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No AF To Australia?  
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6265 posts, RR: 9
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

I was doing some searching, and realized Air France does not serve anywhere in Australia or New Zealand. Has AF ever served places such as Sydney or Auckland, or would they ever? Seems to me like they could make a route to Sydney from Paris via somewhere in Asia quite successful. Thanks in advance!

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Air France codeshare the flights to Australia on Qantas metal just like Qantas codeshare services to France on Air France metal....
Qantas would like to return to France (CDG) with its own metal but had no choice but to pulled out of the market course it wasnt given rights to fly daily services  Sad
I dont see Air France ever operating to Australia unless its a special charter flight which we have had in the past....
I'll post a few examples.....

During the Rugby World Cup Big grin

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Photo © Micheil Keegan
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Photo © Norbert Genci


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Photo © Glenn Stewart
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Photo © Glenn Stewart


Replacing Aircalin services Big grin

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Photo © Sam Chui
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Photo © Micheil Keegan


Concorde Around the World Service Big grin

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Photo © Craig Murray
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Photo © Brian Wilkes


Boeing demonstration flights for Qantas Big grin

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Photo © Gabriel Savit
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Photo © Scott Lindsell


When Air France served Australia with scheduled services (I believe) Big grin

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Photo © Morris Biondi


During the 2000 Olympics Big grin

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Photo © Brian Wilkes


& during diversions Big grin

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Photo © Micheil Keegan



I hope this helps.....  Smile
EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offline767ER From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

Yes AF did serve SYD albiet briefly when UTA went down the toilet....not sure the dates, etc.....in the 90s i am sure. AOM also flew to SYD.


Aircraft flown:F27,Viscount. EMB120, SAAB340, ATR70, 737-200.737-300,DC8, DC10,747-100,747-200,747-300,747-400, A320, A3
User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

AF took over the UTA 747 route (twice weekly):
CDG-SIN-CGK-SYD-NOU-CGK-SIN-CDG
CDG-SIN-CGK-NOU-SYD-CGK-SIN-CDG
Service did not last long as even UTA didn't carry many SYD originating passengers (flights were usually full with NOU originators).

There was also a once weekly UTA DC10 flight:
SYD-NOU-AKL-PPT. The aircraft was based in NOU (cabin crew based in NOU, pilots in PPT) and operated in an all economy configuration- the aircraft was switched out every year with the CDG based fleet. NOU-NRT fligths also operated.

AOM then picked up the Paris route with DC10's, then A330's:
ORY-CMB-SYD-NOU- the route was then to change to CDG-LAX-NOU-SYD, but maybe only 1 or 2 flights operated before AOM ceased operations.


User currently offlineFlyjetstar From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

What happened to UTA?
Did it go under or merge with AF?


User currently offlineAvatordon From United States of America, joined May 2006, 239 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

It was acquired by AF in the 90s. Never flew it, but understand it was a great company, very good service.

User currently offlineBestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6953 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
during diversions

During Diversions... how would AF divert to Australia?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineVHVXB From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 5520 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 6):
During Diversions... how would AF divert to Australia?

Read the caption in the pic. This a/c was diverted from Noumea which is in New Caledonia. Noumea is 2 to 3 hour flight from SYD thats why it was diverted to SYD.


User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3721 times:

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 3):
AOM then picked up the Paris route with DC10's, then A330's:
ORY-CMB-SYD-NOU

Was the return NOU-SYD-CMB-ORY or NOU-CMB-ORY? I remember having seen an old sign near CMB airport where they where (still) advertising the AOM flights not only to Paris but also to Sydney and Noumea.



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5191 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3701 times:

AF flew to AKL briefly with a 744 which replaced the UTA service, this was around 1993.

An AF744 diverted to AKL in 2000 from NOU, stayed here for a few days during some strike in NOU.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3664 times:

Quoting SW733 (Thread starter):
Has AF ever served places such as Sydney or Auckland

As mentionned in several posts above, UTA did serve AKL, SYD and MEL.
After merging with AF, flights to SYD were stopped in 1993, when AF started its reorganization and cut several unprofitable routes.

Quoting Swissgabe (Reply 8):
Was the return NOU-SYD-CMB-ORY or NOU-CMB-ORY?

AOM flight was ORY-CMB-SYD-NOU / NOU-SYD-CMB-ORY

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
Qantas would like to return to France (CDG) with its own metal but had no choice but to pulled out of the market course it wasnt given rights to fly daily services

That was not a question of frequencies or traffic rights. QANTAS flights to CDG (just like AF's or AOM ones) were never profitable.
The line was closed and reopened regularly in the past 20 years.
The fact is that LHR attracts most of the market Europe / Australia and with the competition of all the Asian and Middle Eastern carriers, there is already far too much offer on that route.
QF had poor results in Premium Classes, and a very low yield even with high loads in Y, and their flight, routing CDG-FRA-SIN-SYD was not attractive for Business/First Class passengers.

Today, the Codeshare AF/QF via SIN work well. Very well for both airlines, according to the last results. This agreement works so well that it should be extended to more cities in Australia, "Flying Blue" FF will be allowed to use their miles on domestic QF flights, and AF & QF are in talks to open new codeshare flights via China.


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

I know I am dreaming but I would love to see AF in NZ. After all, the french *nearly* colonised New Zealand from Akaroa. Imagine if the final documents for colonisation of the South Island got here 4 months before they really did. Could we have seen AF flying into an Akaroa International Airport, lol. I guess we'll never know.

User currently offlineGuyBetsy1 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 838 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 3):
AF took over the UTA 747 route (twice weekly):
CDG-SIN-CGK-SYD-NOU-CGK-SIN-CDG
CDG-SIN-CGK-NOU-SYD-CGK-SIN-CDG
Service did not last long as even UTA didn't carry many SYD originating passengers (flights were usually full with NOU originators).

