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SN Brussels @ LHR  
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-020606b.htm

Quote:
In an interview to Trends / Tendances, Viscount Etienne Davignon, Chairman of SN Airholding - the parent of both SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express - said that SN might resume flights to London Heathrow, currently operated by British Airways under a codeshare agreement.

However, is is reported that SN management are hesitatant because of fears that such a move would create tensions with British Airways.

SN Brussels already has a weekly LHR flight (nightstopper on a Saturday) so I guess its on about regular multiple daily flights


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15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNijltje From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Do SN have slots @lhr. nevertheless SN can handle definitely 4-5 flights with an avro and all high yield passengers. I would love to see SN flying to LHR.

User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

this route is ultra competitive I really don't see how it would work out for SN!

User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2277 times:

Quoting Humberside (Thread starter):
SN Brussels already has a weekly LHR flight (nightstopper on a Saturday)

Why does it operate this single weekly flight?


User currently offlineNijltje From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Competitive? I don't think so. For the moment you have only 2 airlines BMI and BA. BMI is not doing well and losing a lot of customers. BA is doing well but only because SN is providing a lot of passengers to BA. Early morning flights are starting from 200€ min.

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7632 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

If I am not mistaken, there is 1x weekly BRU-LHR-BRU. The LRH-BRU leg is on Sunday morning around 06:50 or so. I took this flight in July 2004 and it was an Avro RJ85; load was quite high, service was awesome and the fare was unbelievably cheap: 35 pounds including all taxes and charges (I booked quite in advance). In addition, I understand that SN codeshares on BA's own LHR-BRU flights. It will be great if SN adds more flights to LHR using its own metal.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Include Eurostar and yeah it's competitive whatever you say!

Sn flying on it's own to LHR does not make sense. BA and BMI are so well established that they are going to trounce SNBA. BA has the advantage of being able to feed passengers on its extensive network! BMI is a little bit cheaper and is able to do quit well well yield wise I believe (Why did they maintain the Business class to Brussels whereas they axed it on most of their other routes?)


And don't forget Virgin-Express tried and failed a few years ago!


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7632 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

In the 2004 flight I took, a lot of the passengers who boarded in LHR were bound for African destinations. With SN's competitive service, perhaps it can add some more flights and attract pax flying between London and Africa.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineEstablished02 From Belgium, joined Jan 2002, 536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

> SN Brussels already has a weekly LHR flight (nightstopper on a Saturday)

SN3831 day6 BRU-LHR 18:55-19:15
SN3832 day7 LHR-BRU 07:00-09:05

Obviously any slot at LHR is valuable, but such a schedule during the weekend probably does not attract too much business traffic.

> such a move would create tensions with British Airways.

SN could possibly operate a few LHR frequencies themselves instead of BA. But their concern about creating tensions with BA suggests that they would add frequencies of their own.

> Competitive? I don't think so. For the moment you have only 2 airlines BMI and BA.

There is already a lot of capacity on the market, especially if you include Eurostar, which has a seemingly endless capacity to sell return tickets as low as 80 EUR (all inclusive).

BA 8 daily to LHR
BD 7 daily to LHR
VLM 6 daily to LCY
SN 2 daily to LGW
Eurostar 11 daily to Waterloo Station!

With currently 34 daily connections to London, there may be not too much need for additional capacity.

> In the 2004 flight I took, a lot of the passengers who boarded in LHR were bound for African destinations.

Perhaps the current agreement between BA and SN is commercially a bit disappointing for SN, especially in regards with those BA flights that connect with SN's African network.

BA throws a lot of cheap fares on the market (as from 60-70 EUR one way all incl.), but their first morning flight out of BRU and out LHR tend to be sold at a much higher fare (150+ EUR one way all incl.). These are exactly the flights that would connect with SN's African flights.

The ideal schedule between LHR and Africa:
BA388 LHR-BRU 07:00-09:10 + SN AFRICAN DEPARTURES as from 10:30
SN AFRICAN ARRIVALS as from 05:30 + BA389 BRU-LHR 07:55-08:15

When you do a search on LHR-BRU-AFRICA then you can sometimes see how SN is offering very cheap fares on connections that require an overnight at BRU. However the optimal (same day) connections (by using BA388+BA389) often come at a higher fare (e.g. +75GBP per segment = an extra 200+ EUR for a return ticket).

Example:

LHR-BRU-EBB EBB-BRU-LHR (09+27/11/2006)

183 GBP + 183 GBP + taxes
Requires overnight in BRU on departure + BA391 10:05-10:25 on the return

258 GBP + 183 GBP + taxes
BA388 07:00-09:10 on departure + BA391 10:05-10:25 on the return

540 GBP + 540 GBP + taxes
BA388 07:00-09:10 on departure + BA389 07:55-08:15 on the return

So it appears that SN may have a fare handicap on AFRICA-LHR, compared to its main competitors AF and KL, due to a lack of cheap capacity on the morning flights. This is what may motivate them to add LHR services with their own aircraft. But just like with CDG and FRA it may probably be limited to one or two frequencies per day.


