AirCanada014 (Thread starter):
allow to offer seemless service anywhere in Canada and anywhere in the USA or within Canada or within USA.

No need to create new hubs. Right now, you can't buy a YVR-ORD-YYZ flight on AA or UA, nor a LGA-YYZ-LAX fare on AC. Lifting cabotage rules would allow those fares to be sold. Canada and the USA already lifted 6th and 7th freedoms, allowing AC to fly LAXSYD, and Qantas SFOYVR as a revenue leg. There is nothing stopping a European carrier from offering revenue service from YYZ to the US, or vice versa.



Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
User currently offlineAC777LR From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 487 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2992 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!

That may not be a bad Idea, however, you had better offer Free health care like we have in Canada, Big grin cuz then for me its good by Ontario, Hello Hawaii.



Member since April 2000
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1531 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2957 times:

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements, I don't think this is realistic. Even North American Free Trade is a shadow of the EU model.

Which is somewhat based off the model within the US, between states.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineNWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2883 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL! bouncy

or "The United States Of Canada" LOL Robert NWD10


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2789 times:

Quoting DYK (Reply 6):
We only get mad cause we know its going to happen!

LOL! When Quebec defects the Dominion, AB, BC, SA, MB all petition Congress for Statehood?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!  

Actually, I was thinking 11th province!


User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

A few US Airlines could use a Hub Like YUL which is at 50% capacity right now

User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):
The biggest reason it doesn't become more liberal with airspace now, is ACs Robert Milton is so affraid of WN coming in and "Cherry-Picking all of his profitable routes!

Milton has publically stated that he would welcome a more liberal "open skies"
agreement with the US. Might want to check with some of your carriers to see where the actual concerns are.


User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 641 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2750 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!

LOL

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Actually, I was thinking 11th province!

Just what I was thinking!

Quoting Accargo (Reply 14):
Milton has publically stated that he would welcome a more liberal "open skies"
agreement with the US. Might want to check with some of your carriers to see where the actual concerns are.

This is correct. Milton has been asking for cabotage for years. AC is positioned very well, especially with the E-Jets coming into the fleet. Milton only wants to ensure that cabotage rights were reciprocal. I remember when Davis Dingwall (former Transport Minister) talked about allowing US carriers into Canada without asking the same for AC in the States (in response to the merger between CP and AC). What a mofo.



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2951 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2701 times:
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CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Actually, I was thinking 11th province!

What are you talking about, thats the Turks and Caicos  Smile

Anyways, pull the border? Not gonna happen alas, not with the current American security fixation... It may not be an undefended border much longer...

As for seemless... well this could happen now. AC could offer connecting fares between US point and NW between Canadian points now, its just a problem of clearing up the legalities. US to US via Canada would actually be very simple thanks to preclearance zones at the major airports. Canada to Canada via the US more difficult EXCEPT those cities without preclearance in Canada... like some of the ones NW/NWExpress serve (Thunder Bay, London, Waterloo, etc).



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2700 times:

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 13):
A few US Airlines could use a Hub Like YUL which is at 50% capacity right now

YUL thought they could become another YYZ. More Transport Canada $$$ from other Provinces going in to prop up Quebec's ego. And we thought the USA taxpayers got fleeced by various agencies for "pork" projects!  irked 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 10):
or "The United States Of Canada"



Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Actually, I was thinking 11th province!

I don't get it..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineSonic99 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

airspace as one someday? I cetainly hope not.

[Edited 2006-06-02 00:07:11]

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 1):
Canada and the US should really drop all barriers to trade

Not just trade, they should drop all the barriers. The only things at the border should be signs reading "Welcome to ...." There should be no passport control and no customs control between the US and Canada. It is an enormous waste of resources that benefits no one but the bureaucrats.

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements

Hopefully, that silliness will end when the current administration leaves office.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2528 times:

Nah, just negotiate bilateral air agreements with other groups, like the EU, as one. Then the EU will have a harder time demanding cabotage within Canada and the US. They can't argue that domestic Canada or domestic US is similar to flights between nations in the EU if the US and Canada offer them what is in actuality the same thing.


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Hopefully, that silliness will end when the current administration leaves office.

It WILL HAPPEN BEFORE the administration leaves office, once the fence all along the Mexican border is in place!



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
once the fence all along the Mexican border is in place!

Which is akin to painting the Golden Gate bridge, it never ends. As soon as you build the fence, you have to go back to the beginning and start repairing all the holes, gaps and breaches where the prospective fieldworkers, gardeners and service industry workers pour through by the thousands. Good luck trying to effectively enforce any sort of physical barrier there.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting Bistro1200 (Reply 7):
Canada and the USA already lifted 6th and 7th freedoms, allowing AC to fly LAXSYD, and Qantas SFOYVR as a revenue leg. There is nothing stopping a European carrier from offering revenue service from YYZ to the US, or vice versa.

Not quite - Canada and the US have granted each other unlimited onward 5ths. This allows AC to exercise 5th freedom rights LAX-SYD on their flight YYZ-LAX-SYD. They cannot operate LAX-SYD alone. AA could operate DFW-YVR-TYO but only if the Japanese also gave 5ths.

Australia has had 5th freedom rights SFO-YVR for decades. QF operated YVR-SFO-HNL-SYD in the 80s. These rights were granted to Australia by both the US and Canada.


25 Tootallsd : Now that's a really horrendous waste of money and an eyesore to boot.
26 Atmx2000 : Not unless Canada can ensure its immigrant population isn't a threat to the US. After all the millenium bomber was caught crossing the US-Canadian bo
27 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Maybe even minefields would be useful. Ask Kim in North Korea, I'm sure he'll be happy provide some valuable know-how...
28 Goaliemn : i've had many friends move here from Canada and if you have a job that offers benefits, its not much different than Canada, health wise. If you have
29 AC777LR : Get off the glue, cuz that's what your on. A fence will do nothing, what is your problem, people like you are just pathetic.
30 Threepoint : What a bigoted comment. You should start worrying about your own population, immigrant or otherwise, before you direct your ill-advised sermons north
31 Sebring : I always laugh when I hear some American propose a fence or a wall between Canada and the U.S. I'd like to nominate you to build the wall down the mi
32 LTBEWR : If full freedoms as to flight rights existed, there goes AC to be replaced by all of the USA companies. I am quite sure the unions at AC won't let it
33 Atmx2000 : While that might be true, I tend to be less unconcerned about the people crossing the Southern border simply because it is difficult for Islamic terr
34 Sebring : That's crazy. How hard is it to take a flight from Europe to Mexico City, take an internal flight to a border city, and walk across into the States?
35 Goaliemn : I will agree on this point. Its almost too easy to get asylum in Canada, compared to the US rules. Many could sneak into canada under some of these c
36 HanginOut : This isn't the big problem it used to be as only if people arrive in Canada by air or sea from overseas, are allowed to claim asylum. The US and Cana
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