UTA never had traffic rights between SIN and SYD. Only SIN-NOU. But it was okay to carry passengers PAR-SIN/SYD/NOU.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5552 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3090 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
That was not a question of frequencies or traffic rights.

Yes it was, according to the QF press release!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
QF had poor results in Premium Classes, and a very low yield even with high loads in Y, and their flight, routing CDG-FRA-SIN-SYD was not attractive for Business/First Class passengers

It had poor Premium Classes loads because it could not operate daily. The routing changed many time over the years. It did NOT operate via FRA for years before services was withdrawn.

QF have said if the mooted Oz/EU open skys goes ahead it will be back at CDG asap.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2071 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
Air France codeshare the flights to Australia on Qantas metal just like Qantas codeshare services to France on Air France metal....
Qantas would like to return to France (CDG) with its own metal but had no choice but to pulled out of the market course it wasnt given rights to fly daily services

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that they each code share on each other to Australia and France but AF doesn't fly to Australia and QF doesn't fly to France? That's a neat trick. Did I misunderstand your explanation?

Cheers


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5191 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 14):

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that they each code share on each other to Australia and France but AF doesn't fly to Australia and QF doesn't fly to France? That's a neat trick. Did I misunderstand your explanation?

That is indeed correct! NZ and LH do the same NZ codeshare with LH from AKL to FRA via LAX, SFO, HKG and SIN and vv, LH also codeshare on TG services to AKL via BKK.

I'm sure there must be others aswell.


User currently offlineJupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

For the AF/QF codeshare, QF do the flights from Australia to SIN and AF do the SIN/CDG sector. It is by most accounts a very succesful operation for both carriers and as has been mentioned they are looking for other routes to co-operate on. My cash would be via HKG.

The reference to AF diversions to SYD from NOU is not entirely correct. The aircraft were flown to SYD to escape from cyclones that were heading for Noumea, AF chose SYD, I believe the last time something similar happened Air Calin chose to go to BNE.

RL


User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6900 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 9):
AF flew to AKL briefly with a 744 which replaced the UTA service

and the dc10 also. I have seen an AF DC10 at AKL.


User currently offlineVHVXB From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 5520 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 16):
It is by most accounts a very succesful operation for both carriers and as has been mentioned they are looking for other routes to co-operate on. My cash would be via HKG

Intresting stuff here jupiter. But wouldn't it be better for QF to operate with CX rather than AF as QF and CX are Oneworld Allinace members

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 16):
The reference to AF diversions to SYD from NOU is not entirely correct. The aircraft were flown to SYD to escape from cyclones that were heading for Noumea, AF chose SYD, I believe the last time something similar happened Air Calin chose to go to BNE

Thanks for clarifying that jupiter i just posted what i thought was correct according to the caption in those pics


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Would new, more efficient, long-haul aircraft, such as the 787 or the A350 make it profitable for both AF and QF to fly directly between CDG and SYD or MEL? Also, could the 787 or A350 make nonstop, round-trip flights between CDG and SYD or MEL?

User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4599 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
That was not a question of frequencies or traffic rights. QANTAS flights to CDG (just like AF's or AOM ones) were never profitable.

Incorrect, it was directly due to the fact that QF wanted to increase from 3 x weekly to daily and were denied by the French Government.

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 18):
Intresting stuff here jupiter. But wouldn't it be better for QF to operate with CX rather than AF as QF and CX are Oneworld Allinace members

Due to QF having a major hub in SIN, it makes sense to transfer them to Air France. That way, it's a one stop service to CDG.

I don't believe CX flies nonstop from SIN-CDG.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2501 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 20):
Incorrect, it was directly due to the fact that QF wanted to increase from 3 x weekly to daily and were denied by the French Government.



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Yes it was, according to the QF press release!

According to "QF press release" ... you said it !  Wink


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5552 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
According to "QF press release" ... you said it !

???????

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4599 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
According to "QF press release" ... you said it !

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2004/jun04/3101

The quote from the above QF press release is -

"Qantas is restricted to operating only three flights to Paris a week under the bilateral agreement between Australia and France," Mr Borghetti said.

"This limited schedule has made it difficult to achieve profitability on the route and the losses we are incurring are simply not sustainable."

... and there we have it.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2370 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 23):
"Qantas is restricted to operating only three flights to Paris a week under the bilateral agreement between Australia and France," Mr Borghetti said.

"This limited schedule has made it difficult to achieve profitability on the route and the losses we are incurring are simply not sustainable."

When loads and demand on a 3 x Weekly frequencies are too low to make the route profitable, how could a Daily flight make it ?


25 Parisien : So, does anyone know the then frequency of the UTA flights to Melbourne ? And route ? only one person so far evoked the MEL flights (and many the SYD
26 Jupiter2 : The MEL flights for UTA were add ons to a SYD service. I am not positive but I believe that UTA may have gone to a 3rd frequency which routed CDG/SIN/
27 Gemuser : Well according to people on here and elsewhere, some of whom should know, you only really attract a worthwhile volume of preimum pax when you offer d
28 VHVXB : This makes sense as they currently doing. What I was trying to say the option of having codeshare flights out of HKG to CDG with CX, would it make mo
29 Post contains images ClassicLover : Premium passengers. QF almost always begin a destination with 3 x weekly to test the waters and then go daily if the test is working out. This has be
30 VHVXB : Thanks for clearing that up Classic. I have a clear understanding of what your saying
31 FlySSC : This is true on short and medium range flights (several frequencies with smaller planes are better than limited frequencies with a bigger aircraft).
32 Gemuser : Source? I see no reason for it to be less true on long haul. Business customers still want to go on the day they want to go and will connect if neces
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