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

What was the agreement with BA when SN Brussels Airlines was formed? Did SN actually sell its slots or more wisely lease them out for some time. If BA did use its own slots for other purposes than BRU and now has to return SN's slots to its owner, they may not be able to be present on the market anyhow.

Anybody got factuals about that agreement at the inception of the young Belgian carrier?



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

SN Brussels Airlines inherited not less than 63 weekly slots at LHR from Sabena in 2001.

All but one were converted into hard needed cash by selling them to LHR-based carriers in desperate need of slots for expansion: 42 weekly slots went to BA, 20 weekly slots were picked up by VS. Only the Saturday evening to Sunday morning slot was kept as nobody showed interest to buy it.

I suppose that since code-share partner BA is deliberately keeping the price up on their early morning flight(s) to prevent SN from draining pax for EBB and NBO from LHR, SN would be interested in operating an early morning flight itself on the 3 days it flies to these 2 African destinations.

Getting slots at LHR is a difficult venture and BA will not be of great assistance to SN, but SRB is a share-holder of SN too so I could imagine VS be willing to let SN lease back on of their old slots 3 times a week to offer a return flight which would leave BRU for LHR at around 6:30AM to get back by 9:00AM or so, conveniently timed to connect with the English speaking East African destinations of SN.

Of course, such a move will cause serious tensions with BA, which is SN's codeshare partner on ALL British destinations: BHX, BRS,LHR, LGW, MAN and NCL.... as well as on BLL (through BA franchise partner Sun-air) so I suppose SN will carefully have to evaluate their options in case of negative consequences before they decide on whether or not to proceed with this idea...


User currently offlineEstablished02 From Belgium, joined Jan 2002, 536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

How crucial is it for SN to improve its access to LHR in particular, rather than building up the required operations at an alternative airport in the London region?

I assume that passengers that travel with SN through BRU are not using LHR in order to connect with another carrier. They live in London or they visit London.

Why can SN's connection with LGW not provide a structural solution to optimally feed their African network out of the London region?

BRU-LGW SN2121 07:00-06:55
LGW-BRU SN2122 07:40-09:50

Unfortunately SN's current LGW schedule does not seem to be perfect either. SN2121 may depart a bit too early and SN2122 may arrive back in BRU a bit too late to provide optimal connecting opportunities with all of their African flights.

What is the minimum connecting time to transfer between 2 SN flights at BRU's Terminal B (Non-Schengen)?

Similar to the CDG operation, it could be an idea to contract a LGW based carrier to operate an early LGW-BRU-LGW (slots?), in addition to SN's existing BRU-LGW-BRU.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Is not the BA / SN relationship much more complex than simply BA operating SN code share flights on the BRU-LHR route? For example on the BRU-BHX route there are five daily code share flights, SN2050/BA4970, SN2038/BA4958, SN2040/BA4960, SN2044/BA4964, and SN2048/BA4968. All these flights are operated by SN metal.

So if SN unilaterally brakes their code share agreement with BA on the BRU-LHR, are they threatened with the loss of their code share agreement on the BRU-BHX and, possibly, other routes? Could this be why they do not wish to 'create tensions with BA'?


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

I always thought there was a special relationship between SN and BA. Maybe now that TV has merged with SN and that the management is more Virgin flavored, this relationship has soured? Otherwise I'm sure they could find a gentlemen's agreement within the framework of their existing cooperation.


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineJambo From Tanzania, joined Dec 2004, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

What are the possibilities of SN introducing flights to English speaking East African Country of Tanzania?

Probably this route BRU-NBO-DAR (with NBO -DAR being an extension) or BRU-JRO-DAR

Keeping in mind the vast tourism potential of Tanzania (including its Zanzibar Island), what do you guys think..Would SN start flights to Tanzania soon?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 10):
SN Brussels Airlines inherited not less than 63 weekly slots at LHR from Sabena in 2001.

All but one were converted into hard needed cash by selling them to LHR-based carriers in desperate need of slots for expansion: 42 weekly slots went to BA, 20 weekly slots were picked up by VS. Only the Saturday evening to Sunday morning slot was kept as nobody showed interest to buy it.


Thank you for this very interesting information - suddenly everything makes sense concerning SN (lack of) service to LHR with its own metal....even the once per week "saturday night special" is explained. It certainly explains why SN is stuck with code share deals into LHR and thats unlikely to change in the near term future. SN's deal with BA is a very good one under this scheme....SN benefits from its code on the LHR services, and BA benefits from its code on everything operated by SN to the UK.


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